If you have to wear a mask while cruising .... would you?

[BlueRiband]

5 hours ago, mnocket said:

I agree.  Those of us in the high risk category should wear a mask to protect ourselves - and this means a high quality (e.g. N95) mask.  I think the government is really missing the boat in not having a program to provide N95 masks to the most vulnerable. 

N95 masks are not easy to breath through.  Where I used to work one could not use them on the job without first getting a physical exam to determine fitness to use one and then having a fit check. 

[ATC cruiser]

7 hours ago, mnocket said:

I agree.  Those of us in the high risk category should wear a mask to protect ourselves - and this means a high quality (e.g. N95) mask.  I think the government is really missing the boat in not having a program to provide N95 masks to the most vulnerable. 

that's not the only boat the government missed.

[evandbob]

19 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I have serious doubts.  Mask threads will be replacing dress code and chair hogs as one of the most contentious subjects on CC.  😄

 

Perhaps a thread on wearing masks that have a logo of a competing cruise line?????☺️😉

[mnocket]

6 hours ago, BlueRiband said:

N95 masks are not easy to breath through.  Where I used to work one could not use them on the job without first getting a physical exam to determine fitness to use one and then having a fit check. 

 

Look, you either take our current approach which is to place the most vulnerable at the mercy of others being responsible and wearing masks

or

You provide the vulnerable with the means to protect themselves (i.e. effective masks)

 

I think the later makes more sense and offers far better protection to the vulnerable.

 

True, fit is important for N95 masks.  Seems to me there is a simple solution.  Why can't pharmacists be trained to assist the vulnerable with fit and advice?  After all, many of us will go to our pharmacists to get vaccinated once a vaccine is available.  Seems logical for them  to perform this function as well.

 

As for breathing restriction with N95 masks - there are N95 masks available with valves that make breathing much less restrictive.  They are just as effective in protecting the wearer, but they do permit more droplets to be released when exhaling/talking.  As shown in the study I posted earlier, N95 masks with valves still offer about the same protection to others as the cloth masks most people are wearing.

[klkaylor78]

I would for the start/end but daily on board makes no sense. However the biggest issue would be the problem of civility with the rule breakers and the rule enforcers that will be present in any crowd.  I just would find the nit picking too much to endure. As sanger727 put it there will always be folks trying to skirt the rule and those being indignant about those not following the rules making the whole scene a no fun zone.

[sprint180]

Yes, if it gets me on a ship.

[2wheelin]

4 hours ago, mnocket said:

 

Look, you either take our current approach which is to place the most vulnerable at the mercy of others being responsible and wearing masks

or

You provide the vulnerable with the means to protect themselves (i.e. effective masks)

 

I think the later makes more sense and offers far better protection to the vulnerable.

 

True, fit is important for N95 masks.  Seems to me there is a simple solution.  Why can't pharmacists be trained to assist the vulnerable with fit and advice?  After all, many of us will go to our pharmacists to get vaccinated once a vaccine is available.  Seems logical for them  to perform this function as well.

 

As for breathing restriction with N95 masks - there are N95 masks available with valves that make breathing much less restrictive.  They are just as effective in protecting the wearer, but they do permit more droplets to be released when exhaling/talking.  As shown in the study I posted earlier, N95 masks with valves still offer about the same protection to others as the cloth masks most people are wearing.

While not available at first, the vulnerable are able to purchase N95 masks if they wish. But to suggest they use a valved one is irresponsible as then you have half the people protecting others and the other half protecting themselves. Might as well forget masks. A properly constructed, properly fitting, properly worn cloth mask will protect yourself better than a valved N95 and about as well as a non filtered N95 while also protecting others.

This is why places that require masks do not accept valved N95 worn alone.

[mnocket]

1 hour ago, 2wheelin said:

While not available at first, the vulnerable are able to purchase N95 masks if they wish. But to suggest they use a valved one is irresponsible as then you have half the people protecting others and the other half protecting themselves. Might as well forget masks. A properly constructed, properly fitting, properly worn cloth mask will protect yourself better than a valved N95 and about as well as a non filtered N95 while also protecting others.

This is why places that require masks do not accept valved N95 worn alone.

I'm guessing you didn't read the study I posted earlier  that showed a valved N95 mask offered similar protection to others as a common cloth mask?  I don't know how you can call protecting the most vulnerable while maintaining equivalent protection to others "irresponsible", but to each their own.

 

If you want to call out irresponsible mask wearers I'd suggest you target those wearing the  fleece neck gaiters.  They actually make the person wearing them MORE dangerous to others than wearing no mask at all - and yet you see many people wearing them.

 

Here are the links to the article and the referenced study.  Interesting reading.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/duke-university-face-mask-test-trnd/index.html

 

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083

 

[chipmaster]

13 hours ago, BlueRiband said:

N95 masks are not easy to breath through.  Where I used to work one could not use them on the job without first getting a physical exam to determine fitness to use one and then having a fit check. 

 

The reason they work is because they have good filtration, there is no such thing as a comfortable and effective mask or PPE.

