Dog bite on board

[Bloodgem]

I may be wrong but I feel a wheelchair user does not need to take their service dog on a cruise with them. ( Let the dog have it's own vacation whist it's owner is on a cruise)

Most cruise lines insist that wheelchair users need to be self-sufficient if they are travelling on their own or to travel with a carer/companion if they are not. As most wheelchair users travel with a carer/companion they do not need their dog unless the carer/companion is only travelling with the wheelchair user to allow the wheelchair user to bypass the cruise line's self-sufficient policy.

[GUT2407]

4 minutes ago, Bloodgem said:

I may be wrong but I feel a wheelchair user does not need to take their service dog on a cruise with them. ( Let the dog have it's own vacation whist it's owner is on a cruise)

Most cruise lines insist that wheelchair users need to be self-sufficient if they are travelling on their own or to travel with a carer/companion if they are not. As most wheelchair users travel with a carer/companion they do not need their dog unless the carer/companion is only travelling with the wheelchair user to allow the wheelchair user to bypass the cruise line's self-sufficient policy.

You are wrong, some people need their dog.

[Bloodgem]

1 hour ago, GUT2407 said:

You are wrong, some people need their dog.

Thank you for replying. Could you please give me an example of when a wheelchair user may need their dog, on a cruise, other than when the carer/companion  is not around? 

I want to be educated about why a wheelchair user would need their dog on a cruise. I totally understand the reasons for a wheelchair user having a dog normally but on a cruise would they still need their dog when everyone has mobile phones theses days. 

[ilikeanswers]

11 hours ago, Lard Greystoke said:

Apart from being with its owner - assuming the owner actually cares for the animal and isn't some narcissistic twit using it as a prop - there is no reason an animal would want to be on a cruise ship.

 

I don't understand how that would make cruising an act of cruelty towards animals. True they may not want to be on a cruise but as pets we make animals do a lot of things they may not want to do (does anyone ask their dog if they want to wear clothes?) that doesn't mean you are being cruel to them.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

I may be wrong but I feel a wheelchair user does not need to take their service dog on a cruise with them. ( Let the dog have it's own vacation whist it's owner is on a cruise)

Most cruise lines insist that wheelchair users need to be self-sufficient if they are travelling on their own or to travel with a carer/companion if they are not. As most wheelchair users travel with a carer/companion they do not need their dog unless the carer/companion is only travelling with the wheelchair user to allow the wheelchair user to bypass the cruise line's self-sufficient policy.

 

2 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

Thank you for replying. Could you please give me an example of when a wheelchair user may need their dog, on a cruise, other than when the carer/companion  is not around? 

I want to be educated about why a wheelchair user would need their dog on a cruise. I totally understand the reasons for a wheelchair user having a dog normally but on a cruise would they still need their dog when everyone has mobile phones theses days. 

A service animal is a medical aid, just like the wheelchair, scooter, walker or crutches are.  The service animal makes the disabled person "self-sufficient".  If a person in a wheelchair also needed an oxygen concentrator, would you not allow them on the ship because they need two medical devices?  That is what a person in a wheelchair with a service dog is, someone with two medical devices.  The service dog eliminates the need for the human care giver.

Edited October 9, 2019 by chengkp75

[chengkp75]

14 hours ago, Lard Greystoke said:

Apart from being with its owner - assuming the owner actually cares for the animal and isn't some narcissistic twit using it as a prop - there is no reason an animal would want to be on a cruise ship.

And here is where you fail to understand the role of a service animal.  We are not asking the dog to "do something it doesn't like", we are asking the dog to perform it's tasks, in an environment that it may not be completely comfortable in.  Most service dogs are eager and willing to perform their trained tasks for their owners, regardless of the circumstances.

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I don't understand how that would make cruising an act of cruelty towards animals. True they may not want to be on a cruise but as pets we make animals do a lot of things they may not want to do (does anyone ask their dog if they want to wear clothes?) that doesn't mean you are being cruel to them.

Again, it's not a question of "want", it's a question of service, which is the service dog's reason for being.  But, yes, being on a cruise ship is not a "cruel and unusual punishment", any more than taking a pet on a boat ride (which many, many dogs enjoy).

