Exaggerated or Not?

[mjkacmom]

29 minutes ago, gammite said:

 

and you took my statement out of context.

 

the correct statement is that if the ship was getting ready to leave and i was not on board she is to stay on the ship.  (context: pier runners)

 

not that she is not allowed to get off of the ship.  smh. lol.  rotf...

This is what you wrote, not me:

 

my partner and i had a conversation just last night pier runners and i told her under no circumstances is she to leave the ship if i am not aboard.  i will find a way to get back to her.  she almost in tears said, "i wouldn't want to be on the ship by myself.  something might happen to me.  i would need you to find me."

 

So your partner wouldn’t want to be on the ship without you because something could happen to her. Okay. I’m the immature one...

[gammite]

9 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

This is what you wrote, not me:

 

my partner and i had a conversation just last night pier runners and i told her under no circumstances is she to leave the ship if i am not aboard.  i will find a way to get back to her.  she almost in tears said, "i wouldn't want to be on the ship by myself.  something might happen to me.  i would need you to find me."

 

So your partner wouldn’t want to be on the ship without you because something could happen to her. Okay. I’m the immature one...

 

i am choosing not to continue down your immature path.  if you can not discuss the matters at hand without turning to veiled insults it is not worth discussing with you.

 

this matter is serious enough without people resulting to insults, straw men and taking words out of context.  it is clear that you are unable to discuss this matter in a mature context. 

 

this is my last response to you.

[navybankerteacher]

59 minutes ago, clo said:

The news is full of these things.  And it seems that the majority of men/boys aren't getting the appropriate punishment because our culture has inured us to this.  Thanks so much for speaking up as you have direct experience with this issue.

PS: And, no, I don't think the death penalty is appropriate.  They weren't murdered.

There are a number of arguments for/against the death penalty - but exploring that tangent would really get everyone going. Seriously, though, what would you think about castration (either chemical or physical)?  To the extent that punishment for any crime should be as much about deterrence as revenge, I think a civilized society should consider it.

[DarrenM]

5 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Every single person in this thread has said that nothing the girl did should in any way detract or reduce the culpability of the criminals or their consequences, yet you keep dishonestly portraying it as otherwise.

Oh I think I am doing ok on this thread for a change.

 

I suppose I can cope with being accused of being dishonest on this thread.

[Cruzaholic41]

Wow. I pray that poor girl doesn’t find this thread. 😞 

[clo]

34 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

There are a number of arguments for/against the death penalty - but exploring that tangent would really get everyone going. Seriously, though, what would you think about castration (either chemical or physical)?  To the extent that punishment for any crime should be as much about deterrence as revenge, I think a civilized society should consider it.

It's been shown that rape isn't about sex but rather about power. So castration wouldn't be the answer IMO.  

https://sapac.umich.edu/article/sexual-assault-misconceptions

[cruisemom42]

Ahh, now we see your true colors fairly dripping from your words.

 

3 hours ago, gammite said:

 

my partner and i had a conversation just last night pier runners and i told her under no circumstances is she to leave the ship if i am not aboard.  i will find a way to get back to her.  she almost in tears said, "i wouldn't want to be on the ship by myself.  something might happen to me.  i would need you to find me."

 

and i told her to stay her butt on the ship.  and if she was not on the ship i would stay in port until i found her.

 

 

You "told her" to "stay her butt on the ship"????  

 

Not "My wife and I had a conversation about this and we came to the joint conclusion that the smart thing to do in these circumstances would be....."  

 

Is she your wife or your child/dependent that she feels she couldn't be on the ship by herself? 

 

My goodness, I have cruised solo for quite a while now -- traveled to places like Egypt and Turkey and Jordan on my own. Heck, I might have even walked down a dark street after dinner back to my hotel. It's a good thing I wasn't raped by anyone, because you would surely blame me.

 

 

1 hour ago, gammite said:

if you can not discuss these matters maturely perhaps this is not the proper venue for you.  reddit may be your cup of tea.

 

Back atcha.  You are the one who keeps introducing non sequiturs into this discussion. Most of us have been focused pretty clearly on one thing.

[clo]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

Ahh, now we see your true colors fairly dripping from your words.

 

 

You "told her" to "stay her butt on the ship"????  

 

Not "My wife and I had a conversation about this and we came to the joint conclusion that the smart thing to do in these circumstances would be....."  

 

Is she your wife or your child/dependent that she feels she couldn't be on the ship by herself? 

 

My goodness, I have cruised solo for quite a while now -- traveled to places like Egypt and Turkey and Jordan on my own. Heck, I might have even walked down a dark street after dinner back to my hotel. It's a good thing I wasn't raped by anyone, because you would surely blame me.

 

 

 

Back atcha.  You are the one who keeps introducing non sequiturs into this discussion. Most of us have been focused pretty clearly on one thing.

EXTREMELY well said, mom.

[DarrenM]

Agreed.

 

I would probably end up with a black eye if "i told my wife" to do anything.

 

Nobody tells her what to do. 

 

And I wouldnt dream of suggesting otherwise. 

