Congress to investigate Carnival Corporation’s handling of COVID-19 on its cruise ships

[PescadoAmarillo]

22 hours ago, npcl said:

She also said the cruise company didn’t brief her on the Diamond Princess Covid-19 outbreak, which she followed on social media.

That is outrageous. 

[travelhound]

On 5/1/2020 at 2:22 PM, mnocket said:

Congressional investigations are, for the most part, a waste of time.  This is nothing more than a political show intended to give Representatives a forum for a news soundbite of them wagging their fingers at the naughty, naughty cruise line.  Nothing substantive will come from this committee.  Meaningful action will only come from the government's regulatory organizations.

Yup, it's nothing more than political grandstanding.

 

[caribill]

14 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

First, the experts say that the plane has a high quality air filtration system that's effective on virus. So, the thinking is that infected people are a danger only to those within 6' of them.

 

Second, pax can be required to wear masks in an airport and on the plane. Not a problem for flights of just a few hours.   The cloth masks that most people are wearing are ineffective in preventing spread of the virus.  It is more pretend to be doing something than actually doing something.

 

Third, airports will impose thermal screening. An infected person is unlikely to be very infectious without an elevated temperature. Particularly while wearing a mask.  An infected person can be infectious without an elevated temperature. Following is from https://www.healthline.com/health-news/50-percent-of-people-with-covid19-not-aware-have-virus

“One of the [pieces of] information that we have confirmed now is that a significant number of individuals that are infected actually remain asymptomatic. That may be as many as 25 percent,” Redfield (CDC) said.

 

Then a few days later, researchers in Iceland reported that 50 percent of their novel coronavirus cases who tested positive had no symptoms. The testing had been conducted by deCODE, a subsidiary of the U.S. Biotech company Amgen.

 

In another new reportTrusted Source, the CDC stated that researchers in Singapore identified seven clusters of cases in which presymptomatic transmission is the most likely explanation for the occurrence of secondary cases.

 

That report was backed up by a studyTrusted Source published in mid-April that concluded that people with no symptoms are the source of 44 percent of diagnosed COVID-19 cases.

 

Compare that to a cruise of 7-21 days. Lot's of time for a sick person to be infectious. You will have to take off the masks to eat and drink in public. Unless you have room service for everything.

 

How many people are going to constantly wash their hands or wear gloves over 7-21 days?

 

Then, there's the positive air pressure in the cabins.

 

So much harder to social distance on an economy cruise. They're packed like sardines in the public areas.

 

Let's be honest, it is a lot harder to be safe on a ship. The odds of getting infected on a 3k pax ship is much higher than a 300 pax plane.  Over 500 TSA agents have tested positive. You might have a better chance of being infected before you get on the plane than when on the plane.

 

 

 

 

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, caribill said:

 The cloth masks that most people are wearing are ineffective in preventing spread of the virus.  It is more pretend to be doing something than actually doing something.... An infected person can be infectious without an elevated temperature...

 

Airlines should distribute 3-layer procedural masks to the pax. They're effective in stopping splatter. Obviously, not as effective as N95 masks. But, they're have to do until N95 masks are available in numbers.

 

Please note that the epidemic has been defeated in the East Asian countries where the people wear masks, among other things.

 

I find it hard to believe that people with no symptoms can be very infectious. Yes, people without symptoms can test positive. Yes, people on the verge of symptoms can be infectious. But, is it possible that a person without any sign of the body's response (elevated temperature) can be infectious? IMO, more research needs to be done.

 

At this point, we need to note that the degree of infectiousness depends on distance. A small amount of infectiousness is dangerous in intimate relationships, but not at arms length. 

 

Please note that social distancing (without quarantine) has been effective in flattening the curve.

 

In any case, some degree of effective screening is better than none. No single technique will be foolproof. But a combination strategy (screening, masks, distancing, testing, tracing) should be effective.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by HappyInVan

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, caribill said:

 Over 500 TSA agents have tested positive. You might have a better chance of being infected before you get on the plane than when on the plane.

