I've Had Enough !!!

[twangster]

18 minutes ago, Baron Barracuda said:

 

Post you reacted to merely stated that Caribbean nations might want to first get their citizens vaccinated before allowing shiploads of of potentially infectious tourists to descend upon them.  They don't need to do their own research or consult CDC.

 

Don't understand how you keep saying politics influence CDC.  Their no-sail orders went directly against prior administration's push to ignore the virus and keep economy open.  That prior administration didn't overrule CDC and allow cruising to re-start shows they acknowledged the legitimacy of CDC's concerns.  Might also consider how health authorities other than CDC have shut down cruising in England, Canada and most of the rest of the world.

 

Caribbean nations do have their own experts helping them make decisions but as I stated that is not a deep bench.  As long as the CDC has a negative position on the pandemic trajectory other nations will consider that in their decision making process.   If the CDC relaxes their death grip on the cruise industry Caribbean nations will take notice and consider that as they make ongoing decisions.

 

The CDC claims they were afraid to speak or couldn't speak.  An entire organization of supposed scientists afraid to talk or take action.  Instead they deferred to their politically appointed leader.   The leader of the organization is a political appointee who was very quickly replaced by a new administration further proving it is a politically driven organization.  If their leadership was a respected doctor or scientist there would have been a transition if they were replaced in the first place.  Instead they were replaced immediately when the new administration took office.  

 

The CDC is not an independent organization that is politically agnostic.  Regardless what side you voted for you can't deny the CDC is driven and motivated by politics.   That occured in the past and it is occuring now.

[smokeybandit]

1 minute ago, Iamcruzin said:

Yes back before they really didn't know anything about the disease. At one time the warning label on a pack of cigarettes said smoking may cause cancer. Things change as studies become more conclusive.

What study had been done around April 1 last year that suddenly nullified the decades of prior studies that said mask didn't work?

 

There's been zero real-world evidence anywhere that masks work. If they did, we'd see stark differences in covid trends between geographically similar counties/states/countries that have strict mask mandates and compliance compared to ones that don't.  When in fact the trends are near identical.

[yogimax]

21 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Is this the same Dr. Fauci who stated around this time last year that masks are useless?

I'm tired of this comment in all its forms.  February of last year was completely different.  Indeed, Fauci was not made aware of facts known only to the very pinnacle of American leadership.  It was also made at a time when protective gear, including masks, were in short supply thanks to a failure by that same leadership. 

 

Comments such as this will only prolong the crisis and delay a safe return to cruising.

Edited February 21, 2021 by yogimax

[Mapleleafforever]

5 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

Yes back before they really didn't know anything about the disease. At one time the warning label on a pack of cigarettes said smoking may cause cancer. Things change as studies become more conclusive.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Everything changes with new info. 

[smokeybandit]

1 minute ago, Mapleleafforever said:

That's the point I'm trying to make. Everything changes with new info. 

But what new info was there that overnight masks went from "masks are bad" to "masks save lives"

[Mapleleafforever]

2 minutes ago, yogimax said:

I'm tired of this comment in all its forms.  February of last year was completely different.  Indeed, Fauci was not made aware of facts known only to the very pinnacle of American leadership.  It was also made at a time when protective gear, including masks was in short supply thanks to a failure by that same leadership. 

 

Comments such as this will only prolong the crisis and delay a safe return to cruising.

My point is that now Fauci is saying masks until end of 2022, last year he said masks are useless, what's he gonna say next based on the newest information?? For all we know it's no masks after May.  

[Iamcruzin]

22 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

What study had been done around April 1 last year that suddenly nullified the decades of prior studies that said mask didn't work?

 

There's been zero real-world evidence anywhere that masks work. If they did, we'd see stark differences in covid trends between geographically similar counties/states/countries that have strict mask mandates and compliance compared to ones that don't.  When in fact the trends are near identical.

Medical professionals have been wearing masks for years and it's not because they look pretty. The fact that he said that they are useless was more disturbing. Sometimes common sense and natural instinct have more value than any studies or the statistical charts that people keep posting.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Iamcruzin

[Iamcruzin]

4 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

My point is that now Fauci is saying masks until end of 2022, last year he said masks are useless, what's he gonna say next based on the newest information?? For all we know it's no masks after May.  

At the rate the vaccine seems to be rolling out 2022 sounds about right at this point. If production increases then things can change.  

[firefly333]

11 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

How many studies does it take to determine that some barrier might be more beneficial than no barrier?