[DarrenM]

Discussions about retribution the death penalty castration etc are irrelevant until you or your family member are on the wrong end of a sexual assault.

 

I dont believe in the death penalty but if my wife or my kids were sexually assaulted I would be out for the most extreme revenge possible.

 

Just as well i am not a law maker.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, clo said:

It's been shown that rape isn't about sex but rather about power. So castration wouldn't be the answer IMO.  

https://sapac.umich.edu/article/sexual-assault-misconceptions

Quite true - but knowledge of it as a statutory punishment - rather than some to-be-determined sentence might serve as a deterrent, and would certainly demonstrate the society’s non-acceptance of the crime as just “ something that happened”.

 

In any event, it would fairly effectively stop recidivism.

[clo]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

In any event, it would fairly effectively stop recidivism.

But would it then escalate to murder?  Or beating the person beyond belief?  I'd rather be raped . Honestly.

[Toofarfromthesea]

4 hours ago, DarrenM said:

Oh I think I am doing ok on this thread for a change.

 

I suppose I can cope with being accused of being dishonest on this thread.

 

Then quote a message in this thread where anyone said that the criminals should be held less responsible for their crime.  You can't because no one said it.  

Prove me wrong.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Toofarfromthesea

[DarrenM]

I dont need to prove you wrong, everyone can read your views on this topic. And mine. And everyone elses.

 

 

[DarrenM]

and to summerise some of the views, "the victim is partly to blame and to say otherwise is political correctness gone mad."

 

Its a fine line between blame shaming the victim, and being an apologist for the sex offender.

 

A very fine line.

[Bloodgem]

I see this thread is still dragging on with the same old mantras of 'It should not have happened no matter what the girl did' and accusations of victim shaming.

 

11 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

Wow. I pray that poor girl doesn’t find this thread. 😞 

I agree because it does not help the family when posters keep insisting  'It should not have happened no matter what she did'.

 

The fact of the matter is it did happen and posters did need to discuss how did it happen? Why did it happen? How do we stop it from happening on other cruises.

I'm not sure if you have heard about the Rochdale child sex abuse ring scandal.  At an inquiry into how the Rochdale child sex abuse ring had happened it was revealed that the majority of men convicted of sexual grooming, at the time, were Pakistani. Some Pakistani elders knew that Pakistani men were involved in sexual grooming and choose to ignore this fact. Hence Rochdale happened. Yes I know that other factors contribute to the Rochdale scandal, before anyone mentions the police and deprived; dysfunctional families.

 

The fact of the matter is that whilst posters keep insisting on 'It should not have happened' this could happen again.

 

Ok, we are all agreed that it should not have happened. So how about some suggestions on how we stop it from happening in the future.  How about a warning in the ships newsletter on the day of boarding?

 

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, DarrenM said:

and to summerise some of the views, "the victim is partly to blame and to say otherwise is political correctness gone mad."

 

Its a fine line between blame shaming the victim, and being an apologist for the sex offender.

 

A very fine line.

However, a person with vision can see a fine line and a person with sense will not confuse the two sides of a line (no matter how fine).

 

To say that someone who puts himself in harm’s way by undeniably irresponsible behavior has absolutely no responsibility if harm comes his way is simply failing to understand the concept of responsibility.

 

Pointing out the nature of responsibility is neither “blame shaming the victim” nor “being an apologist for the sex offender” — it is simply exercising common sense.

[Cruiser_1977]

@Bloodgem How would the cruise lines word the warning? "Take heed - rape happens!" "Beware of Rapists" "Don't go into a cabin with a stranger." "Don't accept drinks/food from strangers." Those are lessons/warnings that should have been discussed with minors prior to boarding by/with their guardians. The trouble is a discussion should be had by parents (guardians) with their children regarding rape, sexual assault, consent, etc. I can't remember a time I went to a hotel/resort and was warned about rape. The discussion parents (not a cruise line, not a bartender, not ship "security") need to be having with their children, of all genders, is about boundaries, choices and responsibility. I'd be willing to bet my life savings that a warning in the "ship newsletter" would have made zero difference in the instance being discussed.

[Bloodgem]

47 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

@Bloodgem How would the cruise lines word the warning? "Take heed - rape happens!" "Beware of Rapists" "Don't go into a cabin with a stranger." "Don't accept drinks/food from strangers." Those are lessons/warnings that should have been discussed with minors prior to boarding by/with their guardians. The trouble is a discussion should be had by parents (guardians) with their children regarding rape, sexual assault, consent, etc. I can't remember a time I went to a hotel/resort and was warned about rape. The discussion parents (not a cruise line, not a bartender, not ship "security") need to be having with their children, of all genders, is about boundaries, choices and responsibility. I'd be willing to bet my life savings that a warning in the "ship newsletter" would have made zero difference in the instance being discussed.

How about 'We know you are on holiday but don't leave your common sense in the cabin' or 'Crimes happened on ships and not just at home'.  

