Mandatory vaccination

[coffeebean]

18 minutes ago, roger001 said:

And therein lies the problem.  If...I become infected and happen to pass the virus to one of the folks in the two younger age groups, then I probably will not be given them an issue more than a mild flu experience, especially for the younger group.  But...if one of that group becomes infected, although it is a minor issue to them, if they pass it to me there is a very good chance for hospitalization for me or even dying.   So, the need for the younger groups to wear a mask and stand back is not for their good health.  It is for mine.  Unfortunately, a number of those in the younger age groups are refusing to mask up and in doing so are being extremely irresponsible towards us older folks.  I have a nephew that doesn't mask and won't do so even if a store says it is required.  He told me, "I am not going to live in fear and change or inconvenience my life even if it kills me.....or even it it kills others."  I'm really not liking my nephew at the moment and think he is a totally self centered and selfish jerk.  However, he is certainly not alone in that behavior.  

To all those who have this attitude.... Thank you for perpetuating this damn virus in our country. You are selfish and very uninformed, IMHO.

Edited February 23, 2021 by coffeebean

[coffeebean]

On 2/22/2021 at 10:20 AM, macandlucy said:

For the vaccine averse: if it's the new mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) you are hesitant about, there are other vaccine candidates awaiting emergency use authorization that are not mRNA vaccines. 

I don't understand the hesitancy for mRNA vaccines. These vaccines have been developed over a period of at least 10 years. The mRNA technology is also being used for cancer treatment. It is not new so why the hesitancy?

[oteixeira]

2 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

I don't understand the hesitancy for mRNA vaccines. These vaccines have been developed over a period of at least 10 years. The mRNA technology is also being used for cancer treatment. It is not new so why the hesitancy?

Some people are just scared because it's the "first ever" as a vaccine.  I would be happy to take it.  As for where you quoted me on the fact that J&J is not as good as mRNA, I am aware of that, but I was giving another option to a poster who is against/afraid of the mRNA options.  Just trying to get more people on board with getting vaccinated so this can be over already.

Edited February 23, 2021 by oteixeira

[coffeebean]

16 hours ago, Stick93 said:

You compared the shingles shot to the COVID vaccine. The science and technology behind the two are totally different and one is FDA approved while the other is the largest human trial in the history of the world (if you guessed the COVID shot for this you are correct). Also this vaccine has no provable time frame for immunity. It’s possible that in three months you will have no immunity to the virus. There is also the possibly of a new strain. So many questions for science and people believing they will be cruising ahead of the non vaccinated! Assumptions - not a good thing in general. 
 

Your comments above seemed to say that people who refuse will be at home and you will not. Maybe I embellished your comments but the sentiment was how it read. I don’t buy that cruises will be viable excluding people. I have no issue with the possibility of this happening as I think it may come to fruition, but it will hurt the vacation industry by excluding well paying people at a time they will need everyone. There will be plenty of people excluded who take the vaccine already for many medical reasons. 
 

I am sorry about your sister and living in fear is the reality most people are facing today more than ever.  It’s sad and it’s because nobody is getting unfiltered and non-biased information. The news is biased both ways and continues to keep their audience with fear itself. 
 

 

Millions of guinea pigs (oh I mean humans) world wide have been jabbed with the mRNA vaccines and so far, so good. There have not been any reports, so far that I can find, that have directly linked these vaccines to deaths. Every death occurring within a certain time frame of a person getting the vaccine is investigated, including medical records of the deceased. As I said, so far not one death has been reported as a direct result of the person receiving the mRNA vaccine. Yes, there have been deaths, but not linked to the vaccines.

 

I do agree with you that the length of immunity has not been determined as yet with the mRNA vaccines. That is a waiting game for all of us who have been vaccinated with mRNA vaccines. Let's just hope our memory T Cells will kick into high gear and attack the virus if we should ever come in contact with the Covid virus. From what I have read about our immune response, those T Cells have been taught to identify the Covid virus and should spring into action should they be needed. All thanks to the mRNA vaccines.

 

 

[coffeebean]

15 minutes ago, oteixeira said:

Some people are just scared because it's the "first ever" as a vaccine.  I would be happy to take it.  As for where you quoted me on the fact that J&J is not as good as mRNA, I am aware of that, but I was giving another option to a poster who is against/afraid of the mRNA options.  Just trying to get more people on board with getting vaccinated so this can be over already.

