Carnival Corp ships will need court approval 60 days before restarting cruises, judge says

[seastheday]

On our Feb 2020 cruise we were really disappointed to see the discharge of a noticeably large volume of oily waste from the ship, not once, but at least twice while in open ocean. 

[sarellen8385]

How exactly does an auditor check for compliance?

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, seastheday said:

On our Feb 2020 cruise we were really disappointed to see the discharge of a noticeably large volume of oily waste from the ship, not once, but at least twice while in open ocean. 

I would be very surprised at that.  What time of day, and where abouts on the ship was this?  I may have been cooking oil, which is allowed to be discharged.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, sarellen8385 said:

How exactly does an auditor check for compliance?

Since the majority of violations are record keeping violations, he will check to see that they are properly kept.  He will then start checking things like waste oil or bilge water tank levels, and go back to the last audit, and see that the amount recorded as taken into these tanks, and the amount recorded as removed from these tanks totals correctly, and then that all transfers into and out of the tanks are by approved methods.  They also have industry standards of waste oil and bilge water accumulations to measure against the recorded figures to see whether things have not been recorded.  And, finally, they will see operational tests of environmental equipment like the oil/water separator.

 

They will compare the records showing where fuels were switched, or scrubbers put on, against the recorded ship's position from the bridge, to verify ECA limits were met.

 

It's a pretty stringent inspection, and if you are doing something you shouldn't be, the chances are very good that you have slipped up in some minor way that leads to admissions of greater concerns.  Been through DOJ probations with two companies now, pretty familiar with the process.

[sarellen8385]

Thanks, Chief, this gives me a visual of the process.  

[spyro1952]

12 hours ago, Thrak said:

I understand the environmental issues and why many folks are upset about those issues. However, I'm sick of judges who think the word "judge" is the same as the word "god". It amazes me how some judge in Florida or some judge in California can decide what is "right and correct" for the whole dang country.

Since no one else looks after our climate challenges or environmental challenges it’s left up to judges.  Corporate knew about this for years and has continued to pollute the oceans.  Without clean oceans the Florida economy will tank.  I live in Florida very near the beach and know how dire the situation of our seas is.

[kjg46]

I believe the Enchanted Princess will sail as scheduled. New ship with all of the latest "world saving" controls.

All the best to cruisers. I hope to be on it for the TA.

[nocl]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Since the majority of violations are record keeping violations, he will check to see that they are properly kept.  He will then start checking things like waste oil or bilge water tank levels, and go back to the last audit, and see that the amount recorded as taken into these tanks, and the amount recorded as removed from these tanks totals correctly, and then that all transfers into and out of the tanks are by approved methods.  They also have industry standards of waste oil and bilge water accumulations to measure against the recorded figures to see whether things have not been recorded.  And, finally, they will see operational tests of environmental equipment like the oil/water separator.

 

They will compare the records showing where fuels were switched, or scrubbers put on, against the recorded ship's position from the bridge, to verify ECA limits were met.

 

It's a pretty stringent inspection, and if you are doing something you shouldn't be, the chances are very good that you have slipped up in some minor way that leads to admissions of greater concerns.  Been through DOJ probations with two companies now, pretty familiar with the process.

If I recall there were a few incidents that went beyond record keeping.  At least one discharge in Alaskan waters, another near Florida.  When the judge threatened them with banning them from US waters during the last violation of probation one of the issues dealt with improper handling and sorting of food waste which allowed plastic to get dumped into the ocean

Edited October 17, 2020 by nocl

[WAMarathoner]

19 hours ago, caribill said:

“I will determine whether the level of compliance...whether it is appropriate that that ship enter and operate in US waters,” she said.

 

 

 

That's pretty damn self-important.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

If I recall there were a few incidents that went beyond record keeping.  At least one discharge in Alaskan waters, another near Florida.  When the judge threatened them with banning them from US waters during the last violation of probation one of the issues dealt with improper handling and sorting of food waste which allowed plastic to get dumped into the ocean

Yes, there were, as I said.  However, the discharge in Alaskan waters was never proved that any oil whatsoever went over the side.  And the Bahamas one (near Florida) was a discharge of gray water where it should not have been done, but discharge of gray water is allowed in most of the world.  The plastic one is very difficult, because it requires hand sorting of food waste to remove things like straws, plastic butter pat cups, etc.  As I've said ever since the start of this fiasco, the violations are serious, mainly because of the widespread findings on many ships, but also just because they are violations.  If the recordkeeping is not done properly, the acts will not be done properly, so one follows the other, but in most cases they were errors in records.

 

Were there discharges?  Yes.  Were they actually polluting, or just mishandling of waste streams?

