Finally a CEO stands up to the coronabro cdc!

[cabincop]

In CT they said over 60% of deaths were in nursing homes. These stats were from August. Most deaths were over 70years

[brad0576]

On 9/11/2020 at 6:43 AM, RD64 said:

A cruise is a “want”, not a “NEED”.

Is your job a want, or a need?

[CruizinKittie40]

On 9/11/2020 at 5:43 AM, RD64 said:

A cruise is a “want”, not a “NEED”.

It is a need when you are employed by a cruise line. 

[RD64]

1 hour ago, brad0576 said:

Is your job a want, or a need?

Are you more concerned with your desire to go on a cruise or your compassion for those unemployed in the cruise industry. Hopefully you show the same compassion for the thousands of people unemployed in whatever state you live in. You could always stay at home, and take a staycation in your home state. Go stay at a local hotel - support the front desk clerks, room attendants etc. You can support your local tourism industry without ever getting on a ship.

[brad0576]

1 hour ago, RD64 said:

Are you more concerned with your desire to go on a cruise or your compassion for those unemployed in the cruise industry. Hopefully you show the same compassion for the thousands of people unemployed in whatever state you live in. You could always stay at home, and take a staycation in your home state. Go stay at a local hotel - support the front desk clerks, room attendants etc. You can support your local tourism industry without ever getting on a ship.

I work in Orlando in the hotel industry - I understand the issues firsthand......

[CruiseMH]

There are a lot more industries that did loose a lot more jobs then the cruise industry could loose. 85-95% of the jobs are done by asians on the ships. The no. of jobs on land are only very little compared to some other industries. And these industries are paying regular income taxes. So thats the reason why the cruise industry is very far down on the priority list of the industries the government will take care about.

 

If the case numbers are low enough and the cruise lines do have a convincing concept, the CDC will allow cruises again. The concepts are there, so the question is how low the case numbers have to be until CDC allows cruising again.

 

[4774Papa]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:23 AM, GA Dave said:

If the CDC was truly all about protecting the public, then they would not have allowed tens of thousands of people to sit in a stadium in KC last night to watch a game.

Disagree, the risk of picking up COVID-19 is lower if outdoors.  Also, there is plenty of space with limited fans for social distancing.

 

[chipmaster]

7 hours ago, Formula280SS said:

 

These aren't norovirus cases from ships; clearly appear to be coronavirus in the US by state (also not on ships).

 

It also is cumulative, with no regard to March to September; March being when the world 'didn't know what hit it or how to treat it to September when the world 'learning curve has improved treatment.

 

It clearly also appears countries and, in the US, state governments "can't even handle" such. 

 

Note the states with the highest 'deaths per million of population.

 

What would be interesting?

 

How many in each of the above:

 

1.  Nursing homes.

2.  Health care workers.

3.  Those with underlying conditions of heart disease, lung disease, diabetes and obesity.

4.  Age 65 and over.

 

AFTER SUCH LARGE % OF THE #'S, THERE IS A GIGANTIC MATHEMATICAL GAP

 

5.  Everyone else (stratified for asymptomatic), never hospitalized.

6.  Disclosure of the virus potency levels.

 

Yes, it is common sense.  Protect 1-4, protocol 5 at applicable risk level.

 

  

 

Yup what is it more than 40% of deaths are falling into nursing homes, senior citizens, obese, diabetic, sounds exactly like a large % of the cruise population, wow I guess if we use Diamond Princess that sure seem like the wild west all ready for a huge outbreak.

 

A cruise isn't a collection like schools or colleges of the lower risk folks, its a collection of the highest risk ones, LOL

[Formula280SS]

1 hour ago, chipmaster said:

 

Yup what is it more than 40% of deaths are falling into nursing homes, senior citizens, obese, diabetic, sounds exactly like a large % of the cruise population, wow I guess if we use Diamond Princess that sure seem like the wild west all ready for a huge outbreak.

 

A cruise isn't a collection like schools or colleges of the lower risk folks, its a collection of the highest risk ones, LOL

 

Well, I suggest you follow your own lead and not cruise until there is a 100% vaccine (LOL) or 100% therapeudic (LOL).  You may never cruise again.  That way, you don't have to worry.