[SRF]

BTW, our dogs LOVED cruising on our sailboat.  As did the dogs of a number of people we knew.

[ducklite]

13 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

Not a right to cruise, but the same right to cruise as a person without a disability.

I would absolutely agree with this provided you add in "where reasonable accommodation can be made."

 

There are some people whose disabilities are too profound to make cruises an option for them, and common sense needs to be used.  The father of a friend would be an example.  He has advanced stages of dementia and is incontinent, has a heart problem that flares up now and then when he is under stress (which happens when he's out of his normal environment), has another condition that regularly requires emergency treatment which must be done under sedation and requires a soft or pureed diet, and is in renal failure.  Alone many of those issues would be manageable on a cruise ship.  But combined, that is more than a cruise line should have to reasonably accommodate.

[ilikeanswers]

44 minutes ago, ducklite said:

I would absolutely agree with this provided you add in "where reasonable accommodation can be made."

 

When I was on Aranui I discovered they had disabled cabins. A fellow passenger who had one of these cabins (she wasn't disabled herself though) let us have a little tour. They were very large had a seat in the shower and bars along the walls. The thing that I couldn't help thinking was why did they bother? Aranui's destinations aren't disabled friendly. Just getting of the ship involved a bit of physicality whether it was by tender or a thin rope walkway. On the islands themselves there are no buses or vans just four wheel drives and utes and many of the sights we visited involved traversing over uneven ground even crossing some logs over a creek to get to some temple ruins and speaking of walking there were a number of hiking tours included. The ship itself being a freighter wasn't very stable and could rock dramatically. The ship doesn't have much to do on it so if you can't navigate the islands I don't know how much enjoyment someone with physical disabilites would get out of such a cruise😳.

[ducklite]

4 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

When I was on Aranui I discovered they had disabled cabins. A fellow passenger who had one of these cabins (she wasn't disabled herself though) let us have a little tour. They were very large had a seat in the shower and bars along the walls. The thing that I couldn't help thinking was why did they bother? Aranui's destinations aren't disabled friendly. Just getting of the ship involved a bit of physicality whether it was by tender or a thin rope walkway. On the islands themselves there are no buses or vans just four wheel drives and utes and many of the sights we visited involved traversing over uneven ground even crossing some logs over a creek to get to some temple ruins and speaking of walking there were a number of hiking tours included. The ship itself being a freighter wasn't very stable and could rock dramatically. The ship doesn't have much to do on it so if you can't navigate the islands I don't know how much enjoyment someone with physical disabilites would get out of such a cruise😳.

I guess if you just wanted the view and the salt air?  I do agree with you as I've been to French Polynesia, and it's not at all disabled friendly.  Even the airport where there are no jetways and the only way to get a mobility impaired person onto a plane is by putting them into a food truck lift.

[DarrenM]

Able bodied folk shouldnt really have an opinion on what disabled folk want or need.

 

Unless you know their circumstances our opinions arent valid.

[donaldsc]

If someone's dog bit me on a ship, it better be wearing a life vest.

 

DON

[euro cruiser]

8 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

When I was on Aranui I discovered they had disabled cabins. A fellow passenger who had one of these cabins (she wasn't disabled herself though) let us have a little tour. They were very large had a seat in the shower and bars along the walls. The thing that I couldn't help thinking was why did they bother? Aranui's destinations aren't disabled friendly. Just getting of the ship involved a bit of physicality whether it was by tender or a thin rope walkway. 

 

They bother for people like my brother and my mother, who enjoy the experience of cruising but never get off the ship because it's too difficult or uncomfortable.

 

I'm always struck in these discussions by the gap between what is legal, and what is moral.  As a member of a family with true needs, I'm often annoyed by others who are exercising their legal rights but acting immorally.  For example, the person with a handicapped parking placard who takes up one of the few accessible spaces, but never gets out of their car.   I see this regularly at my local Starbucks where a woman pulls into the only accessible parking spot and sits there playing with her phone while her fully able-bodied child goes in to pick up her order.  She is well within her legal rights, but she's acting immorally by taking up a space someone else needs when she herself does not need it as long as she has someone else to run and fetch for her.