 

It is like people thinking being fit and eating healthy are somehow easy, or that success doesn't come with lots of hard work.

 

Back to N95, I see lots of people some really don't look fit, maybe they are wearing them improperly and this can breath easily, LOL

 

BTW I'd rather be around unfit people wearing poorly fitted N95 or even valved N95 than those cheap throw away surgical and or colorful cloth or gators that you see now people prefer ( much more comfortable, cool and breath easy, the reason liked ) 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by chipmaster

[pris993]

no

 

[ldubs]

12 hours ago, evandbob said:

 

Perhaps a thread on wearing masks that have a logo of a competing cruise line?????☺️😉

 

😄😄😄

[2wheelin]

2 hours ago, mnocket said:

I'm guessing you didn't read the study I posted earlier  that showed a valved N95 mask offered similar protection to others as a common cloth mask?  I don't know how you can call protecting the most vulnerable while maintaining equivalent protection to others "irresponsible", but to each their own.

 

If you want to call out irresponsible mask wearers I'd suggest you target those wearing the  fleece neck gaiters.  They actually make the person wearing them MORE dangerous to others than wearing no mask at all - and yet you see many people wearing them.

 

Here are the links to the article and the referenced study.  Interesting reading.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/duke-university-face-mask-test-trnd/index.html

 

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083

 

The most effective mask was the fitted N95. Three-layer surgical masks and cotton masks, which many people have been making at home, also performed well.

Neck fleeces, also called gaiter masks and often used by runners, were the least effective. In fact, wearing a fleece mask resulted in a higher number of respiratory droplets because the material seemed to break down larger droplets into smaller particles that are more easily carried away with air.

Folded bandanas and knitted masks also performed poorly and did not offer much protection.

very simple masks, like these homemade cotton masks, do really well to stop the majority of these respiratory droplets,"  

These studies and others show that well constructed cloth masks perform as well as N95 (non valved) for both wearer and others. Why would one choose to wear a valved N95 which provides protection mostly to the wearer with limited protection to others and it is more expensive as well as less comfortable. As stated before, they are not considered acceptable where masks are mandated. 

Yes, I would also repeat that fleece, stretchy materials, single layers, ill fitting masks and those worn incorrectly are pretty useless. Unfortunately many of the mask makers were more interested in tallying how many they could make rather than taking a couple more minutes and making them effective.

[mnocket]

59 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

These studies and others show that well constructed cloth masks perform as well as N95 (non valved) for both wearer and others.

If you've read the studies and came away with the understanding that cloth masks perform as well as N95 masks for protecting the wearer, so be it. I came away with a very different understanding.

 

If you came away with an understanding that valved and unvalved N95 masks differ in their protection of the wearer, again so be it.  I came away with a very different understanding.

 

I guess all that really matters is that we both feel protected from those who don't wear masks, wear them below their noses or wear ineffective fleece masks.  The key is to protect yourself and not be dependent on others to protect you.

[2wheelin]

7 hours ago, mnocket said:

If you've read the studies and came away with the understanding that cloth masks perform as well as N95 masks for protecting the wearer, so be it. I came away with a very different understanding.

 

If you came away with an understanding that valved and unvalved N95 masks differ in their protection of the wearer, again so be it.  I came away with a very different understanding.

 

I guess all that really matters is that we both feel protected from those who don't wear masks, wear them below their noses or wear ineffective fleece masks.  The key is to protect yourself and not be dependent on others to protect you.

Well, my reply was mostly a quote from your links so believe it or not.

[mnocket]

3 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

Well, my reply was mostly a quote from your links so believe it or not.

Oh, that explains it then.  The study I linked to dealt exclusively with "facemask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech".  In other words, it studied the efficacy of various face masks in protecting others from the wearer.  It did not address protecting the wearer.  It was the basis of my claim that valved N95 masks offer about the same protection to others as the common cotton masks many people wear.

[2wheelin]

6 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Oh, that explains it then.  The study I linked to dealt exclusively with "facemask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech".  In other words, it studied the efficacy of various face masks in protecting others from the wearer.  It did not address protecting the wearer.  It was the basis of my claim that valved N95 masks offer about the same protection to others as the common cotton masks many people wear.

Were they testing valved masks? I missed that if so and I specifically looked for it.

[mnocket]

1 minute ago, 2wheelin said:

Were they testing valved masks? I missed that if so and I specifically looked for it.

See Fig 3

[chipmaster]

9 hours ago, mnocket said:

Oh, that explains it then.  The study I linked to dealt exclusively with "facemask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech".  In other words, it studied the efficacy of various face masks in protecting others from the wearer.  It did not address protecting the wearer.  It was the basis of my claim that valved N95 masks offer about the same protection to others as the common cotton masks many people wear.

 

You get an A+, amazing what people think they read and what was written, LOL

 

Thus as you noted Delta/Disney based on "science" banning anyone wearing a valved N95 versus the gators or simple cloth as for safety of others they are based on this ONE study about the same, they should BAN all of them, but who uses science to make decisions, all about marketing your agenda, LOL

[chipmaster]

9 hours ago, mnocket said:

See Fig 3

 

Everything to the right of the Valved N95 is WORSE for filtering for OTHERs.