 

For those who do not ascribe to such, leave them to their own; with the protocols in place across the broad spectrum of society.

 

LOL at the continued 50% who don't want to cruise and don't want the other 50% who choose to cruise to do so under the protocols.

 

Yet, on the other hand, the 50% who want to cruise are not demanding equal involuntary imposition on those who don't want to cruise and "making them cruise."

 

Just don't go.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Formula280SS

[macandlucy]

Yes, I'm puzzled by the nay sayers. Just don't go, no one's forcing you.  Maybe it's a FOMO thing? 

[foodsvcmgr]

Agreed, CDC needs to establish a protocol that must be followed by passengers and cruise lines.

The time for prohibition has past.

Anyone who wants to sail follows the protocols.

Those who are uncomfortable remain at home 

but do NOT restrict those that ARE comfortable.

[npcl]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:03 AM, Tapi said:

The key is to maintain a very strict environment on cruise ships, with no room for this kind of disregard for the rules. Airlines have continued operating during this entire pandemic without a single case of mass infection. But they have also been extremely strict about the rules. You're simply not allowed to remove that mask unless you're taking a sip of your drink or a bite of your snack. Violators are treated harshly. Many will go on a "no fly" list and be banned for life from flying on that specific airline. It seems like MSC has taken a similar approach in the Mediterranean with a zero tolerance policy for anybody who violates the rules.

 

If we can do something similar here in the USA, and if people go cruising fully understanding that they will have to abide by these rules without exception, then this may actually work. 

unfortunately the cruise lines have not even been able to keep Covid off of their idle ships with minimal crew. Illness was reported on 7 of the few ships still in US waters in August.

 

Unfortunately the cruise lines still seem to be avoiding what is necessary to restart. That includes a proper testing regimen  for the crew.

 

Still too much of if we can hide it the public will not know. Let's move most of the ships out of US waters so we do not have to report illness to the cdc.

[atanac]

Protocols for a cruise ship is a pipe dream. You can't even expect social distancing in a grocery

store much less inside a ship. We all know how narrow the corridors are for the cabins. Then

think about the stair well, ship stores, elevators, embarking and disembarking etc.

If the CDC decides social distancing and masks are still required I can't see them lifting their

No Sail order this year. 

[OzCanuck]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:23 AM, GA Dave said:

If the CDC was truly all about protecting the public, then they would not have allowed tens of thousands of people to sit in a stadium in KC last night to watch a game.

Out of their jurisdiction, so as per usual one of your specious arguments.  
 

Sounded good  to say though I bet. 

[ThirstyCruiser]

On 9/12/2020 at 11:25 AM, macandlucy said:

Are you suggesting that there is something more dangerous about the indoor space on a cruise ship compared to the indoor space of any other space where strangers encounter one another?

 

Maybe if they were speaking in the MDR while dinner was being served surrounded by as many people as we can expect to see in the MDR when cruising resumes.

Then cut away to the speech continuing as they step out of an elevator into the lobby with as many people present as we can expect to see when cruising resumes.

Then to the promenade on embarkation day.

Then to deck 2 at 7 AM after having just docked.

Then sitting in the theater right before the curtain rises.

Then outside the theater 5 minutes after the curtain drops.

Then in a stairwell between decks 9 and 10 as Abner is huffing and puffing, chin strap barely on, while Edna encourages "Only 2 more flights to go!"

 

If one believes there is a risk of infection to a contagious disease spread via aerosols, is the indoor space on a cruise ship more dangerous compared to the indoor space of any other space where strangers encounter one another? In some cases, yes.

[Shipof6Fools]

The media did a great job............................

[mianmike]

5 hours ago, macandlucy said:

Yes, I'm puzzled by the nay sayers. Just don't go, no one's forcing you.  Maybe it's a FOMO thing? 

 

It's actually very simple.  The naysayers understand the dynamics of a pandemic and they are altruistic.  It's not like choosing not to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle where your risky behavior only negatively affects you and insurance rates.  

[Casino Comp Chick]

On 9/11/2020 at 1:01 AM, lbt43 said:

I was wondering if or when a cruise line CEO would finally say its time to cruise.  Del Rio finally makes a strong statement against the ban.  We need to cruise, NOW.  The cdc is WRONG.