I agree with you for sure. The more people vaccinated the faster our country will reach herd immunity, safely.

[hallux]

55 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

What I have heard from the "experts" is that natural immunity lasts about 3 months. After that the antibodies wane considerably. People who have had Covid have been told to get vaccinated after 3 months of having Covid. Have you heard that?

I had it, my parents (in their 70's) had it.  There was a chance my dad wasn't going to be allowed to get the vaccine as his appointment was a month after he had COVID.  He made sure the intake person at the vaccine site was aware that he had tested positive a month prior.  They took it under advisement, but still provided the vaccine.

 

There is SOME reporting that people that had been sick with the virus and recovered within a certain time frame before the vaccine may have stronger side effects from the vaccine.  It kicked his butt for a day but he's doing fine now.

 

Yes, people that have had COVID and recovered have natural protection but it's a short duration, something like 3-5 months but I think it varies person to person.

[Stick93]

1 hour ago, roger001 said:

And therein lies the problem.  If...I become infected and happen to pass the virus to one of the folks in the two younger age groups, then I probably will not be given them an issue more than a mild flu experience, especially for the younger group.  But...if one of that group becomes infected, although it is a minor issue to them, if they pass it to me there is a very good chance for hospitalization for me or even dying.   So, the need for the younger groups to wear a mask and stand back is not for their good health.  It is for mine.  Unfortunately, a number of those in the younger age groups are refusing to mask up and in doing so are being extremely irresponsible towards us older folks.  I have a nephew that doesn't mask and won't do so even if a store says it is required.  He told me, "I am not going to live in fear and change or inconvenience my life even if it kills me.....or even it it kills others."  I'm really not liking my nephew at the moment and think he is a totally self centered and selfish jerk.  However, he is certainly not alone in that behavior.  

You definitely have an argument -

Now lets talk about the debt we are putting out children  and young people in to pay for all this and the fact we did not leaving anything for a rainy day before this all started. Think of all the depression, addiction and suicide the wise older generations are passing forward in the way of debt and inopportunity for young people . Maybe more will and have died from this and lack of opportunity than have died of covid. I think the young people are paying the older generation forward for their very dangerous position they have left this country in. We are just about bankrupt and would be if we didn't have the money printers in Washington

I guess everyone can blame something on someone. 

[Stick93]

1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

Millions of guinea pigs (oh I mean humans) world wide have been jabbed with the mRNA vaccines and so far, so good. There have not been any reports, so far that I can find, that have directly linked these vaccines to deaths. Every death occurring within a certain time frame of a person getting the vaccine is investigated, including medical records of the deceased. As I said, so far not one death has been reported as a direct result of the person receiving the mRNA vaccine. Yes, there have been deaths, but not linked to the vaccines.

 

I do agree with you that the length of immunity has not been determined as yet with the mRNA vaccines. That is a waiting game for all of us who have been vaccinated with mRNA vaccines. Let's just hope our memory T Cells will kick into high gear and attack the virus if we should ever come in contact with the Covid virus. From what I have read about our immune response, those T Cells have been taught to identify the Covid virus and should spring into action should they be needed. All thanks to the mRNA vaccines.

 

 

If you believe nobody has been hurt by the vaccine and nothing can be linked to the vaccine - you may not be looking in the right place. OR... maybe you also believe that taking covid positive people and placing them in nursing homes last year in March didn't cause one extra death - it just was bad luck. There is a very unhappy man in the NY state capital who believes that and will take it to his grave! 

[milolii]

I saw this today from the IATA.  Interesting.  I don’t claim to know much about it, so can’t express an opinion, just sharing the information.  Hope the link works.

 

In short, it is an application that allows travelers to store vaccines/tests information(a travel pass) to present when required to do so.  
 

https://simpleflying.com/iata-travel-pass-ready-in-weeks/

[Tippyton]

9 hours ago, coffeebean said:

What I have heard from the "experts" is that natural immunity lasts about 3 months. After that the antibodies wane considerably. People who have had Covid have been told to get vaccinated after 3 months of having Covid. Have you heard that?

Yah I've heard that in line for the grape Flavor-Aid.  Have you heard that people who had SARS1 are still immune 18 years later?   Have you heard that people who had SARS1 are immune from SARS2?   Have you heard the lasting immunity is 9 months which is all we have the data from.  Zero science says that, after having had Covid, that I need a vaccine.  Anything that says that is opinion and couched with a "we don't know but".  All BS.  With an R value of greater than 1 the MATH says cases will increase.  If we really could get COVID again the cases would ultimately level off at some high number.  I'm from Missouri - SHOW ME!

