CDC Seeks Public Comment On Cruise Operations

[Cruising89143]

I did not see this posted. Reading the comments should be interesting.

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/breakthrough-opening-cdc-seeks-public-comment-cruise-operations-covid-19-era

[pumpkin 11]

This idea that a business is somehow liable if you get COVID 19 or worse get sick or even die is absolute insanity. This will not end well for any party looking for a fight with cruise lines once things get going again.

 

The only reason ships are under intense scrutiny is because it is very easy to ascertain where you contracted the virus vs. being on land where people can usually freely come and go as they please. 

 

Very frightening that people can submit "comments" until the 21st of September. Very long time indeed. And since when did the CDC care about peoples opinions? This madness needs to end.

 

If you want to go on a cruise and are happy to take the risk than you should be able to. If you want to stay home, than just do that. Nobody is forcing anyone on a cruise.

Edited July 24, 2020 by pumpkin 11

[Host Kat]

See the thread on the Ask a Cruise Question forum:

 

 

 

[markeb]

I guess Ii sometimes assume (incorrectly) that people on this board have some understanding of how regulations are written in the United States. Or maybe they just enjoy ready, fire, aim...

 

The Director of the CDC has the authority to write regulations implementing public law within their general public health authorities (as does the FAA with aviation, the DEA with drug enforcement, etc.). It's done under the Administrative Procedures Act as the resulting regulation takes on the force of law, even though issued by the Executive Branch. That requires public comment (60 days is the norm) and adjudication before the regulation can be implemented.

 

So the CDC is required by LAW to solicit and receive public comment on a a proposed permanent regulation into the Code of Federal Regulations. If you've paid any attention to the various administrative actions overturned by the courts recently, they've pretty much all been for failing to follow process and are considered arbitrary and capricious (legal terms).

 

This is normal.

[pumpkin 11]

1 minute ago, markeb said:

I guess Ii sometimes assume (incorrectly) that people on this board have some understanding of how regulations are written in the United States. Or maybe they just enjoy ready, fire, aim...

 

The Director of the CDC has the authority to write regulations implementing public law within their general public health authorities (as does the FAA with aviation, the DEA with drug enforcement, etc.). It's done under the Administrative Procedures Act as the resulting regulation takes on the force of law, even though issued by the Executive Branch. That requires public comment (60 days is the norm) and adjudication before the regulation can be implemented.

 

So the CDC is required by LAW to solicit and receive public comment on a a proposed permanent regulation into the Code of Federal Regulations. If you've paid any attention to the various administrative actions overturned by the courts recently, they've pretty much all been for failing to follow process and are considered arbitrary and capricious (legal terms).

 

This is normal.

Geez, someone is on their high horse. Why on earth would that be common knowledge.

[Fouremco]

46 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

And since when did the CDC care about peoples opinions? This madness needs to end.

 

6 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Geez, someone is on their high horse. Why on earth would that be common knowledge.

If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question. 

[cluso]

12 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Geez, someone is on their high horse. Why on earth would that be common knowledge.

 

Not on a high horse, just an educated person presenting some facts.  I wish more people were like markeb.

 

[pumpkin 11]

22 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

 

If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question. 

My fiery language aside, my "question" was rhetorical not very literal.

[hcat]

38 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Geez, someone is on their high horse. Why on earth would that be common knowledge.

Civics class 101!

Very nice  explanation of  how rule making works for US administrative agencies...

Edited July 24, 2020 by hcat

[pumpkin 11]

8 minutes ago, hcat said:

Civics class 101!

Very nice  explanation of  how rule making works for US administrative agencies...

Why would that be common knowledge for the public?? Obviously he or she knew but I doubt you did.

 

Anyway, who cares that was not the thrust of my post. It is rather insignificant to me that the CDC wants input from a very scared general public who has been listening to exaggerated news stories for 5 months on end.