He is the same person that had his phone reps lie to people regarding Covid-19. He also has not turned in a safety guideline to the CDC. 
It sounds like he is standing up for one thing only....
 

[4774Papa]

10 hours ago, mianmike said:

 

It's actually very simple.  The naysayers understand the dynamics of a pandemic and they are altruistic.  It's not like choosing not to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle where your risky behavior only negatively affects you and insurance rates.  

I know more people that have died riding motorcycles (with or without a helmet) that people that have died of COVID19

[macandlucy]

9 hours ago, ThirstyCruiser said:

Maybe if they were speaking in the MDR while dinner was being served surrounded by as many people as we can expect to see in the MDR when cruising resumes.

Then cut away to the speech continuing as they step out of an elevator into the lobby with as many people present as we can expect to see when cruising resumes.

Then to the promenade on embarkation day.

Then to deck 2 at 7 AM after having just docked.

Then sitting in the theater right before the curtain rises.

Then outside the theater 5 minutes after the curtain drops.

Then in a stairwell between decks 9 and 10 as Abner is huffing and puffing, chin strap barely on, while Edna encourages "Only 2 more flights to go!"

 

If one believes there is a risk of infection to a contagious disease spread via aerosols, is the indoor space on a cruise ship more dangerous compared to the indoor space of any other space where strangers encounter one another? In some cases, yes.

Part of the deal of restarting cruising must include some significant changes to how things are done. Improved air filtration, reduced capacity to allow for distancing (pax count overall and in restaurants and queues, embark, debark, etc.) are necessary for me to be willing to cruise.  We don't have all the details yet, but I expect these (and other) measures to be employed. There's also the things that I can do, and always do now (distancing, masks, hygiene).

 

The overall question I am asking is how is cruising different from the aggregated experiences of currently allowed fly- plus- resort vacations?  

 

The list of potential exposure events you've included above is much lower than a five hour plane ride, where you have close proximity plus extended exposure time. But commercial flights are still permitted. Indoor malls, Walmarts, Home Depots, restaurants, amusement parks are open.  The point that the cruise line CEOs were making is not that cruising is 100% safe (no interactions with any other strangers is), it's that it's not any riskier than all these other "risky" behaviors that are now permitted. And that cruise lines and cruise ship vacations are being singled out when the risk from those is no greater than the risk posed by other experiences that are currently allowed. 

 

Today I can get on a bus, get off at the mall, spend hours there walking among strangers, then go to a restaurant for lunch, get on the train and go see a movie, get on the bus again to go meet my friend at her office building, hop on the elevator, go for an evening stroll along the crowded waterfront, stop at another restaurant and have dinner.  The risks posed by these activities are not substantively different than the risk from a cruise.

 

There was nobody more paranoid than me in February and March, when people were saying things like, "It's just a flu." We cancelled a cruise before the cruise line did because of it, and knowing what we knew then, that was the right thing to do.  Now that I know more, I feel differently.

 

I'm going to quote you again: 

"If one believes there is a risk of infection to a contagious disease spread via aerosols, is the indoor space on a cruise ship more dangerous compared to the indoor space of any other space where strangers encounter one another? In some cases, yes." 

 

And I'll ask, how?  What is it about the indoor space of a ship, especially with the change to protocols we expect, that's different to all the other indoor spaces we can currently share with other strangers? 

 

I think it's time to give us back our choice. People who don't feel safe cruising can feel great about their decision not to cruise, no one is suggesting you should go if you don't think it's safe.  And people who feel that they can live with the risk because of the cruise lines' and their own personal, mitigation efforts, and because they recognize that the risk posed by cruising is not substantively different than the risks posed by things we are currently allowed to do, should be allowed to do that, too, imo.  

 

[Trimone]

6 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

Part of the deal of restarting cruising must include some significant changes to how things are done. Improved air filtration, reduced capacity to allow for distancing (pax count overall and in restaurants and queues, embark, debark, etc.) are necessary for me to be willing to cruise.  We don't have all the details yet, but I expect these (and other) measures to be employed. There's also the things that I can do, and always do now (distancing, masks, hygiene).

 

The overall question I am asking is how is cruising different from the aggregated experiences of currently allowed fly- plus- resort vacations?  

