100% vaccinated sailings

[HAL4NOW]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

The Americans With Disabilities Act can cause strange results.

 

I remember going to a school board meeting once, and there was a new directive from the federal government being discussed. It made taking a weapon into school grounds for automatic suspension, but there was a catch. It did not apply to a special ed. student if taking the weapon into school related to his or her disability. If so, you could not suspend because that would have been discrimination.

 

We in the audience were all aghast at the absurdity of this. Someone who brought a weapon due to their disability would be the very last person you would want in a school with a weapon. And eventually even in the government saw the absurdity, and made a change. You could do an emergency suspension.

The problem starts becoming even more absurd when the definition of "weapon" gets diluted and lifetime expulsion is the stick to prevent "weapons" from being brought to school.

I was a Special Education Preschool Teacher and one of the 4 year-old boys brought a wooden gun to school. Rather than reporting him to principal and ruining his educational chances, I put the gun in a paper bag and stapled it shut. Then I phoned his mom to see if she wanted the "weapon" returned home with him in his backpack that day. The letter of the school rule would have been lifetime explulsion. Common sense said otherwise.

[igraf]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

If the ADA banned any activity that people with one disability or another could participate in we would have to close every roller coaster, sky diving operation, vehicle licensing - and driving while we are at it. Yep, the blind cannot drive so we need to ban driving.    Let's stick with feasibilities.  

 

Driving is legally defined as a privilege, not a right.  

 

igraf

 

[ontheweb]

11 minutes ago, HAL4NOW said:

The problem starts becoming even more absurd when the definition of "weapon" gets diluted and lifetime expulsion is the stick to prevent "weapons" from being brought to school.

I was a Special Education Preschool Teacher and one of the 4 year-old boys brought a wooden gun to school. Rather than reporting him to principal and ruining his educational chances, I put the gun in a paper bag and stapled it shut. Then I phoned his mom to see if she wanted the "weapon" returned home with him in his backpack that day. The letter of the school rule would have been lifetime explulsion. Common sense said otherwise.

Good for you doing the sensible thing.👍

[Hlitner]

This morning I saw an interesting news story.  A young lady, in her 20s, had a decent job (which she liked) working as a waitress.  Her employer decided that all the employees must be vaccinated.  The young lady, who claims she is not an anti-vaxer, was not prepared to be vaccinated because she had some questions whether the vaccine could impact her fertility.  She was newly married and planned on having children in the near future.  She told her employer that she had no problem wearing a mask, but she would not accept a vaccination until there was more information about any impact it could have on women planning to have children.  Her employer fired her!  She now has a lawyer and who knows where this will end.   I suspect this is one of the first of many legal issues that are going to arise in the next few months.

 

Hank

[HappyInVan]

59 minutes ago, igraf said:

 

The COVID vaccines require two weeks to build up immunity in the body.  The 5% who got sick after immunization was largely a result of being infected within the two week period after the first shot.  The new mRNA vaccines are close to 100% effective if one allows time for the antibodies to develop.

 

Nothing is 100% effective in the real world. Let's review the studies.

 

The preliminary data set from Pfizer's Trial III was based on just a couple of hundred infections. The conclusion was that vaccinated participants had a 95% probability of protection from symptoms.

 

Do note that the trial did not check for protection from infection. Other brands did check efficacy for protection from infection. Their finds was in the range 50-66% on average.

 

What matters are the results in the real world. In the UK, they have had a chance to vax large numbers.

 

“The younger vaccinated group — health care workers under 65 — showed a 72 percent protection against infection with a single dose, rising to 85 percent after the second dose. Health care workers in the study are tested every two weeks.”

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-coronavirus-vaccines-cutting-hospitalization-and-death-rates/

 

Do note that this group (health care workers) have been trained in safety protocols, and practice workplace safety every day. Likely represents the high end of performance.

 

Tom Dick and Harry are likely to have lower protection, in the 50-66% range. That is why we still need to follow safety protocols on cruise ships, after being vax.

 

The really good news is that serious outcomes are slashed...

 

“Based on the latest data, scientists in England estimate that hospitalization and death rates will fall around 75 percent in those who receive a single dose of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine...”

 

Bear in mind that results vary for sub-groups...

 

“In the over 80s, the jab is 57 percent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19 three to four weeks after the first dose. This rises to more than 85 percent after the second dose.”

 

[igraf]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

Nothing is 100% effective in the real world. Let's review the studies.

 

The preliminary data set from Pfizer's Trial III was based on just a couple of hundred infections. The conclusion was that vaccinated participants had a 95% probability of protection from symptoms.

 

..

 

“In the over 80s, the jab is 57 percent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19 three to four weeks after the first dose. This rises to more than 85 percent after the second dose.”