[Tippyton]

8 hours ago, hallux said:

I had it, my parents (in their 70's) had it.  There was a chance my dad wasn't going to be allowed to get the vaccine as his appointment was a month after he had COVID.  He made sure the intake person at the vaccine site was aware that he had tested positive a month prior.  They took it under advisement, but still provided the vaccine.

 

There is SOME reporting that people that had been sick with the virus and recovered within a certain time frame before the vaccine may have stronger side effects from the vaccine.  It kicked his butt for a day but he's doing fine now.

 

Yes, people that have had COVID and recovered have natural protection but it's a short duration, something like 3-5 months but I think it varies person to person.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-last-after-covid-19-what-we-know

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2021/01/13/long-term-protection-covid-vaccines-immunity-duration-unknown-but-experts-hopeful.html

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210107/covid-19-immunity-could-last-longer-than-8-months

 

Officially we don't know because we have less than a year of data to work with.  Vaccines for profit are being forced on us.  Think about that.  Why isn't J&J in the mix yet?  Why isn't A-Z in the mix yet?  Pfizer and Moderna were approved in less than a week.  Not a tin foil hat guy, but it begs the question. 

 

But back to your original point - we have been lied to and you all are eating it up.

 

[zerooveride]

I will say this, I have known a couple of people who have gotten COVID twice. Confirmed tests, months apart

[winterbliss]

7 hours ago, Tippyton said:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-last-after-covid-19-what-we-know

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2021/01/13/long-term-protection-covid-vaccines-immunity-duration-unknown-but-experts-hopeful.html

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210107/covid-19-immunity-could-last-longer-than-8-months

 

Officially we don't know because we have less than a year of data to work with.  Vaccines for profit are being forced on us.  Think about that.  Why isn't J&J in the mix yet?  Why isn't A-Z in the mix yet?  Pfizer and Moderna were approved in less than a week.  Not a tin foil hat guy, but it begs the question. 

 

But back to your original point - we have been lied to and you all are eating it up.

 

If you study the psychology of compliance, control and brainwashing and look at where we've arrived at as a society.... just seeing people follow floor arrows in any store and hear some admonishing someone for going the wrong way...folks have snitched on their neighbours... families convinced that it's for the good of all to allow their loved one to die alone without holding their hand...I could go on and on...and yes, the point I'm making does have to do with the topic of mandatory vaccinations...why are we not seeing healthy debates on main stream news with those that have different views? Your "vaccines for profit" comment is an understatement.

I have to say, for me personally, that the fact that so many decent people were able to be convinced that a family member could not be with their loved one at the bedside holding their hand as they were very ill or dying or, for that matter, any vulnerable person in a care facility..that this was and is unacceptable. I could understand it for a brief period while a plan was put together for a family designate. Having worked as a nurse for decades, I knew from then onward that if you can convince someone of that, you can convince someone of anything.

[macandlucy]

18 hours ago, coffeebean said:

I don't understand the hesitancy for mRNA vaccines. These vaccines have been developed over a period of at least 10 years. The mRNA technology is also being used for cancer treatment. It is not new so why the hesitancy?

I think it's new for vaccines though. There's a growing anti-vaxxer movement that seems to be gaining ground, and the vaccine itself has been heavily politicized. In my lifetime, vaccines have gone from a clear, public health measure only to a weird hybrid of public health and highly profitable commercial enterprise (and new for 2020, politics).  We have always relied on our public health experts for their expertise and scientific assessments and that's it, free of political or financial motives. But we did not get that this time. 

 

When I hear or read someone saying, "It''s only 95% effective" I just want to cry. Fear is clouding people's ability to think clearly, and if we don't start thinking clearly pretty soon, I don't know what is going to happen to us.  

 

Personally, I think it's smart to do some research before taking a vaccine. Look at the VAERS reports, talk to a trusted health professional, and know the risks, but then apply some reason to the whole thing.  But reasoned thinking, not obsessive focus on outliers, not irrational fear. Know that nothing in life is 100%, but also understand that the odds are in your favor. 

 

Overall, this pandemic has shown me that once fear sets in, even smart people lose their ability to make reasoned, rational decisions.  That's scarier to me than any virus, because I can control my own behavior and get myself a good level of protection through the things I do against a virus. There's little I can do about the irrational fear, and believe me, I have tried.