 

The list of potential exposure events you've included above is much lower than a five hour plane ride, where you have close proximity plus extended exposure time. But commercial flights are still permitted. Indoor malls, Walmarts, Home Depots, restaurants, amusement parks are open.  The point that the cruise line CEOs were making is not that cruising is 100% safe (no interactions with any other strangers is), it's that it's not any riskier than all these other "risky" behaviors that are now permitted. And that cruise lines and cruise ship vacations are being singled out when the risk from those is no greater than the risk posed by other experiences that are currently allowed. 

 

Today I can get on a bus, get off at the mall, spend hours there walking among strangers, then go to a restaurant for lunch, get on the train and go see a movie, get on the bus again to go meet my friend at her office building, hop on the elevator, go for an evening stroll along the crowded waterfront, stop at another restaurant and have dinner.  The risks posed by these activities are not substantively different than the risk from a cruise.

 

There was nobody more paranoid than me in February and March, when people were saying things like, "It's just a flu." We cancelled a cruise before the cruise line did because of it, and knowing what we knew then, that was the right thing to do.  Now that I know more, I feel differently.

 

I'm going to quote you again: 

"If one believes there is a risk of infection to a contagious disease spread via aerosols, is the indoor space on a cruise ship more dangerous compared to the indoor space of any other space where strangers encounter one another? In some cases, yes." 

 

And I'll ask, how?  What is it about the indoor space of a ship, especially with the change to protocols we expect, that's different to all the other indoor spaces we can currently share with other strangers? 

 

I think it's time to give us back our choice. People who don't feel safe cruising can feel great about their decision not to cruise, no one is suggesting you should go if you don't think it's safe.  And people who feel that they can live with the risk because of the cruise lines' and their own personal, mitigation efforts, and because they recognize that the risk posed by cruising is not substantively different than the risks posed by things we are currently allowed to do, should be allowed to do that, too, imo.  

 

I think it's time to give us back our choice. People who don't feel safe cruising can feel great about their decision not to cruise, no one is suggesting you should go if you don't think it's safe.  And people who feel that they can live with the risk because of the cruise lines' and their own personal, mitigation efforts, and because they recognize that the risk posed by cruising is not substantively different than the risks posed by things we are currently allowed to do, should be allowed to do that, too, imo.  

What about the risk to the employees, don’t they deserve respect, after all most come from poor countries and have no choice. The CEO of each company should be in a normal balcony cabin with no perks for the first cruise and see how they enjoy it.

Its all about $$$$$ and not safety, I personally hope the CDC doesn’t allow any cruising until a vaccine is tested and available.

[macandlucy]

4 minutes ago, Trimone said:

I think it's time to give us back our choice. People who don't feel safe cruising can feel great about their decision not to cruise, no one is suggesting you should go if you don't think it's safe.  And people who feel that they can live with the risk because of the cruise lines' and their own personal, mitigation efforts, and because they recognize that the risk posed by cruising is not substantively different than the risks posed by things we are currently allowed to do, should be allowed to do that, too, imo.  

What about the risk to the employees, don’t they deserve respect, after all most come from poor countries and have no choice. The CEO of each company should be in a normal balcony cabin with no perks for the first cruise and see how they enjoy it.

Its all about $$$$$ and not safety, I personally hope the CDC doesn’t allow any cruising until a vaccine is tested and available.

Of course the CEOs want to get back to making money, that's their job after all. But they also know that if they screw this up, and there are some serious outbreaks, that cruising will again be cancelled, for who knows how long this time, and that could end the industry as we know it. They have a vested interest in getting it right.

 

If you want to wait until there's a vaccine, I get it. But how effective must the vaccine be? 70% 50%?  How many people must be vaccinated? Do you want to wait til covid-19 is eradicated from the planet? (we'll be waiting a looooong time). 

 

I do understand the fear, and I don't think you should do anything you don't feel safe doing, but I do think the fear of Covid-19 is at kind of unreasonable levels, especially when it comes to cruise ships. But more than that, I'm not trying to change your mind. I just want to have the ability to make decisions for myself. 