Edited October 17, 2020 by chengkp75

[chengkp75]

27 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

That's pretty damn self-important.

Who are you going to rely on to determine whether the ship is compliant to sail in US waters?  The cruise line?  We've seen how that works.  She has the services of the USCG Cruise Ship National Center of Expertise, and a third party auditor who is trained in environmental compliance.

[pms4104]

43 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

That's pretty damn self-important.

Her way, perhaps, of telling a foreign corporation that it cannot make up its own rules ... nor can it pick and choose which US laws to follow and which to reject. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by pms4104

[donaldsc]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

In my opinion, the judge is showing prudence given the following circumstances:

1.  Carnival's past performance, or lack thereof, in environmental compliance

2.  The likely fact that the Carnival ships have not been under any Port State Control since the pandemic started, so no governmental oversight of their environmental compliance.

3.  The likely fact that the 3rd party auditors, and court appointed auditor assigned by the judge to monitor the probation have not been able to board the ships, whether due to travel restrictions here or in the countries where the ships are currently or due to Carnival simply denying boarding due to Covid concerns, and so there being no judicial oversight of their compliance.

 

Since, if I remember correctly, CEO Donald, among others, is both civilly and criminally liable for any future violations of the probation, making him certify that the ships are, and have been, compliant during this time of shutdown, places a huge burden on him for honesty and transparency, which will be proven or disproven when the auditors can board the ships and verify compliance.

 

If the CEO is criminally liable, how come they are not in jail w the rest of the crooks since they admitted that they did not comply with the requirements of the 1st order when they paid the fine for the 2nd order.  BTW, the 2 fines that they paid are just round off error in a business of their size and are probably tax deductible as a business expense and will be ignored by the corporation.  Denying them access to US waters for the rest of their probation would get their attention and after all, there are lots of ships that are not owned by Carnival that people can cruise on.  

 

Reminds me of one of the songs in one of the Gilbert and Sullivan operas - make the punishment fit the crime.

 

DON

[rabin1]

Hi,

I live in South Florida. Micky Arison the man that owns Carnival is not a nice person. He pretends to be but isn;t. He is always about the money. He also owns the Miami Heat. We see on TV and newsprint things about him all the time down here.

I was booked on the December 20 Panama Canal cruise. I cancelled it on Monday. NONE of the Carnival owned ships will be sailing anytime soon.

Kathy

Here is a copy of the article from Channel 10 News Miami.

MIAMI – Since Carnival Corp. is on probation over an environmental crimes case, a U.S. District Judge for the Southern District of Florida announced Friday that she is not going to make it easy for Carnival Corp. to resume cruise operations in the U.S.

Carnival Corp. has been on probation for about three years after pleading guilty to 2016 felony charges stemming from its deliberate dumping of oil-contaminated waste from one of its vessels and intentional acts to cover it up.

Judge Patricia A. Seitz said the cruise line giant has had continuous compliance issues. The alleged violations include dumping sewage and plastic. The company with nine brands and more than 100 cruise ships has also been accused of failing to establish an effective internal investigations operation.

 

“We strive to be perfect,” Chairman Micky Arison told Seitz during a hearing late last year. “We won’t ever be perfect, but we are going to work toward that.”

In 2002, prosecutors accused Carnival of falsifying records while ships discharged oily waste into the sea from 1996 through 2001. The company has paid about $60 million in fines over the initial 2012-13 violations and a 2019 probation violation.

 

Seitz said she plans to order the Miami-based company to certify each ship’s compliance with environmental laws. When she issues the order, Carnival will have to notify her 60 days before resuming operations.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s No Sail Order for cruise ships is in effect through Oct. 31. Carnival announced on Oct. 12 that cruise operations at PortMiami and Port Canaveral are canceled for the rest of the year.

Copyright 2020 by WPLG Local10.com - All rights reserved.

 

 

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[skynight]

rabin1

Lines owned by Carnival Corp will sail from US waters. The lines will meet the 60 day legal requirements. It's their business. Sailings will commence when pandemic conditions make sailings profitable to resume. The cruise industry contributes lots of income and jobs to Florida and other US home ports and ports of call. 

[nocl]

21 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

If the CEO is criminally liable, how come they are not in jail w the rest of the crooks since they admitted that they did not comply with the requirements of the 1st order when they paid the fine for the 2nd order.  BTW, the 2 fines that they paid are just round off error in a business of their size and are probably tax deductible as a business expense and will be ignored by the corporation.  Denying them access to US waters for the rest of their probation would get their attention and after all, there are lots of ships that are not owned by Carnival that people can cruise on.  

 

Reminds me of one of the songs in one of the Gilbert and Sullivan operas - make the punishment fit the crime.