 

You have provided an observation. But, not identified the cause(S). What type of masks were provided? Were they properly trained to wear the masks and DECONTAMINATE themselves.

 

Its said that for medical personnel, the most dangerous aspect of wearing a mask is when the you take it off.

 

As I said earlier, we need a combination strategy to reduce the number of infections, and the risk of transmission.

 

 

[Aus Traveller]

17 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Fact, on a 11 day cruise, the officers on the Ruby managed to get a third of the pax sick. Did not turn around on March 11, or impose social distancing. Allowed the mass infection to disembark on the 19th.

 

BTW, the incubation period is about 5 days. Likely that patient zero (for the March 8th cruise) was either a crew member or a pax already infected before their flight.

 

The courts of inquiry will be very useful. What happened in the medical center? What was communicated between the captain and CD and MO? What exactly was communicated between NSW Health and Princess?

 

In addition, the NZ inquiry will shield light on why NZ closed their ports after the visit to Napier on the 15th.

 

Yes, the truth will be needed.

 

Addition: Yes, the congressional hearing will shed light on the medical advise given to Carnival/Princess. The communication between the cruise industry and the Administration etc.

Princess announced a 'pause' in their cruises on 12th March, one day after WHO declared a pandemic. With the previous pandemic (swine flu) cruise ships did not stop sailing and I cannot recall any suggestion that they should have. Covid has turned out to be more infectious and more deadly.

 

I don't know what you mean about 'patient zero (for the March 8th cruise)'. There was NO patient zero on the March 8th cruise - no COVID-19 - just the flu. It is likely a passenger flew into Sydney to join the Ruby on the 8th (unaware they had COVID-19). The Ruby Princess was in New Zealand when Princess called a pause and announced that ships that could not complete their journey within five days, would return to a port that was convenient for operational reasons. NZ had closed their ports to new ships entering, but ships already in their waters would be allowed to continue.

 

With 20-20 hindsight, it would have been better if the Ruby had not sailed on the 8th, but keep in mind that other cruises that left on that day, or around then, had no cases of COVID-19, even though they also had international passengers fly into join the cruise.

 

Should we blame the passenger who took the virus aboard? Should we blame Princess for not looking carefully enough at their crystal ball to see that that one cruise would have COVID-19 on board? 🙂 Should we blame the medical centre on the ship for not diagnosing COVID when they didn't have test kits for it and swabs sent ashore in NZ tested negative? Should we blame NSW Health department for authorizing disembarkation of the passengers even though they were given swabs from ill passengers to test? (I vote for the last one.)

[gmjc2]

Has everyone ignored the fact that there are e.mails sent from the ship to the Australian health authority stating that they had sick people on board! These have been verified. The fault is with the Australian health agency for giving permission for the ship to disembark the passengers.

The statement from the doctor is certainly disturbing but the evidence of the e.mails cannot be disputed..

[AF-1]

So will the airlines be handing out masks to passengers?  In the United States all the major airlines are requiring passengers to wear masks.  So will you get a mask when you get to the gate?  

[voljeep]

1 hour ago, AF-1 said:

So will the airlines be handing out masks to passengers?  In the United States all the major airlines are requiring passengers to wear masks.  So will you get a mask when you get to the gate?  

got this in an Allegiant email 

 

• All customers are provided with a complimentary health and safety kit upon boarding. The kit includes a single-use face mask, disposable gloves (non-latex) and two sanitizing wipes.
• The air quality on our planes exceeds HEPA standards thanks to our VOC (volatile organic compound) filters, which remove additional organic compounds. On average, cabin air is changed every three minutes through a continuous flow of fresh and VOC-filtered air.
• Our low-touch service approach limits unnecessary personal contact and shared items.
• All inflight service items—all food and all beverages—are pre-packaged and factory-sealed when served.
• Crew members wear gloves during inflight service, and service frequency has been reduced to once per flight. Customers can use the Call button to make additional service requests.
• Inflight magazines and inserts have been removed from all seatbacks.
• As part of the online/mobile check-in process, customers must complete a health acknowledgement certifying that:

[resistk]

1 hour ago, voljeep said:

All customers are provided with a complimentary health and safety kit upon boarding. The kit includes a single-use face mask, disposable gloves (non-latex) and two sanitizing wipes.