Edited July 24, 2020 by pumpkin 11

[npcl]

45 minutes ago, markeb said:

I guess Ii sometimes assume (incorrectly) that people on this board have some understanding of how regulations are written in the United States. Or maybe they just enjoy ready, fire, aim...

 

The Director of the CDC has the authority to write regulations implementing public law within their general public health authorities (as does the FAA with aviation, the DEA with drug enforcement, etc.). It's done under the Administrative Procedures Act as the resulting regulation takes on the force of law, even though issued by the Executive Branch. That requires public comment (60 days is the norm) and adjudication before the regulation can be implemented.

 

So the CDC is required by LAW to solicit and receive public comment on a a proposed permanent regulation into the Code of Federal Regulations. If you've paid any attention to the various administrative actions overturned by the courts recently, they've pretty much all been for failing to follow process and are considered arbitrary and capricious (legal terms).

 

This is normal.

Yes, you will also note that in the no sail orders the CDC states clearly that the no sail orders were not done as an administrative action.

 

If this follows normal practice at some point after the RFI there will be a draft regulation generated which will be published in the federal register with its own comment period before the final regulation appears..

 

The regulation process is not one designed for speed.  A number of steps, each of which must be followed.

[pumpkin 11]

3 minutes ago, npcl said:

Yes, you will also note that in the no sail orders the CDC states clearly that the no sail orders were not done as an administrative action.

 

If this follows normal practice at some point after the RFI there will be a draft regulation generated which will be published in the federal register with its own comment period before the final regulation appears..

 

The regulation process is not one designed for speed.  A number of steps, each of which must be followed.

Well they shouldn't be followed. I've had enough of this crap. we have to wear the masks, so open everything up if they work so well! Ridiculousness

Edited July 24, 2020 by pumpkin 11

[npcl]

5 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Well they shouldn't be followed. I've had enough of this crap. we have to wear the masks, so open everything up if they work so well! Ridiculousness

The have to be followed because as the no sail orders say they were done under enforcement granted to the CDC under US law (they listed the exact codes that gave them those enforcement powers) and did not need to follow the administration process.

[hcat]

3 hours ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Why would that be common knowledge for the public?? Obviously he or she knew but I doubt you did.

 

Anyway, who cares that was not the thrust of my post. It is rather insignificant to me that the CDC wants input from a very scared general public who has been listening to exaggerated news stories for 5 months on end.

I knew from  my schooling  ( and  recent Supreme Court decisions) and gen info about how things work.. But the poster was kind enough to explain for those who did not know!

 

Public Comment  responses can sometimes turn the tide on issues...

 

[WNcruiser]

Here is the direct link for those of you who would like to comment (or read the comments)

 

https://beta.regulations.gov/search?filter="CDC–2020–0087"

 

 

[Bo1953]

5 hours ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Geez, someone is on their high horse. Why on earth would that be common knowledge.

It is common knowledge for those of us who follow Fed, State, and Local U.S. proposed laws that will require public comment. That is rather we comment or not.

 

It has been a requirement for decades here in the U.S., especially when Agencies issue rules and regulations.

 

Do all Americans know this? Good question, yet enough of us know it to comment without provocation to do so and rather the rules/policies are changed or amended or withdrawn.

 

This is how We can further participate in Government, beyond  voting.

 

bon voyage

[hcat]

2 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

It is common knowledge for those of us who follow Fed, State, and Local U.S. proposed laws that will require public comment. That is rather we comment or not.

 

It has been a requirement for decades here in the U.S., especially when Agencies issue rules and regulations.

 

Do all Americans know this? Good question, yet enough of us know it to comment without provocation to do so and rather the rules/policies are changed or amended or withdrawn.

 

This is how We can further participate in Government, beyond  voting.

 

bon voyage

Bo

You are always a gentleman and statesman on CC..

Your comments are appreciated!