I dont think that was his point. I think he distrusts political doctors who get their ego strokes on tv.

 

Not that he is against masks. Or thinks they dont help. I wear mine, but dont trust dr faucci motives. Or cdc or the who. Political bodies. Paid off by salaries to the highest bidder. 

 

 

[Ocean Boy]

1 minute ago, firefly333 said:

I dont think that was his point. I think he distrusts political doctors who get their ego strokes on tv.

 

Not that he is against masks. Or thinks they dont help. I wear mine, but dont trust dr faucci motives. Or cdc or the who. Political bodies. Paid off by salaries to the highest bidder. 

 

 

I don't think you got my point. I don't trust political showboating doctors either.

[firefly333]

4 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

At the rate the vaccine seems to be rolling out 2022 sounds about right at this point. If production increases then things can change.  

Actually pfeizer did say they can produce faster and will deliver sooner tha  before. No guarantee of course, but one did say faster and sooner.

[firefly333]

1 minute ago, Ocean Boy said:

I don't think you got my point. I don't trust political showboating doctors either.

Ok, sarcasm hard to read sometimes. Gotcha

 

And I dont necessarily trust Biden's july date, but at least it's a place to start. I expect lots of excuses.

[Iamcruzin]

1 minute ago, firefly333 said:

Actually pfeizer did say they can produce faster and will deliver sooner tha  before. No guarantee of course, but one did say faster and sooner.

I heard that as well. 

[Ocean Boy]

16 minutes ago, yogimax said:

I'm tired of this comment in all its forms.  February of last year was completely different.  Indeed, Fauci was not made aware of facts known only to the very pinnacle of American leadership.  It was also made at a time when protective gear, including masks, were in short supply thanks to a failure by that same leadership. 

 

Comments such as this will only prolong the crisis and delay a safe return to cruising.

How do you know what Fauci knew or when he knew it? 

 

 

[chengkp75]

First off, I believe the WSJ article mentioned here is by a Dr. Markey?  He is not a virologist or epidemiologist, he is an oncologist and abdominal surgeon.

 

Second, everyone keeps harping on crew vaccinations.  Would someone please tell me what mechanism is going to be in place to ensure that crew get vaccinated, and in sufficient numbers to restart cruising?  I'm at a loss to know who will coordinate this across the many jurisdictions that are involved with getting crew from their home countries to the ship with a vaccine.

[LXA350]

There are so many factors involved for this new normal / the life "with" / after COVID that it will take several more months to figure things out and also get to common rules and regulations involving travel of the different countries. In addition, for every day that passes again new things are learned about COVID, at least when it comes to the vaccinations (mainly Pfizer / Moderna for now) these are very promising so far.

 

Hence, if we can see the roll out of trial cruises both in North America and also Europe for RCL group during Q3 this would be quite a great achivment as of them step by step going back into the right direction. However before 2022 / 2023 we will likely not get back all the ships in operation and itinararies we wish to take. Not to mention, as part of cost cutting / lack of demand more ships might leave the fleet.

[cruisinfanatic]

33 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

But what new info was there that overnight masks went from "masks are bad" to "masks save lives"

Show us all where he said "masks are bad" and you win a prize

[cured]

51 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

But what new info was there that overnight masks went from "masks are bad" to "masks save lives"

Surgical masks and covid:

4/2020 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083?te=1&nl=running&emc=edit_ru_20200822

We also demonstrated the efficacy of surgical masks to reduce coronavirus detection and viral copies in large respiratory droplets and in aerosols (Table 1b). This has important implications for control of COVID-19, suggesting that surgical face masks could be used by ill people to reduce onward transmission.

 

5/28/2020 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7253999/

The 21 studies, involving 8,686 participants, showed that masks were generally effective in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses. 

 

7/2020 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1477893920302301

Results

A total of 21 studies met our inclusion criteria. Meta-analyses suggest that mask use provided a significant protective effect (OR = 0.35 and 95% CI = 0.24–0.51). Use of masks by healthcare workers (HCWs) and non-healthcare workers (Non-HCWs) can reduce the risk of respiratory virus infection by 80% (OR = 0.20, 95% CI = 0.11–0.37) and 47% (OR = 0.53, 95% CI = 0.36–0.79). The protective effect of wearing masks in Asia (OR = 0.31) appeared to be higher than that of Western countries (OR = 0.45). Masks had a protective effect against influenza viruses (OR = 0.55), SARS (OR = 0.26), and SARS-CoV-2 (OR = 0.04). In the subgroups based on different study designs, protective effects of wearing mask were significant in cluster randomized trials and observational studies.