 

So much for discretionary travel; sounds risky with all the PPE involved.

[npcl]

6 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

Has everyone ignored the fact that there are e.mails sent from the ship to the Australian health authority stating that they had sick people on board! These have been verified. The fault is with the Australian health agency for giving permission for the ship to disembark the passengers.

The statement from the doctor is certainly disturbing but the evidence of the e.mails cannot be disputed..

They said sick people on board, but not that there was suspicion of COVID.  The number of sick people was a moderate risk and off loading allowed.  If they had said suspicion of COVID that is high risk and no off loading.

 

In the hearing as part of the investigation it is certain that COVID was suspected, because COVID swabs were taken, yet conveniently not entered into the medical records.

[enfuego4cruising]

On 5/1/2020 at 1:58 PM, chipmaster said:

 

This is a rather unflattering view making the rounds now https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cruise-ships-set-sail-knowing-the-deadly-risk-to-passengers-and-crew/ar-BB13tPcs

 

A very interesting and potentially damning article. It does however have the benefit of clear hindsight. The cruise industry was responding and reacting in real time to an issue that was not fully appreciated in the moment. As an example of that lack of appreciation; a quote from no less a world expert than Dr. Fauci (which curiously was not included in the referenced article) who stated on March 9th: “If you are a healthy young person, there is no reason if you want to go on a cruise ship, go on a cruise ship.”  He did however warn away older people or those with underlying conditions in the same response. Talk about a mixed message.

 

[chipmaster]

3 hours ago, resistk said:

 

So much for discretionary travel; sounds risky with all the PPE involved.

 

Risk in the eye of the beholder, getting into your car likely has higher chance of death then on an airplane even in the COVD19 Pandemic, what is discretionary and what is high risk?

[chipmaster]

9 minutes ago, enfuego4cruising said:

A very interesting and potentially damning article. It does however have the benefit of clear hindsight. The cruise industry was responding and reacting in real time to an issue that was not fully appreciated in the moment. As an example of that lack of appreciation; a quote from no less a world expert than Dr. Fauci (which curiously was not included in the referenced article) who stated on March 9th: “If you are a healthy young person, there is no reason if you want to go on a cruise ship, go on a cruise ship.”  He did however warn away older people or those with underlying conditions in the same response. Talk about a mixed message.

 

The doctor is the master of saying something that can mean anything.

 

He was just asked recently about vaccine where he said a year to 18 months, and the "year" became Jan 2021, that is actually 9 months... I highly doubt when he said year to 18 months only days before he meant 9 months to 18 months, he meant 12 to 18 months.  You do know who will pull him if he steps out of line.  He is torn between doing the right thing and saying the right thing, and the right thing isn't what he can really say.

 

The writing was on the wall in February with the Diamond in Japan, yeah you can go on a cruise, the risk is low, but don't be surprised if you get caught and locked down, yeah you won't die, but locked down, yup he was literally correct.  

 

All I got to say, read a lot, research a lot and go in knowing fully all the likely outcomes, but don't blame others as POTUS seems to do.

[caribill]

15 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

He was just asked recently about vaccine where he said a year to 18 months, and the "year" became Jan 2021, that is actually 9 months... I highly doubt when he said year to 18 months only days before he meant 9 months to 18 months, he meant 12 to 18 months. 

 

His "year to 18 months" started in January when the virus was already known to most epidemiologists to have pandemic possibilities.

 

Of course to have an efficient vaccine, the testing must first be done properly. It needs to be a study of patients who do not already have antibodies with some getting the vaccine and the others getting a placebo in a double blind study. Then a proper amount of time must occur in order to determine how each group did in avoiding testing positive and in developing antibodies.