 

[roger001]

17 hours ago, Stick93 said:

You definitely have an argument -

Now lets talk about the debt we are putting out children  and young people in to pay for all this and the fact we did not leaving anything for a rainy day before this all started. Think of all the depression, addiction and suicide the wise older generations are passing forward in the way of debt and inopportunity for young people . Maybe more will and have died from this and lack of opportunity than have died of covid. I think the young people are paying the older generation forward for their very dangerous position they have left this country in. We are just about bankrupt and would be if we didn't have the money printers in Washington

I guess everyone can blame something on someone. 

We, assuming most of us are of the older age group, did at one time not only contribute to the functions of government including massive spending and the statement, "look at the mess we are leaving our children (and Keith Richards)", but we are not anywhere near the majority of the guilty culprits now.   It is now actually our children and even grandchildren who are creating further governmental budget mess, which they will be leaving their children and grandchildren.  We, age 65 and older, are a very small part of our collective US now and don't have much influence (votes) in the affairs of state any longer.  Depending on which reference you use, age 65 and older are only 13% of the US population now.  18 to 44 are 36%, 45 - 64 are 26%, and the not yet voters, under age 18,  are about 20%.  So yea, one time we did our fair share.  But the younger generation are in the driver's seat now and what happens in government is very much a result of their actions.   We still get to contribute, but our contributions of influence are now small.  This aging thing and loosing our influence kinda sneaks up on you.  Guess we will just have to use our wisdom to counsel these younger generations as to what they are doing to themselves.   My thought for today....at least one of them.  

[roger001]

10 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

I think it's new for vaccines though. There's a growing anti-vaxxer movement that seems to be gaining ground, and the vaccine itself has been heavily politicized. In my lifetime, vaccines have gone from a clear, public health measure only to a weird hybrid of public health and highly profitable commercial enterprise (and new for 2020, politics).  We have always relied on our public health experts for their expertise and scientific assessments and that's it, free of political or financial motives. But we did not get that this time. 

 

When I hear or read someone saying, "It''s only 95% effective" I just want to cry. Fear is clouding people's ability to think clearly, and if we don't start thinking clearly pretty soon, I don't know what is going to happen to us.  

 

Personally, I think it's smart to do some research before taking a vaccine. Look at the VAERS reports, talk to a trusted health professional, and know the risks, but then apply some reason to the whole thing.  But reasoned thinking, not obsessive focus on outliers, not irrational fear. Know that nothing in life is 100%, but also understand that the odds are in your favor. 

 

Overall, this pandemic has shown me that once fear sets in, even smart people lose their ability to make reasoned, rational decisions.  That's scarier to me than any virus, because I can control my own behavior and get myself a good level of protection through the things I do against a virus. There's little I can do about the irrational fear, and believe me, I have tried.

 

REASONED THINKING....key words there.  And sooo many unfortunately prefer emotional thinking in all of their decision making.....frequently enjoying their emotions derived from agenda driven influences so often found on FB.  

[Daytonasailor]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:15 AM, DCGuy64 said:

This is something I strongly agree with, especially the penultimate paragraph. To be sure, Covid-19 has been devastating, but the response has been way overblown, in many cases. And I think history will show that there was a lot of overreaction (which is understandable given how quickly it spread and how many people died initially). The thing is, if we don't learn from our mistakes, we'll just repeat them. It's not that the wise don't make mistakes, but they do learn from them. Covid-19 is somewhat more deadly than the seasonal flu. A LOT more deadly. But deadly enough to warrant the virtual shutdown of the entire world for nearly a year? No. We all know of isolated instances of the common cold, norovirus, and seasonal influenza causing outbreaks onboard cruise ships. But they never caused a shutdown of nearly the entire industry for this long. Again, I think history will show that the response was not commensurate with the risk. I hope we learn from this and don't simply repeat the mistakes we made. The bright side is this: all of our speculation on Cruise Critic isn't going to be the deciding factor when it comes to what the cruise lines do. We can all armchair quarterback for as long as we like, but the big shots are going to make the call.

 

 

Jeeze, I've got two college degrees, but I still had to look up the word, "penultimate".

[ColeThornton]

4 minutes ago, Daytonasailor said:

 

 

Jeeze, I've got two college degrees, but I still had to look up the word, "penultimate".