 

There are common misconceptions about vaccine efficacy.  Vaccines do prevent infections, they prevent serious illness from infections.   If an 80-year old person was only mildly sick from COVID, then the vaccine worked.  You will find that very few Moderna/Pfizer recipients died or had to be hospitalized.

 

Another point is that the second injection raises efficacy because not only from the second dose of vaccine, but also because more time had passed thus allowing for the antibodies to develop.  Data is coming out places like Israel with high vaccination rates that support this.  In fact, it is becoming clear that giving everyone one dose sooner is much better than giving half the population two doses.

 

igraf

 

[Laminator]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:19 AM, PoolSlider said:

There is already a CDC database containing the ID info including names and addresses and vial IDs of anyone who receives a COVID vaccine. I would think they will create a window into that system for travel providers (and others) similar to a No Fly list where names are matched. 

That is not true. The CDC is not collecting this information. 

IIS | Contacts for Immunization Records | CDC

Edited February 27, 2021 by Laminator

[Mary229]

3 hours ago, igraf said:

 

Driving is legally defined as a privilege, not a right.  

 

igraf

 

and so is cruising.  That is my point

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

This morning I saw an interesting news story.  A young lady, in her 20s, had a decent job (which she liked) working as a waitress.  Her employer decided that all the employees must be vaccinated.  The young lady, who claims she is not an anti-vaxer, was not prepared to be vaccinated because she had some questions whether the vaccine could impact her fertility.  She was newly married and planned on having children in the near future.  She told her employer that she had no problem wearing a mask, but she would not accept a vaccination until there was more information about any impact it could have on women planning to have children.  Her employer fired her!  She now has a lawyer and who knows where this will end.   I suspect this is one of the first of many legal issues that are going to arise in the next few months.

 

Hank

Where would anyone in their 20s be on a priority list to get vaccinated other than first line medical workers or possibly first responders? Since it would be impossible at the moment for that waitress to get vaccinated, how could an employer fire her for not being vaccinated? Sounds like made up news to me.

[JohnDG]

6 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I am still in the camp that the lines don't want to make the call, they want some higher authority to do so

Crystal seems to have made the call.

[Mary229]

3 minutes ago, JohnDG said:

Crystal seems to have made the call.

I don’t think the mega lines who rely on family and younger cruisers want to follow the lead of the few smaller lines who cater to a different demographic 

 

now if the CDC said you can cruise with 100% they would quickly join 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Mary229

[fatcat04]

59 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Where would anyone in their 20s be on a priority list to get vaccinated other than first line medical workers or possibly first responders? Since it would be impossible at the moment for that waitress to get vaccinated, how could an employer fire her for not being vaccinated? Sounds like made up news to me.

New York State 

https://www.grubstreet.com/2021/02/cuomo-makes-ny-restaurant-workers-vaccine-eligible.html

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-city-waitress-fired-after-not-getting-covid-19-n1258155

 

edit: A much more detailed article.  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9272291/NYC-waitress-fired-job-saying-wanted-wait-COVID-19-vaccine.html

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by fatcat04

[Tampa Girl]

On 2/26/2021 at 10:30 AM, mcrcruiser said:

I agree  .The only problem is can non US residents  get vaccines even if the cruise company's want to buy those shots for their crews  ?

 

On 2/26/2021 at 10:30 AM, KirkNC said:

EEOC has already ruled that a business can require employees to be vaccinated.  
 

https://hrexecutive.com/employers-can-legally-require-covid-vaccines-but-will-they/

 

On 2/26/2021 at 10:53 AM, mcrcruiser said:

 That is a good question  . Thinking of other countries that ships would dock & what their government requirements might be that all pax & crew must be vaccinated with proof  .That would be a big problem for those few people 

What category of non-U.S. residents are you thinking of?  Staff aboard a ship?  If the passengers have already been vaccinated prior to boarding, who else are you talking about?  If they are aboard the ship, whether passengers, crew, staff, officers, entertainers, etc., surely they would also have been vaccinated prior to coming aboard.

 

[Tampa Girl]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Where would anyone in their 20s be on a priority list to get vaccinated other than first line medical workers or possibly first responders? Since it would be impossible at the moment for that waitress to get vaccinated, how could an employer fire her for not being vaccinated? Sounds like made up news to me.

I doubt that it is made-up news.  The employer can fire her for any reason.  She can choose not to be vaccinated, and the employer can choose to dispense with her.  The employer is probably dictating that when vaccines are available for her age group or occupational status, she must get vaccinated.  If she chooses not to, she can look for another job.

[Tampa Girl]

23 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

The Supreme Court has already ruled:  "Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state."

 

That should be made required reading for all those who think that their "freedom" is absolute!  Thank you for posting that.