 

Don't read this as less effective for protecting  YOU.   For inhalation if the valve is solid and fit good it would be right up there with N95 for the wearer!

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by chipmaster

[cruise kitty]

A few months ago my answer was a resounding "no"  as I thought back then that if masks were required, then it wouldn't be safe,   however, now I will give a qualified, yes, under certain circumstances:

 

1.  A safe & effective vaccination is available & DH & I have both received it...  because i think that masks are going to be required for a few years after a vaccine...  there's always those with medical conditions or infants who cannot be vaccinated, so we''ll need masks until number go way down, & most of the population is safe.  

 

I'm keeping fingers crossed for next May's cruise, & we shall see.   

[TNcruising02]

I really don't want to cruise if wearing a mask is required.  I would rather wait it out.  I guess I would make an exception if a year goes by and the only way I could cruise is by wearing a mask.  Then I would definitely have to book an extended balcony.  I love being out on the ocean, but a mask in the heat really takes away from outside enjoyment.  I am hoping that by the time cruises resume, things will be much better.

As far as protecting the most vulnerable, the most vulnerable should be socially distancing and staying home.  My high risk relatives don't go grocery shopping or to places where they can catch the virus.  That's how they are protecting themselves, not just going out and about hoping for the best.  In my area, there are options like grocery delivery or a person can order groceries and just pull up to a parking space and have their groceries brought to them.  There is no reason a high risk person needs to take the risk of shopping, in my opinion.  I wish that point was driven home because it would save a lot of lives if the most vulnerable would protect themselves by staying safely away from other people.

Edited August 14, 2020 by TNcruising02

[mnocket]

3 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

As far as protecting the most vulnerable, the most vulnerable should be socially distancing and staying home.

 

I agree with you. However, you must recognize that since the "at risk" group includes those 60 years of age or older (some say 65).  This comprises a large percentage of those who cruise (including me) and many of the posters on Cruise Critic.  Staying at home can be a tough pill to swallow.

[2wheelin]

10 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

As far as protecting the most vulnerable, the most vulnerable should be socially distancing and staying home.  My high risk relatives don't go grocery shopping or to places where they can catch the virus.  That's how they are protecting themselves, not just going out and about hoping for the best.  In my area, there are options like grocery delivery or a person can order groceries and just pull up to a parking space and have their groceries brought to them.  There is no reason a high risk person needs to take the risk of shopping, in my opinion.  I wish that point was driven home because it would save a lot of lives if the most vulnerable would protect themselves by staying safely away from other people.

We are just beginning to acknowledge the devastating mental health effects on those forced to isolate. And this is primarily the elderly who will never recover from that. A few need severe protection but to say everyone over a certain age should stay home is a cop out at best. If everyone would consider others as important as themselves this wouldn’t be an issue. But we have raised a whole generation of young people telling them “you are number one”, “you are the most important” making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the race so no one feels bad.

If we think about it, a huge percentage of working physicians, business leaders, “essential workers” (I hate that term) are of an age they are considered vulnerable.

And we don’t seem to be the ones resisting masks.

[TNcruising02]

I think everyone should accept that going out is a risk.  High risk people should decide whether or not to take the risk and not depend on the behavior of others to protect them because that is unrealistic.  There is no way I would ever depend on the behavior of other people to protect me against a disease that could kill me if I was a very high risk person.  The masks will not protect a high risk person unless it's the right kind, so every time they aren't 6 feet away from another person they are accepting the risk.

I completely agree that isolation can be deadly.  Look at all of the suicides.  That, and also isolation can be deadly to addicts.  My high risk relatives have isolated themselves and have only been out of the house in rare cases because they know that they can't be guaranteed protection even if everyone is wearing a mask.  That's why everyone should decide for themselves if they want to take the risk.  People who aren't high risk have a right to go on with their lives with their jobs, etc. and should wear masks when mandated.  People who are high risk should assess their risk and proceed accordingly.

Edited August 14, 2020 by TNcruising02

[TNcruising02]

5 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

We are just beginning to acknowledge the devastating mental health effects on those forced to isolate. And this is primarily the elderly who will never recover from that. A few need severe protection but to say everyone over a certain age should stay home is a cop out at best. If everyone would consider others as important as themselves this wouldn’t be an issue. But we have raised a whole generation of young people telling them “you are number one”, “you are the most important” making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the race so no one feels bad.

If we think about it, a huge percentage of working physicians, business leaders, “essential workers” (I hate that term) are of an age they are considered vulnerable.

And we don’t seem to be the ones resisting masks.

I agree with you.  It's just a fact of life that there will always be entitled, self-absorbed people who will only care about themselves.  So, the best form of action is to add that into a person's risk factor.  There will always be people who will not behave responsibly.  It's easier to just expect it than to hope they will change.

Edited August 14, 2020 by TNcruising02