 

 

Should have picked a better Community College.  😉

[Daytonasailor]

Just now, ColeThornton said:

 

 

Should have picked a better Community College.  😉

Cole, as we used to say in the Army, assumptions are the mother of all F@#$%ups.

[ColeThornton]

5 minutes ago, Daytonasailor said:

Cole, as we used to say in the Army, assumptions are the mother of all F@#$%ups.

 

 

Funny.   Us Navy guys used that same saying.  It was usually delivered by a rather grumpy Master Chief.  🙂

[electro]

4 hours ago, winterbliss said:

If you study the psychology of compliance, control and brainwashing and look at where we've arrived at as a society.... just seeing people follow floor arrows in any store and hear some admonishing someone for going the wrong way...folks have snitched on their neighbours... families convinced that it's for the good of all to allow their loved one to die alone without holding their hand...I could go on and on...and yes, the point I'm making does have to do with the topic of mandatory vaccinations...why are we not seeing healthy debates on main stream news with those that have different views? Your "vaccines for profit" comment is an understatement.

I have to say, for me personally, that the fact that so many decent people were able to be convinced that a family member could not be with their loved one at the bedside holding their hand as they were very ill or dying or, for that matter, any vulnerable person in a care facility..that this was and is unacceptable. I could understand it for a brief period while a plan was put together for a family designate. Having worked as a nurse for decades, I knew from then onward that if you can convince someone of that, you can convince someone of anything.

So why is wearing masks and following arrows on the floor being "brainwashed" but wearing seatbelt and following arrows on one way streets not?

When you live in society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society. Being part of the solution instead of being part of the problem does not mean you are brainwashed, it means you are a responsible citizen. Just my opinion.

[zerooveride]

It appears that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine will receive emergency use authorization this Friday. It just passed the first step and it is expected to be approved on Friday.

 

From CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/24/health/johnson-vaccine-fda-analysis/index.html):

     The efficacy of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine against moderate to severe/critical Covid-19 across all geographic areas was 66.9% at least 14 days after the single dose vaccination and 66.1% at least 28 days after vaccination, a new analysis meant to brief the FDA's Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee said.

"There were no specific safety concerns identified in subgroup analyses by age, race, ethnicity, medical comorbidities, or prior SARS-CoV-2 infection," the analysis said.

[graphicguy]

On 2/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Stick93 said:

You do realize the vaccine is only 95% effective if we take what they are saying so the only guarantee to keep EVERYONE healthy is to not cruise...and hence this is where we are. 

Yes....95% effectiveness is outstanding (actually, I've heard the number is 97%).  That's way, way better than no vaccine, at all.  95% effectiveness is even better than those who contract some sort of digestive issues and bring them on board.

 

Bottom line, regardless of how you feel about any medical procedure, no one is forcing you to take the vaccine.  You want it? Get it!  You don't?  Lots of things you can do without it (but may become a Pariah in the process if you're going out in public), but cruising ain't one of them.

Edited February 24, 2021 by graphicguy

[teacherman]

I am 73 years old.  When I was in elementary school, polio was a big deal disease.  People SAW what it was doing, especially to children.  And then they invented the polio vaccine.  And one day, we all lined up in the school hall and were vaccinated against polio.  I do not remember anyone not getting vaccinated.  I do not remember anyone saying the vaccine would be worse than the disease.

 

Of course, this was before Watergate and Viet Nam and social media and election conspiracies and many other things that have made us question everything we are told.  I never got polio and I do not want to get Covid.  So if MY common sense tells me that social distancing and mask wearing and getting a vaccine might help prevent it, then I am getting it.  And IF my not getting Covid somehow helps prevent YOU from getting it, then just say "thank you" for helping.

[macandlucy]

26 minutes ago, electro said:

So why is wearing masks and following arrows on the floor being "brainwashed" but wearing seatbelt and following arrows on one way streets not?

When you live in society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society. Being part of the solution instead of being part of the problem does not mean you are brainwashed, it means you are a responsible citizen. Just my opinion.

I agree with you. It’s sensible and responsible to follow public health advice. But that advice also needs to be good. Telling people that they still can’t meet up with others, even if everyone is vaccinated? (I just heard about that one).

Oth, I see people making fun of the two masks advice. That is actually the best advice I have heard about masks so far. A surgical mask under a high filtering cloth mask will provide pretty good protection against aerosols. Much smarter to do that that walk around with a crummy mask and be under the false impression that you are protected.