[Tampa Girl]

6 hours ago, Mary229 said:

It doesn't matter if it is in "our best interest", there is no law for that.  However you are right the courts have given entities the right to limit access to their activities/locations by requiring a vaccine.  I do believe you still need a TB test to engage in certain employment.  This is different than mandating a vaccine for the entire population.  

 

I am still in the camp that the lines don't want to make the call, they want some higher authority to do so

 

But we are not talking about the Government mandating the entire population.  We are not even talking about the Government mandating it for a portion of the population.  The discussion  has been about businesses mandating a vaccine and, as you mentioned, legitimized by the U.S. Supreme Court. The reasoning comes under the category of "substantial public interest", and that is a legal justification.  

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

But we are not talking about the Government mandating the entire population.  We are not even talking about the Government mandating it for a portion of the population.  The discussion  has been about businesses mandating a vaccine and, as you mentioned, legitimized by the U.S. Supreme Court. The reasoning comes under the category of "substantial public interest", and that is a legal justification.  

You are actually making my argument.  The conversation had gone off to the ADA (American Disability Act)creating an issue for banning the lines from creating a vaccine “mandate to cruise policy.”

Edited February 27, 2021 by Mary229

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Where would anyone in their 20s be on a priority list to get vaccinated other than first line medical workers or possibly first responders? Since it would be impossible at the moment for that waitress to get vaccinated, how could an employer fire her for not being vaccinated? Sounds like made up news to me.

That is the kind of thing that would only happen in your State...which I believe is where it has happened.  

 

Hank

[CruiserBruce]

On 2/26/2021 at 7:30 AM, mcrcruiser said:

I agree  .The only problem is can non US residents  get vaccines even if the cruise company's want to buy those shots for their crews  ?

There will come a time when the cruise lines will be able to buy large numbers of doses on the open market, legally. It is now being predicted the US will possess more than enough vaccine doses to cover the eligible population (over 16, or 18 age, depending on the vaccine) by later July, or possibly August. There are now 700 million doses of approved vaccines on order for the US. Possibly 3 more vaccines to be approved...I believe these 3 unapproved vaccines represent another 3 or 400 million doses on order by the US alone. Keep in mind that subtracting the currently ineligible,  the US has about 270 million eligible residents. And there are other vaccines in the pipeline in the world, as well as the production commitments by the known and approved vendors to other countries besides the US.

 

Canada and Great Britain also have predicted over supply of approved vaccines on order. I imagine several other countries find themselves in the same situation...the countries bet all the horses in the race in case one or more were unsuccessful. 

[YXU AC*SE]

I'd less worry about a cruise line requirement rn, than a country requirement.  No vax, no admissibility, or transit.    Scott. 

 

https://www.who.int/ith/2016-ith-county-list.pdf

 

 

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, fatcat04 said:

New York State 

https://www.grubstreet.com/2021/02/cuomo-makes-ny-restaurant-workers-vaccine-eligible.html

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-city-waitress-fired-after-not-getting-covid-19-n1258155

 

edit: A much more detailed article.  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9272291/NYC-waitress-fired-job-saying-wanted-wait-COVID-19-vaccine.html

 

Wow, my governor is a real piece of work. First he says he will not approve the vaccines for our state until his own panel reviews them. He then backed down when the President said, fine we'll just not send any vaccine to your state. And now he is going to prioritize 20 year old waitresses. It really does boggle the mind.

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, HAL4NOW said:

The problem starts becoming even more absurd when the definition of "weapon" gets diluted and lifetime expulsion is the stick to prevent "weapons" from being brought to school.

I was a Special Education Preschool Teacher and one of the 4 year-old boys brought a wooden gun to school. Rather than reporting him to principal and ruining his educational chances, I put the gun in a paper bag and stapled it shut. Then I phoned his mom to see if she wanted the "weapon" returned home with him in his backpack that day. The letter of the school rule would have been lifetime explulsion. Common sense said otherwise.

Yes, zero tolerance can become absurd. I remember reading of a kindergartner being suspended for bringing in his brother's boy scout knife. Sometimes you wonder about the common sense of administrators. (And I spent 5 years as a school board member.)

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

That is the kind of thing that would only happen in your State...which I believe is where it has happened.  

 

Hank

I hang my head in shame. Unfortunately, unlike California, we do not have the capacity to recall elected officials.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Tampa Girl said:

I doubt that it is made-up news.  The employer can fire her for any reason.  She can choose not to be vaccinated, and the employer can choose to dispense with her.  The employer is probably dictating that when vaccines are available for her age group or occupational status, she must get vaccinated.  If she chooses not to, she can look for another job.

I wonder if it could make a difference when her case comes to court that the vaccine only has emergency authorization, not fully approved by the FDA.

[PoolSlider]

8 hours ago, Laminator said:

That is not true. The CDC is not collecting this information. 

IIS | Contacts for Immunization Records | CDC

You linked a site about children’s vaccination records. Not equivalent.