Say goodbye to the older ships.

[JanDom]

We are also going with HAL because of the older and smaller ships.
We always booked the old ones even if we had the chance to book a newer one for the same stops !
Hope they will stay in the fleet :(


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[JanDom]

We all knew it was happening.Say goodbye to the older, smaller ships while we can.  Carnival Corporation already has an agreement to dispose of six ships and is looking at agreements to get rid of more older vessels Carnival Corporation already has an agreement to dispose of six ships and is looking at agreements to get rid of more older vessels 
 
https://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/carnival-corporation-cuts-six-ships-as-return-to-operations-slips/

Just read in German threads : it might be 6 ships of the whole Carnival Corporation : 3 ships of Costa should be sold during next year, also 2 ships of P&O Australia.
If these are 5 of 6 ships, then it is possible that some of the old ships of carnival cruise line will also be sold.
It seems like HAL ships might be „save“ so far...


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[UPNYGuy]

1 hour ago, JanDom said:

 

Just read in German threads : it might be 6 ships of the whole Carnival Corporation : 3 ships of Costa should be sold during next year, also 2 ships of P&O Australia.
If these are 5 of 6 ships, then it is possible that some of the old ships of carnival cruise line will also be sold.
It seems like HAL ships might be „save“ so far...


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To be honest, nobody will really know except the CCL executives until this is been made public. All we can really do is speculate. 

[JanDom]

To be honest, nobody will really know except the CCL executives until this is been made public. All we can really do is speculate. 

Oh really - I think this is what we all do here ... speculate.
Because nobody knows what will happen with the whole industry ... but these are the informations we have / talk about in Europe.


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[KirkNC]

18 hours ago, ontheweb said:

We have had only 2 of our cruises on HAL; the other was much better.

 

We did enjoy the ports, and Montreal afterwards. And of course meeting you two  (The entire roll call was you guys and us.). This was 2 summers ago. We did an escorted land tour in Peru last year instead of a cruise. This year we were booked to do a Norwegian fjords cruise on Princess.

 

I truly hope the 2018 Maasdam cruise will not be our last cruise ever.

Hope you guys are doing well!

[ontheweb]

46 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

Hope you guys are doing well!

Yes, thank you. DW, world's finest elementary art teacher, just finished her school year teaching virtually. She and the other teachers have to go to school later today to virtually wave goodbye to the students. 

 

Reading that you guys were among those stuck in Freemantle made it more real to me. Hope all is well with you guys too.

 

(Our other HAL cruise was an Eastern Mediterranean on the Noordam, a much nicer ship than the Maasdam and a great itinerary.)

[JeffElizabeth]

On 6/18/2020 at 6:42 AM, ski ww said:

Who's in the market to buy old ships with every thing going on right now in the cruising world.

Interest rates are very low right now. I could see a company with good cash reserves buying up these old ships really cheaply to expand a fleet. Or start a new cruise company.  Oceania style? Smaller ships and good food.

[eswn]

Will miss many an old ship.

[Hflors]

Please, I hope its not Volendam.  I have our first Volendam cruise booked on her for February 2022.   My only sorrow is that we aren't going now!!!

[Stateroom_Sailor]

The new debt being taken on, will change the cruise industry on its own.  These cruise lines will need to charge higher prices, just to make the same profit per passenger, they used to.  Even if demand remains the same post-pandemic, higher fares alone will result empty cabins.  I believe that each cruise line now has too many ships, and will be competing with each other to unload.

 

Don't be surprised if a couple new cruise lines emerge, buying up these inventories on the cheap, 

[rkacruiser]

46 minutes ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

Don't be surprised if a couple new cruise lines emerge, buying up these inventories on the cheap, 

 

An interesting comment and forming an entirely new cruise line--unless it was a really budget one--I think unlikely.

 

Richard Branson would love to just get his new Scarlet Lady into service and enter the cruise industry.  Virgin Cruises might be the first cruise line in history to go into bankruptcy before its first newly built ship carries any revenue passengers.  