 

DON

At the last hearing he did have to physically appear and the Judge at that time said asked him why should the ships not be banned. As well as indicating that any additional failures to comply would result in removal from US water

[nocl]

1 minute ago, CarelessAndConfused said:

 

Well don't keep us hanging!  What was his response?

Do not recall seeing his exact words in the news articles after the judge had her say, which according to reports indicated indicated extreme displeasure.

[nocl]

25 minutes ago, CarelessAndConfused said:

 

Well don't keep us hanging!  What was his response?

Did some looking and did find this

 

"I sincerely regret these mistakes. I do take responsibility for the problems we had," Arnold told the judge. "I'm extremely personally disappointed we have them. I am personally committed to achieve best in class for compliance."

[rabin1]

Read in my post what psycho babble Mickey Arinson said. He is very charismatic. Guess this time it didn;t work. 

If she is saying they can;t sail for 60 days I wonder if that means after the CDC says that ships can sail or from the date of her order and if they are starting the compliance checking now?

Either way I cancelled my cruise no way am I going on the December 20 cruise. 

Have a great day everyone

Kathy

[pcur]

As of this morning, Princess has 13 itineraries scheduled to cruise from San Pedro, San Francisco, and Ft Lauderdale with 12/19/20 -12/26/20 sail dates .

[CruiseMrB]

The judge is making a great play here. She knows that she has more leverage now than she had before when the ships were operational and flowing in and out of American waters with people on board. This is great.

 

I hope, but don't assume, that Carnival takes this ruling to heart kind of like Volkswagen did with Dieselgate. VW bit the bullet and dumped diesel and went headlong into electric. We can hope that Carnival would bite the bullet and be the cleanest cruise line in the world. Not likely, though.

Edited October 18, 2020 by CruiseMrB

[Cruise Raider]

On 10/16/2020 at 7:25 PM, LawDog61 said:

This look really serious.  My thoughts, in no particular order:

1) We are dedicated west coast princess cruisers and noted with interest RC’s vague statements about returning to the west coast.   We may end up needing them here.

2). Corporate assets can be sold to different companies (perhaps specifically formed for this purpose) so as  not to be subject to the order.

3). Certainly not in Florida, but which WOKE West Coast city  will the the first to simply ban cruise ships on environmental grounds? Los Angeles ? San Francisco? Seattle?

 

#3 makes me sad to think about it ... sad because you are probably not too far off the mark.  It will probably be San Francisco because the pier is right in the middle of town and each time there is a ship in port, it causes incredible traffic jams.  It would make me very sad to see this happen.  Seattle has similar issues (Bell's Pier), although they do have a port that is located a little further out (Smith's Cove).  We could kiss the majority of the Alaska cruises goodbye if Seattle chooses to shut down.  And, it wouldn't surprise me if Vancouver was right behind them.  Maybe not but, that would be my big concern.  LA is set up for cruises and not smack in the middle of the tourist or financial district so, I would think this would be the most likely to survive, but ... their mayor!  That's all I will say on that matter.  

 

Well, at least this judge issued this order before cruising started back up.  It is unlikely that any cruise would be starting up before 2 months anyway.  

Well, just my thoughts!!  

[LawDog61]

I have to agree with you about it Vancouver too.

[nocl]

22 minutes ago, CarelessAndConfused said:

Just how bad are the environmental implications of cruising?  I mean I realize they are going to have some detrimental impact but I've always weighed that against what the alternatives would be, at least for my own situation specifically in terms of land based travel and all the gas that a plane carrying about a mere 100 passengers can guzzle and all of the other considerations.  I've recently already decided that I'm willing to cruise out of SF (since I can walk/public transpo to and from there) even though I hate the extra sea days.  But if cruising is really as bad as all that, and someone can articulate it to me, I will have to seriously reflect and curtail the amount of cruising I'm willing to do.

One of the main issues with ships is the grade of diesel that they burn and the particulates as well as the amount of nitrogen oxides in the emissions.   According to one report I saw a cruise ship emits about 3-4 times the CO2 per passenger mile than does a jet.  Newer larger ships, are more efficient in that category than the older smaller ships, but it would really that the LNG ships to get that down. Of course the comparison is not a direct one because it does not account for the dining and hotel functions.  A true comparison would be to add 1 nights lodging to the aircraft comparison or subtract the same amount from the cruise ship.  I would suspect that the ratio would be a little better but still against the cruise ship.

Edited October 18, 2020 by nocl

[donaldsc]

3 hours ago, pcur said:

As of this morning, Princess has 13 itineraries scheduled to cruise from San Pedro, San Francisco, and Ft Lauderdale with 12/19/20 -12/26/20 sail dates .

 

Wishful thinking.

 

DON