I'm sure the more creative of you could come up with better slogans

[Toofarfromthesea]

6 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

I see this thread is still dragging on with the same old mantras of 'It should not have happened no matter what the girl did' and accusations of victim shaming.

 

I agree because it does not help the family when posters keep insisting  'It should not have happened no matter what she did'.

 

The fact of the matter is it did happen and posters did need to discuss how did it happen? Why did it happen? How do we stop it from happening on other cruises.

I'm not sure if you have heard about the Rochdale child sex abuse ring scandal.  At an inquiry into how the Rochdale child sex abuse ring had happened it was revealed that the majority of men convicted of sexual grooming, at the time, were Pakistani. Some Pakistani elders knew that Pakistani men were involved in sexual grooming and choose to ignore this fact. Hence Rochdale happened. Yes I know that other factors contribute to the Rochdale scandal, before anyone mentions the police and deprived; dysfunctional families.

 

The fact of the matter is that whilst posters keep insisting on 'It should not have happened' this could happen again.

 

Ok, we are all agreed that it should not have happened. So how about some suggestions on how we stop it from happening in the future.  How about a warning in the ships newsletter on the day of boarding?

 

 

 

 

Good points.  One way to reduce the number of this kind of incident, both on cruise ships and - well everywhere - is to acknowledge that in the real world there are always predators looking for the weakest animals in the herd.  Don't be the weakest animal, and certainly don't MAKE yourself the weakest animal through your behavior.  And if you are responsible for someone who is the weakest animal in the herd (like a 15 year old) take that responsibility seriously, and prevent them from becoming even more vulnerable.  To ignore these simple universal and time-tested rules, but instead rail against the reality about predators, and then act as if they don't exist, is foolish.

And when the predator is caught, unleash the full power of every available legal consequence on them.  But by then it is too late to undo the trauma and aftermath of the victim.  People have understood this basic truth for a long long time.  Ben Franklin sad it best, IMO:  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Maybe we should be teaching the parable of the scorpion and the frog.  The scorpion did the stinging, but the frog was stupid for putting himself in that position.  This used to be part of the general wisdom of mankind.  But now we are modern and 'wise' and want to teach people it's ok to maximize your risk.  It is as if crime prevention has become a discredited notion.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Toofarfromthesea

[Toofarfromthesea]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

However, a person with vision can see a fine line and a person with sense will not confuse the two sides of a line (no matter how fine).

 

To say that someone who puts himself in harm’s way by undeniably irresponsible behavior has absolutely no responsibility if harm comes his way is simply failing to understand the concept of responsibility.

 

Pointing out the nature of responsibility is neither “blame shaming the victim” nor “being an apologist for the sex offender” — it is simply exercising common sense.

 

And there is the problem, as common sense has increasingly become an oxymoron, as sense has become less and less common.  As we see in some of the posts in this thread.

[Toofarfromthesea]

2 hours ago, JennyB1977 said:

@Bloodgem How would the cruise lines word the warning? "Take heed - rape happens!" "Beware of Rapists" "Don't go into a cabin with a stranger." "Don't accept drinks/food from strangers." Those are lessons/warnings that should have been discussed with minors prior to boarding by/with their guardians. The trouble is a discussion should be had by parents (guardians) with their children regarding rape, sexual assault, consent, etc. I can't remember a time I went to a hotel/resort and was warned about rape. The discussion parents (not a cruise line, not a bartender, not ship "security") need to be having with their children, of all genders, is about boundaries, choices and responsibility. I'd be willing to bet my life savings that a warning in the "ship newsletter" would have made zero difference in the instance being discussed.

 

This isn't just a cruise thing, or a hotel thing, or a vacation thing.  It is a life thing and is ever present.  Kids need to be taught to be prudent starting at a very young age.  By their parents.  

[mjkacmom]

3 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

This isn't just a cruise thing, or a hotel thing, or a vacation thing.  It is a life thing and is ever present.  Kids need to be taught to be prudent starting at a very young age.  By their parents.  

And most are, but still make mistakes. For those that think teens need to be within eyesight of their parents, and not be given independence, aren’t thinking about their safety when they go off to college. I firmly believe predators prey on the vulnerable, and kids who have been bubble wrapped and haven’t learned situational awareness are raising future victims. Now kids can’t even walk to the bus stop, yet in my childhood my parents never even knew where I was. I learned to trust my instincts.

[calliopecruiser]

On 9/12/2019 at 2:58 PM, gammite said:

she almost in tears said, "i wouldn't want to be on the ship by myself.  something might happen to me.  i would need you to find me."

 

and i told her to stay her butt on the ship.  and if she was not on the ship i would stay in port until i found her.

Well, that says so much about you and about how you view women.  It's so much clearer now.

 

'Nuff said. 

[Cruzaholic41]

3 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

I firmly believe predators prey on the vulnerable, and kids who have been bubble wrapped and haven’t learned situational awareness are raising future victims. 

 

Likewise, think about today's can’t-say-no parents who are raising kids, especially boys, to get everything they want. Hmmm. Wonder how that’s going to work when real world rejection from girls occurs.