[Lard Greystoke]

11 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And here is where you fail to understand the role of a service animal.  We are not asking the dog to "do something it doesn't like", we are asking the dog to perform it's tasks, in an environment that it may not be completely comfortable in.  Most service dogs are eager and willing to perform their trained tasks for their owners, regardless of the circumstances.

Again, it's not a question of "want", it's a question of service, which is the service dog's reason for being.  But, yes, being on a cruise ship is not a "cruel and unusual punishment", any more than taking a pet on a boat ride (which many, many dogs enjoy).

Perhaps I should have specified that I was referring to that large part of this thread describing animals fraudulently passed off as "service animals" but which are ordinary pets.  Service animals belong everywhere the owner belongs.  But as an owner of an ordinary pet - in case you want to accuse me of being ignorant of that as well - I suspect my dog would much rather be romping in the park than cooped up in an unnatural environment like a cruise ship.  

 

Since these people engaged in fraudulent activities are imposing on their fellow passengers, I think it is not unreasonable to suspect them of being less than fully considerate of their pets as well.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Lard Greystoke
I'm just stupid.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, euro cruiser said:

They bother for people like my brother and my mother, who enjoy the experience of cruising but never get off the ship because it's too difficult or uncomfortable.

 

To be clear I am specifically talking about Aranui in reference to the comment about a cruise line's ability to accommodate and service disabled passengers effectively and personally I don't think Aranui can. 

 

It is a freighter ship that does an expedition style cruise. There is nothing to do on the ship. Even if you just want to watch the scenery the only disabled accessible vantage point was one bar (admittedly with a great widow). The top decks do not have lifts, if you can't climb the usually wet and slippery stairs you won't be able to see the freight action. Not to mention a number of lunches were taken on the islands. If you can't get off the ship the ship restaurant is not opened though they will make you a pack lunch. None of the facilities even the one woman massage and aromatherapy service is opened when the ship is docked because it is assumed no passengers will be on the ship during its docking and apart from two sea days it is docked for the majority of the trip. You would be spending a lot of money to sit in an empty ship doing nothing.

 

If a physically disabled person still finds Aranui appealing then sure book it but I think it is important to acknowledge that Aranui despite having disabled friendly cabins is perhaps in terms of the rest of ship and its itinerary not that well placed to be servicing disabled passengers and that it would be a more difficult and limited trip than a mainstream cruise line. So it does make me question is it really moral to be accepting disabled passengers if the services you can provide are so limited? 

Edited October 10, 2019 by ilikeanswers

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Lard Greystoke said:

Perhaps I should have specified that I was referring to that large part of this thread describing animals fraudulently passed off as "service animals" but which are ordinary pets.  Service animals belong everywhere the owner belongs.  But as an owner of an ordinary pet - in case you want to accuse me of being ignorant of that as well - I suspect my dog would much rather be romping in the park than cooped up in an unnatural environment like a cruise ship.  

 

Since these people engaged in fraudulent activities are imposing on their fellow passengers, I think it is not unreasonable to suspect them of being less than fully considerate of their pets as well.

So, what is the difference between a dog "cooped up on a cruise ship" and a dog cooped up in a hotel in a large city?  And, typically, what pet would not rather be with their owner, regardless of whether that owner is on a ship or in a park, than to be without their owner while their owner is on vacation?  I agree that pets and ESA's don't belong on ships, I disagree with the characterization that having a dog on a ship is in anyway abusive or cruel to the animal.

[Lard Greystoke]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

So, what is the difference between a dog "cooped up on a cruise ship" and a dog cooped up in a hotel in a large city?  And, typically, what pet would not rather be with their owner, regardless of whether that owner is on a ship or in a park, than to be without their owner while their owner is on vacation?  I agree that pets and ESA's don't belong on ships, I disagree with the characterization that having a dog on a ship is in anyway abusive or cruel to the animal.

Perhaps "abusive" and "cruel" are harsh words.  They imply intent of the owner and affect of the animal in ways that are not inherently knowable.

 

Suppose I were to say "stupid" and "pointless"?  Rather than coop up my dog in either a hotel or a cruise ship I let him stay with another pet owner when I'm away.  True that he's not with me but sometimes I'm not in a pet-friendly environment.  Perhaps not even in a pet-humane environment.  Perhaps not always human-friendly.