[capriccio]

7 hours ago, AF-1 said:

So will the airlines be handing out masks to passengers?  In the United States all the major airlines are requiring passengers to wear masks.  So will you get a mask when you get to the gate?  

 

JetBlue this week became the first U.S. airline to require that all customers wear a face mask over their nose and mouth during check-in, boarding, in flight, and when deplaning—a rule that goes into effect on May 4. Within a few days, United, American, Delta, and Southwest had all followed suit.

https://www.afar.com/magazine/face-masks-now-required-provided-on-these-us-airlines

 

 

[4cats4me]

1 hour ago, capriccio said:

 

JetBlue this week became the first U.S. airline to require that all customers wear a face mask over their nose and mouth during check-in, boarding, in flight, and when deplaning—a rule that goes into effect on May 4. Within a few days, United, American, Delta, and Southwest had all followed suit.

https://www.afar.com/magazine/face-masks-now-required-provided-on-these-us-airlines

 

 

 

How will people rehydrate during a long flight, or eat? I’ve worn mask on planes before, but I also was not mandated to and was free to remove it to eat.  Wondering if they will be disallowed to remove masks.  On a one hour flight, no big deal.     

Edited May 3, 2020 by 4cats4me

[capriccio]

22 minutes ago, 4cats4me said:

 

How will people rehydrate during a long flight, or eat? I’ve worn mask on planes before, but I also was not mandated to and was free to remove it to eat.  Wondering if they will be disallowed to remove masks.  On a one hour flight, no big deal.     

 

I've have the same excellent questions and concerns!  I haven't seen any further explanation.

Edited May 3, 2020 by capriccio

[PrincessLuver]

On 5/2/2020 at 12:01 PM, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

    Sorry, there's no legitimate defense of the cruise lines in this mess. And the "bias in the media" accusation is a tired red herring.
    The CDC went after the cruise lines because of their gross recklessness and incompetence - their behavior was a disgrace, and massively worsened emergency medical situations in the U.S. as well as Australia during a pandemic. No, the CDC is not biased. No, the Coast Guard is not biased.

    Congress and Australian law enforcement aren't investigating airlines, hotels, movie theaters, sports franchises or convention centers. They're targeting cruise lines and no, they're not biased either.

    Lawyers are lining up with litigation against the cruise lines from passengers and crew alike; no, neither the lawyers nor plaintiffs are biased.

     And one professional news operation after another has reported on the irresponsible decisions of the cruise lines ... and no, the media is not biased.

     The bias to find on CC is that reflexive, predictable defense by some folks of their favorite cruise lines. Year after year in post after post, they insist Fain and Donald and their boards are never wrong - now THAT is bias.

        

 

Agree....and I hope Congress looks into how financially abusive the cruise lines, like Princess, have become by reneging on their cruise contract by canceling cruises and then refusing to refund passengers money that was paid in good faith.  Karma is real Princess....

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, PrincessLuver said:

 

Agree....and I hope Congress looks into how financially abusive the cruise lines, like Princess, have become by reneging on their cruise contract by canceling cruises and then refusing to refund passengers money that was paid in good faith.  Karma is real Princess....

Has Princess refused to refund money that was paid for a cruise they cancelled?

[HUNKY]

49 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Has Princess refused to refund money that was paid for a cruise they cancelled?

They have not outright stated that they are NOT refunding money.

 

However, they have not refunded very many according to posts here on CC.  

[Aus Traveller]

2 minutes ago, HUNKY said:

They have not outright stated that they are NOT refunding money.

 

However, they have not refunded very many according to posts here on CC.  

I queried the previous post that stated "Princess, have become by reneging on their cruise contract by canceling cruises and then refusing to refund passengers money that was paid in good faith." I have not seen that Princess is refusing to refund, but we have seen an extension of the expected time for refunds.