[Formula280SS]

24 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

Part of the deal of restarting cruising must include some significant changes to how things are done. Improved air filtration, reduced capacity to allow for distancing (pax count overall and in restaurants and queues, embark, debark, etc.) are necessary for me to be willing to cruise.  We don't have all the details yet, but I expect these (and other) measures to be employed. There's also the things that I can do, and always do now (distancing, masks, hygiene).

 

The overall question I am asking is how is cruising different from the aggregated experiences of currently allowed fly- plus- resort vacations?  

 

The list of potential exposure events you've included above is much lower than a five hour plane ride, where you have close proximity plus extended exposure time. But commercial flights are still permitted. Indoor malls, Walmarts, Home Depots, restaurants, amusement parks are open.  The point that the cruise line CEOs were making is not that cruising is 100% safe (no interactions with any other strangers is), it's that it's not any riskier than all these other "risky" behaviors that are now permitted. And that cruise lines and cruise ship vacations are being singled out when the risk from those is no greater than the risk posed by other experiences that are currently allowed. 

 

Today I can get on a bus, get off at the mall, spend hours there walking among strangers, then go to a restaurant for lunch, get on the train and go see a movie, get on the bus again to go meet my friend at her office building, hop on the elevator, go for an evening stroll along the crowded waterfront, stop at another restaurant and have dinner.  The risks posed by these activities are not substantively different than the risk from a cruise.

 

There was nobody more paranoid than me in February and March, when people were saying things like, "It's just a flu." We cancelled a cruise before the cruise line did because of it, and knowing what we knew then, that was the right thing to do.  Now that I know more, I feel differently.

 

I'm going to quote you again: 

"If one believes there is a risk of infection to a contagious disease spread via aerosols, is the indoor space on a cruise ship more dangerous compared to the indoor space of any other space where strangers encounter one another? In some cases, yes." 

 

And I'll ask, how?  What is it about the indoor space of a ship, especially with the change to protocols we expect, that's different to all the other indoor spaces we can currently share with other strangers? 

 

I think it's time to give us back our choice. People who don't feel safe cruising can feel great about their decision not to cruise, no one is suggesting you should go if you don't think it's safe.  And people who feel that they can live with the risk because of the cruise lines' and their own personal, mitigation efforts, and because they recognize that the risk posed by cruising is not substantively different than the risks posed by things we are currently allowed to do, should be allowed to do that, too, imo.  

 

 

Agreed and well stated.  👍👏

 

Those in the other 50% that don't want to cruise need not impose such personal decision on literally hundreds of thousands of other who chose differently.

 

Next, the PIVOT will the the safety concerns for non-electing cruisers; crew, port staff, airlines, hotels, etc.

 

It's, in a general sense, across all societal levels, about not really taking care of "just" ones' self but rather imposing such on others (at the simplest level "not minding ones own business" one could say).

 

Here is a basic missive re: such (no copyright).

 

10 Reasons Why People Don’t Mind Their Own Business

 

1. People don’t mind their own business because they think they know better

 

People don’t mind their own business because they honestly think they know better. And they would do whatever it takes to let everyone know that they are ‘right’ and the rest of the world is ‘wrong.’

 

2. People don’t mind their own business because they are disconnected

 

People don’t mind their own business because they are completely disconnected from their own Truth.

 

They can no longer hear their inner guidance, and they really believe that it’s their responsibility to interfere in the life and affairs of those around them, and ‘save’ everyone.

 

3. People don’t mind their own business because they have nothing better to do

 

People don’t mind their own business because they honestly don’t know what else to do with their time. They are so bored with themselves and their lives that they’re looking for ways to bring some excitement and exhilaration into theirs. And unfortunately for those around them, interfering in the life and affairs of others helps them forget how bored they truly are.

 

 4. People don’t mind their own business because Your business is better than Their business

 

Why are they poking into other people’s affairs?

 

Because they love it!

 

To them, Your business is a lot more interesting than Their business. And they just love making uninvited inquiries into the private affairs of others.

 

5. People don’t mind their own business because they don’t have a purpose

 

People who don’t mind their own business are people who have no clear focus in life and no meaningful purpose. They just don’t know what is it that they should do with themselves and their lives. And they confuse interfering with helping.