 

Seems to me that it's stupid and pointless to insist on a pet being in an inappropriate environment when a better one is available...and everyone who can afford to cruise can afford to take the time and effort to locate one.  That is if they're thinking about anything but their own all-important egos.

 

And again, I'm not talking about genuine service dogs.  

 

 

 

[SRF]

As I said before, our dogs LIKED being on boats.

[rugerdog]

On 10/9/2019 at 1:33 PM, donaldsc said:

If someone's dog bit me on a ship, it better be wearing a life vest.

 

DON

 

I heard that suggestion from several fellow pax on the ship . . . 

[GUT2407]

If I were to take my dog anywhere and anyone so much as touched him, I would know who would need more than just a life jacket.

[SRF]

16 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

If I were to take my dog anywhere and anyone so much as touched him, I would know who would need more than just a life jacket.

 

Your dog bites me or my family, YOU may need to be wearing a life jacket.

 

If you take your dog, it better be fit for the public.

 

And yes, I have had many dogs over the years.  But they are well behaved.  And never bite anyone.

 

But having large dogs, you HAVE to have them under control.  It seems the small dogs, people do not bother to train or correct their  behavior.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

2 hours ago, SRF said:

 

Your dog bites me or my family, YOU may need to be wearing a life jacket.

 

If you take your dog, it better be fit for the public.

 

And yes, I have had many dogs over the years.  But they are well behaved.  And never bite anyone.

 

But having large dogs, you HAVE to have them under control.  It seems the small dogs, people do not bother to train or correct their  behavior.

100% correct. Those vicious little FeFe small dogs that look like rats that bite you for no reason at all. Not just a nip either. They bite fast and furious. As for wanting to even pet one would be totally stupid. I see them in the grocery cart were they are not allowed, but no one stops them. A child will want to pet a dog. That can certainly be a big problem. I was just bit by my neighbors German Shepard.  I was taking out the trash can to the front of my driveway. Turned and started to walk back. He charged, jumped and got a hold of my arm. He then cowered down showing his teeth and kept barking and snarling till the owner got him. He was not on a leash. Always loose in the front yard. No longer. I stood frozen with my are stretched out and the palm of my had facing him. I immediately washed it and went to the emergency room. If you ever need rabies shots. They do hurt real bad. I pray it would never ever happen on a cruise.

Vicious Dogs Injuries and deaths from vicious dogs occur regularly. Every jurisdiction has laws aimed at preventing such incidents and punishing dog owners who cause them. Because a dog can inflict severe injury and death, a potentially dangerous or vicious dog can be ordered destroyed or its owner ordered to keep it under very strict conditions.

[rugerdog]

20 minutes ago, twodaywonder said:

If you ever need rabies shots. They do hurt real bad. I pray it would never ever happen on a cruise.

 

twodaywonder:  first of all, thank you for your service.  

 

I'm so sorry you were bitten by your neighbor's dog.  I hope you were not badly injured.

 

With regard to the dog bite on board the cruise ship, the medical department naturally retrieved the paperwork for the dog to confirm the vaccinations were up to date.  That being said, the ship did NOT have rabies shots available on board.  The doctor advised that if a passenger were to want them, he would get in touch with the next port of call and arrange to have them available there.

 

You stated that every jurisdiction has laws regarding dog bites.  That was my original reason for this thread.  Who has jurisdiction over a (service) dog on board a cruise ship?

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, rugerdog said:

You stated that every jurisdiction has laws regarding dog bites.  That was my original reason for this thread.  Who has jurisdiction over a (service) dog on board a cruise ship?

As I've said twice already in this thread, the flag state (the country where the ship is registered) has jurisdiction over an incident like this.

[rugerdog]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As I've said twice already in this thread, the flag state (the country where the ship is registered) has jurisdiction over an incident like this.

 

I understand this to a certain extent, but I'm confused.  If the dog bite laws under the flag state of the ship are the governing rules, then why are these ships subject to the American ADA rules with regard to service animals?

 

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative nor disrespectful to anyone.  Just looking for some clarity since I've never seen this particular situation addressed.