[rkacruiser]

All of the big 3 cruise companies have expanded their fleets to the point that attrition really was needed.  Guest demand seemed to have warranted expansion.  But.  dare I say:  upmanship as to entertainment facilities has created a difficult situation for CCL, RCI, and NCL to handle.  Lots of wonderfully equipped ships, but with no guests or places to go.  Much of what I am experiencing with my 2020 Buick.  Lots of "bells and whistles" in a nice car, but "no place to safely go."  

[Stateroom_Sailor]

2 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

An interesting comment and forming an entirely new cruise line--unless it was a really budget one--I think unlikely.

 

Richard Branson would love to just get his new Scarlet Lady into service and enter the cruise industry.  Virgin Cruises might be the first cruise line in history to go into bankruptcy before its first newly built ship carries any revenue passengers.  

 

I would say most likely budget, but many of our premium cruise lines today, started with older ships.  Azamara, Oceania, Windstar's yachts from Seaborn...  HAL, Princess, and Celebrity, not so much the case, but it could still happen.

 

Let's just hope that acquisition companies like Diamond Resorts International, don't try and get in on the action.  Ready for your 90 minute, low pressure, timeshare presentation at sea?

 

I always thought that Richard Branson shouldn't have built more than 1 or 2 ships, test the waters before proceeding.  Virgin might indeed be done before the maiden voyage.  it might create opportunity for a company like Marriott, a sister line to the Ritz Carlton Yacht Collection.  It probably just needs to be toned down a bit, add functional furniture, a Sheraton at sea.

[victory2020]

I would think the smaller ships would be of more use if they want to keep crowds/mass gatherings to a minimum.

[cruisemom42]

4 minutes ago, victory2020 said:

I would think the smaller ships would be of more use if they want to keep crowds/mass gatherings to a minimum.

 

How so?

 

With the larger ships, you can sail with a number of cabins empty and still have enough passengers onboard to turn a profit. (Fixed costs split amongst X passengers...). If you have to leave cabins empty in a small ship, you're going to have to charge a lot more.

 

[UPNYGuy]

3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

How so?

 

With the larger ships, you can sail with a number of cabins empty and still have enough passengers onboard to turn a profit. (Fixed costs split amongst X passengers...). If you have to leave cabins empty in a small ship, you're going to have to charge a lot more.

 

exactly. This is one of the reasons why the smaller ships are 100% done for. 

[victory2020]

37 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

How so?

 

With the larger ships, you can sail with a number of cabins empty and still have enough passengers onboard to turn a profit. (Fixed costs split amongst X passengers...). If you have to leave cabins empty in a small ship, you're going to have to charge a lot more.

 

good point

[Copper10-8]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

An interesting comment and forming an entirely new cruise line--unless it was a really budget one--I think unlikely.

 

.........................................

 

Agreed! Remember this budget cruise line with that easy name? Didn't work out too well for them 😉 

[iancal]

I believe that there will always be smaller ships.  There is certainly a market for them.

 

The real question is demand.  How many people will be willing to pay the fare that these ships will command-either by the nature of being smaller ships with higher operating costs or because of the amenities and services that they offer.

 

I suspect that there are people on this forum who want small ships but are unwilling to pay the price.  They expect this environment at the same price point  as the larger ships  of the mass market cruise lines.   Realities of the marketplace can be harsh for those who ignore them.

 

There is a reason why some products cost less at a Costco than they do at a corner store or grocery chain.

Edited June 20, 2020 by iancal

[Lazy Lakes]

Bigger is not always better, was on the Nieuw Statendam and tendering or going on shore with 2600 people one gangway takes time. And we are not even talking about walkers or wheel chairs. Then going back on board  after a tour when 6 bussen come back..... Last year on the VOV they changed ships put the lager Zuiderdam on it they could not fill it. I like the smaller ships but seabourn  viking or windstar are out of my price range.

[Infi]

As others have noted, if HAL ships are chosen as part of the 6, I imagine the S class would be the first to go. The R class serves its purpose for now: destination-based cruising on smaller ships, with the potential to do Grand Voyages as needed. 