[NMTraveller]

3 hours ago, WNcruiser said:

Here is the direct link for those of you who would like to comment (or read the comments)

 

https://beta.regulations.gov/search?filter="CDC–2020–0087"

 

 

Based upon the topics/questions and how they were worded, my best guess is that the CDC will not allow cruising until there is a vaccine.  Too many restrictions for cruising to be profitable for the cruise lines unless fares are raised significantly.  Restrictions on shore excursions?  I am not sure who would want to cruise under these proposed restrictions.

 

Or if they did allow cruising it would be on very small ships.

Edited July 25, 2020 by NMTraveller

[TeeRick]

I think that the public comment period as stated is required.  That being said, this is only one source of many (including expert panels) that the CDC will use for issuing cruising guidance.  It will be read and noted and filtered for some pearls of wisdom.  Or for a general sense of how that subset of the public taking the time in answering 59 questions feels and thinks.  I don't see this as a huge number of responses.  If only 4 or 5 questions perhaps more responses. Most people will not know about it at all and even fewer will respond.  They can start evaluating right away- no need to wait until the very last day to read everything.

[phoenix_dream]

22 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I think that the public comment period as stated is required.  That being said, this is only one source of many (including expert panels) that the CDC will use for issuing cruising guidance.  It will be read and noted and filtered for some pearls of wisdom.  Or for a general sense of how that subset of the public taking the time in answering 59 questions feels and thinks.  I don't see this as a huge number of responses.  If only 4 or 5 questions perhaps more responses. Most people will not know about it at all and even fewer will respond.  They can start evaluating right away- no need to wait until the very last day to read everything.

I clicked the link but cannot seem to find the 59 questions.  What am I missing?

[wrk2cruise]

Go here and download the file.

Edited July 25, 2020 by wrk2cruise

[grandgeezer]

On 7/24/2020 at 9:41 AM, pumpkin 11 said:

This idea that a business is somehow liable if you get COVID 19 or worse get sick or even die is absolute insanity. This will not end well for any party looking for a fight with cruise lines once things get going again.

 

The only reason ships are under intense scrutiny is because it is very easy to ascertain where you contracted the virus vs. being on land where people can usually freely come and go as they please. 

 

Very frightening that people can submit "comments" until the 21st of September. Very long time indeed. And since when did the CDC care about peoples opinions? This madness needs to end.

 

If you want to go on a cruise and are happy to take the risk than you should be able to. If you want to stay home, than just do that. Nobody is forcing anyone on a cruise.

 

The CDC is a government agency, fact. If they tell the cruise lines, that in order to sail they have to make certain changes such as social distancing and wearing a face mask in certain situations, and the cruise lines agree to all the points, in writing, then they sail. 

If for whatever reason, if any of the agreed upon items aren't followed, the CDC can warn them, fine them, and as a last resort shut them down, which would be the demise of the cruise line. It's called breach of contract.

This isn't a party after them, it's the US government, and to steal your phrase, it won't end well for the line who breached a written contract. When they lose that, it opens the door to everyone that was harmed.

As far as people being able to cruise if they want to, that's BS. I don't care if they want to risk their own life, or even the lives of their family and friends, it's the lives of the innocent people that could catch it from some carrier. If there is ever a cure, or even a reliable vaccine, that changes things.

[phoenix_dream]

50 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

Go here and download the file.

Thanks - my mistake was I was thinking it was a questionnaire you could just complete online, responding to each question.  

[ExArkie]

It's also important to note that under the protocols for public comment on proposed regulations, the agency proposing the regulation is required to address the comments received, but not necessarily to accept or incorporate them.

 

Having been on both sides of that process (representing the agency proposing regulations and commenting on other's proposals), I've found that the offered comments are mostly reasoned arguments - with a few "out there" contributors - that will generally cause the agency to think about what they are proposing, whether or not they ultimately change what is proposed.

[wrk2cruise]

I started to read the comments but it's very difficult as there is a separate link for each and it goes back to the top after each one.