 

If 'PrincessLuver' doesn't get his/refund in a few more months, then he/she can say that Princess hasn't refunded, but until they receive a refusal, they should not make up a story and say that Princess has "refused".🙂

[HappyInVan]

Have you guys read the transcripts from the Special Commission of Inquiry into the Ruby Princess. This ties in nicely into the Congressional and NZ hearings.

 

https://www.rubyprincessinquiry.nsw.gov.au/hearings/

 

 

Only transcripts available are from April 22^nd and 23^rd. On the first day, doctor ILSE VON WATZDORF and Staff Captain SEBASTIANO AZZARELLI testified. On the second day, Hotel Manager CHARLES VERWAAL testified.

 

The proceedings were done via video link. Presumably, the Princess employees were on the ship. Terrible audio quality as both sides kept asking for 'say again'.

 

I am concerned because the sessions were so short. Most of the evidence will likely be from the NSW side of the story.

 

My take is that the good doctor was a poor witness. Couldn't remember details about the two pax send by ambulance to the hospital. Couldn't remember much of the conversation with Vessel Traffic Service, asking for ambulances.

 

Had to be prompted with leading questions. Said that she only had a few hours of sleep per night for a month.

 

Great! Makes you confident in her ability to function.

 

Apparently, there were a flood of patients with respiratory problems. Over a hundred(!) were asked to self-isolate. But, no effort made to ensure compliance.

 

Hotel Manager said that the medical center was operationally under his charge. But, he had nothing to do with ensuring compliance on medical isolation. Yes, the vessel was on Condition Red for enhanced cleaning. But, no he had no knowledge that there was covid on board(?)

 

The Staff Captain said that he was in charge of ship security and that the Hotel manager was in charge of the pax. Staff Captain was present during the doctor's call with VTS, but remember nothing about it. He joined the ship on Feb 18 in Auckland, but doesn't know how many crew members joined the ship there(?) Did not know how many crew members joined in Sydney(?)

 

“MR KIRBY: Does your role as the manager or supervisor in charge of safety and

security also require you to – does it require you to take responsibility for the health

of passengers in the event of an outbreak?

MR AZZARELLI: No, sir.

MR KIRBY: Does it require you to take responsibility for the health of crew in the

case of an outbreak?

MR AZZARELLI: No.”

 

Here we are! The smoking gun. Problem cases identified. Tests for influenza negative. Swabs taken. Hundred pax asked to isolate, but no attempt made to check compliance. No one appears to be in charge. Surprised that NSW Heath didn't screen the passengers.

 

Up to this point, we don't have any testimony about the NSW Health-Princess-Ruby conversation on “Do you have covid?” No testimony from the Captain about who's in charge?

 

Enjoy!

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

Up to this point, we don't have any testimony about the NSW Health-Princess-Ruby conversation on “Do you have covid?” No testimony from the Captain about who's in charge?

The ship didn't have test kits for COVID so the doctor could not answer the question "Do you have COVID". I doubt that the question was asked. Tests done a few days earlier in Auckland returned a negative result. At that point she must have felt COVID was a possibility, otherwise the tests would not have been done. She also must have felt there could be COVID a few days later when she suggested that the paramedics should wear PPE when they came to the ship to pick up two ill passengers from the ship in Sydney. She also sent swabs to be tested for COVID.

 

The key question is why NSW Health cleared the passengers to disembark without waiting for the test results. 

[lucymorgan]

On 5/2/2020 at 4:43 PM, Geoffa30 said:

It’s a shame that similar tracing hasn’t been done for airlines, theme parks, sporting events et al. The virus was everywhere months ago. It’s not just cruise ships that have caused the spread. They are somewhat of an easy target.

Similar tracing was done for airlines in Australia.  In fact every airline trip going into and out of Australia and domestically with confirmed cases have been traced   https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-advice-for-travellers

 

edit: including which seat rows are most likely to have transmitted the virus

Edited May 4, 2020 by lucymorgan