 

Which of the S class will go? For better or for worse, HAL seems committed to the experiment of the EXC voyages on Maasdam, and has dumped a lot of money into her recently, i.e. the new Zodiacs and other modifications. HAL seems to recognize there's demand for a Prinsendam-esque replacement to do the exotic voyages. While EXC in depth isn't quite the same as the Prinsendam, I can't seem them in a huge rush to get rid of the Maasdam for that reason. As we all know, the Veendam hasn't been kept in great shape for awhile now and her awkward design represents a series of failed HAL experiments (aft poolette, extra cabins). HAL would probably love to offload her if given the chance. The question is, who has the final say in what ships from a brand leave? Carnival Corp or HAL?

 

Lastly, who's buying or who even needs a ship during this market? It's not likely the luxury cruiselines would want an S class in need of some TLC, not to mention her larger size. Carnival Corp loves to play the shell game of sending their older tonnage off to Australia and Europe, slapping on some new paint and giving them a new lease on life. I doubt P&O Australia is in the market, especially now since they've essentially gotten rid of both the Pacific Aria and Eden (Ryndam and Statendam) after just a few years of service. So, where will all of these ships go? My worst fear in all of this is that this unexpected early retirement may mean that some of our beloved smaller ships go off to the breakers, never to be seen again. 

[kazu]

2 hours ago, Infi said:

HAL seems to recognize there's demand for a Prinsendam-esque replacement to do the exotic voyages. While EXC in depth isn't quite the same as the Prinsendam, 

 

I agree with your entire post but on this in particular.  The EXEC in depth and the Maasdam is NOTHING like the Prinsendam.  An imitation at best and a poor one at that.  It’s itineraries no where near match what the Prinsendam did.  Not saying Maasdam doesn’t have nice itineraries but they are limited.

HAL has sunk money into the Maasdam with zodiacs etc so I agree they may hang onto her.  On the other hand, everything is for sale if the price is right.  After all, Prinsendam had the highest profit per person of all of the ships and they sold her.

[RedmondCruiser]

Sell older ships ?  Who's going to buy them ?  The cruise business will be slow recovering and will have excess capacity for years.  The secondary market, where older ships now go,  is dead in the water - literally.  Currently  some of my old HAL favorites the Noordam III and the Westerdam II are languishing off Malta.  The Noordam III has been listed as "adrift" for several days.  Probably all destined for the breakers as was the fate of the Nieuw Amsterdam III back in 2019.

I'm glad that the Rotterdam V was turned into a hotel and not scrapped.  The Noordam III was our favorite ship and we knew that some day she would go to Alang.  Carnival Corp has some very tough decisions to make in the near future.

[rkacruiser]

23 hours ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

it might create opportunity for a company like Marriott, a sister line to the Ritz Carlton Yacht Collection.

 

As a Marriott International shareholder, your idea is a unique one.  (I wonder if my Marriott Rewards status/points would be able to be applied to such a cruise.)

 

However, other than the name "Ritz Carlton", I am unaware of any connection that exists between the "Yacht Collection" and Marriott International.  

[KirkNC]

2 hours ago, kazu said:

 

I agree with your entire post but on this in particular.  The EXEC in depth and the Maasdam is NOTHING like the Prinsendam.  An imitation at best and a poor one at that.  It’s itineraries no where near match what the Prinsendam did.  Not saying Maasdam doesn’t have nice itineraries but they are limited.

HAL has sunk money into the Maasdam with zodiacs etc so I agree they may hang onto her.  On the other hand, everything is for sale if the price is right.  After all, Prinsendam had the highest profit per person of all of the ships and they sold her.

Funny thing about the zodiacs, we sailed from Japan to Australia, around both Australia and New Zealand on  the Maasdam.  Eighty days total, the zodiacs had excursions maybe 8 days.  The most common excursion was a two hour trip where you were given a plastic cone with plastic in one end.  What you did was lean over, put the plastic end in the water and look through the cone, your own mini glass bottom boat.  Many ports would have been great for zodiacs.  When asked there were two answers, not licensed to operate here or no trained zodiac captains.  The zodiacs remind me of the old Wendy’s commercial, where’s the beef?

Edited June 20, 2020 by KirkNC