 

When you know who you are and what your purpose in life is, you have no interest in interfering in other people’s lives. You know that each being is sacred and that we all have a unique path to walk upon. And you trust that the same Higher Power that guides you on Your Path, will guide everyone else as one Their Path. Thus, You mind your own business and you don’t play God with anyone.

 

6. People don’t mind their own business because they are unhappy

 

People who don’t mind their own business are sad, lonely, and unhappy people. They might not know this and they might not want to admit it, but they are.

 

A happy person is too busy being happy.

 

They understand the value of time and how precious their energy is, and they don’t waste any on interfering in the lives and affairs of others.

 

They just don’t!

 

7. People don’t mind their own business because they feel unworthy

 

Those who don’t mind their own business are usually people with hidden insecurities; people who feel small, insignificant, unworthy, and undeserving; people who need to ‘do something’ and ‘say something’ in order to feel worthy and loved.

 

By offering their unsolicited ‘help’ and ‘advice’, they feel like they have a purpose in life. And that makes them feel a bit better about themselves.

 

8. People don’t mind their own business because they think they are ‘saving’ you

 

Many of them don’t mean any harm. They really don’t! And all they want to do is ‘save’ you from whatever it is they think you need saving from. But what they don’t realize is that just as Buddha said it,

 

“No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path.” ~ Buddha

 

The ‘savior’ is within, not without!

 

9. People don’t mind their own business because they need help

 

There is a powerful quote in A Course in Miracles that goes like this:

 

“Do not attempt to help a person in your own way. Your interpretations of the other person’s needs are the interpretations of your own needs. By giving help you are asking for it.” ~ A Course in Miracles

 

By offering help to those who never asked for it and by constantly interfering in other people’s, these people are in fact begging for help and asking for the healing of their deeply hidden wounds.

 

They offer ‘help’ because they need help.

 

10. People don’t mind their own business because they are afraid

 

They are afraid to deal with their own shadows and their own darkness and they would rather try to ‘correct’ and ‘fix’ the whole world than take a look at themselves in the mirror.

 

For them, the problem is always Out there – in the world, but never In here – in themselves.

 

And these are some of the many reasons so many people, instead of focusing on their own lives and their own happiness, they interfere in the life and affairs of others.

 

It happens.

 

And even though we might be tempted to judge and criticize them harshly, it would do us more good and bring us more peace to treat them with love and compassion. Because I’m sure that at one point in our lives, we have all done, or might do some of these things.

 

Life has a funny way of surprising us.

 

And if walking away is something you feel guided to do, then walking away you should.

 

 

[rhblake]

51 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

And I'll ask, how?  What is it about the indoor space of a ship, especially with the change to protocols we expect, that's different to all the other indoor spaces we can currently share with other strangers?  

It is about the amount of time you spend in that indoor space. I going shopping once a week but I am only in the store or an hour or less, then back home. If I go to a restaurant I am there for an hour or so, then back home. In a ship you will eat, sleep, play and lounge together for 168 (24 hours x 7 days) hours. I think it is all about the potential amount exposure time.

Edited September 14, 2020 by rhblake

[macandlucy]

3 minutes ago, rhblake said:

It is about the amount of time you spend in that indoor space. I going shopping once a week but I am only in the store or an hour or less, then back home. If I go to a restaurant I am there for an hour or so, then back home. In a ship you will eat, sleep, play and lounge together for 168 (24 x 7) hours. I think it is all about the potential amount exposure time.

So much of the risk is within our own, individual control. I would not rely on any business to keep me safe; I keep myself safe. By my personal choices and behaviors, I lower my own risk to what is, for me, an acceptable level. I also drive a car. That's got some risk associated with it to, but it's one we are comfortable with.

 

The same people thing I actually see that as a benefit, especially if pre-embark testing is required, which I hope is. Then we're all in just a very large "bubble", as opposed to the strangers we encounter in our daily lives.  Combine that with distancing, hygiene and masks, and for me, it's an okay risk level. It's not zero and it's probably never going to be zero, but it's low enough for me to feel okay.

 

You and I may be only going out once a week, but we aren't forbidden from going out every day. And while we may not be out a lot, many people are. On buses, on subways, in office buildings, malls, etc. We have the option to go out as much as we like and in doing so effectively mimic a cruise ship experience. We have that choice today; we don't have that choice for cruising today.