 

Study shows that some cloth mask designs can be as effective as surgical masks:

9/2020 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083?te=1&nl=running&emc=edit_ru_20200822

In proof-of-principle studies, we compared a variety of commonly available mask types and observed that some mask types approach the performance of standard surgical masks, while some mask alternatives, such as neck gaiters or bandanas, offer very little protection. 

 

There are many, many, many more studies that show masks can be effective against covid. Just look in any of the science journals and you will find them.

Edited February 21, 2021 by cured

[poffles]

46 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

Would that be one, two, or will he want us up to three masks by then?

Wow .. well clearly I have touched on a sore spot with some people.  So maskless it is but not for me.

 

Happy cruising all, I am out.

[cruiselvr04]

I don’t think this virus is a hoax and neither do the 500,000 who have died from it.  However your chance of surviving this is over 99%.  I don’t want it, haven’t had it and hope not too.  I wear a mask, wash my hands and use hand sanitizer and wipes everywhere I go.  We are very careful, don’t eat out or go to church or shopping.  We have seen our kids and grandkids several times but only after they have quarantined themselves for 2 weeks which they are willing to do. We are fortunate in that regard.

 

I do want covid to go away and live a normal life again.  I want to start traveling.  I’m giving this until the end of 2021.  If things aren’t improved by then I will be ready to throw in the towel and rejoin society no matter if we get sick or not.  That’s my line in the sand. Enough is enough.

 

I understand we may be forced to get the vaccine at some point to get on a plane or travel again.  I just want to give it more time.  I’m certainly not anti vaccine.  I don’t think it’s wrong to get it. The choice I hope will always be left to the individual. 

[cruisinfanatic]

41 minutes ago, cruiselvr04 said:

I don’t think this virus is a hoax and neither do the 500,000 who have died from it.  However your chance of surviving this is over 99%.  I don’t want it, haven’t had it and hope not too.  I wear a mask, wash my hands and use hand sanitizer and wipes everywhere I go.  We are very careful, don’t eat out or go to church or shopping.  We have seen our kids and grandkids several times but only after they have quarantined themselves for 2 weeks which they are willing to do. We are fortunate in that regard.

 

I do want covid to go away and live a normal life again.  I want to start traveling.  I’m giving this until the end of 2021.  If things aren’t improved by then I will be ready to throw in the towel and rejoin society no matter if we get sick or not.  That’s my line in the sand. Enough is enough.

 

I understand we may be forced to get the vaccine at some point to get on a plane or travel again.  I just want to give it more time.  I’m certainly not anti vaccine.  I don’t think it’s wrong to get it. The choice I hope will always be left to the individual. 

If there is anything wrong with you and or are 65 up, it is a lot worse than that

Pretty much zero reason to put off the vaccine IMO. If you want covid to go away, getting the vaccine is contributing to that

Edited February 21, 2021 by cruisinfanatic

[mjkacmom]

13 hours ago, compman9 said:

Fewer than 500 fit and healthy working age people that were not obese have died of this virus in the UK (population 70+million)

 

There is and never has been any case for locking up anyone other than vulnerable groups, but politicians love nothing more than accumulating vast debts they can blame on something/one else

 

What we are seeing is politics getting in the way of what is best for nations

That doesn’t mean much here with a 42% obesity rate.

[flamingos]

2 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

But what new info was there that overnight masks went from "masks are bad" to "masks save lives"

 

No one said masks were bad, what they said was that surgical masks are in short supply and front-line health care people should have priority.  Once hand-made cloth masks came out, they said that those were what was needed for protection for regular people.

[Missusdubbya]

This thread is doomed

[Mapleleafforever]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

First off, I believe the WSJ article mentioned here is by a Dr. Markey?  He is not a virologist or epidemiologist, he is an oncologist and abdominal surgeon.

 

Second, everyone keeps harping on crew vaccinations.  Would someone please tell me what mechanism is going to be in place to ensure that crew get vaccinated, and in sufficient numbers to restart cruising?  I'm at a loss to know who will coordinate this across the many jurisdictions that are involved with getting crew from their home countries to the ship with a vaccine.

I think the majority of people here are pro vaccination for everyone, not just one group of people. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Mapleleafforever