The Debbie Downers have been right all along

[VMax1700]

People get side effects from the flu vaccine.  Flu vaccine is a lot less than 85% efficacy and they have to try to guess next year's strain.  We still roll up our sleeves and are happy to receive it.  Same with the anti----Covid shots.

Maybe the side effects are more serious in some covid shots, but science is working on them.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-janssen-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood

[Mary229]

3 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Rats. I hate it when Debbie Dreadful (DD) is right!

 

Here's the latest from Texas...

 

“We do not at present know the full significance of this variant, but it has a combination of mutations similar to other internationally notifiable variants of concern,” said Texas A&M Chief Virologist Ben Neuman. “This variant combines genetic markers separately associated with rapid spread, severe disease and high resistance to neutralizing antibodies.”

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/22/new-covid-variant-detected-at-texas-am-lab-shows-signs-of-antibody-resistance-and-more-severe-illness-in-young-people.html

 

I don't suppose that TX has a contact tracing, surveillance and surge testing program? Just to see how far this variant has spread?

 

This is what keeps virologists awake at night.

 

“Nevertheless, it highlights the importance of examining the combined effect of multiple mutations as opposed to studying only individual ones, as it is unlikely that any single mutation would lead to complete escape from natural or vaccine-derived immunity.”

 

https://theconversation.com/concerning-coronavirus-mutation-now-found-in-uk-variant-heres-what-you-need-to-know-153248

 

Variant A meets Variant B. Offspring C has the most effective features of the parents. Avoid non-essential travel!

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/two-variants-merge-to-form-first-recorded-recombinant-virus-1.5312679

 

That's why it is highly dangerous to mix vaccinated and unvaccinated people in a social setting; like on a cruise. Sooner or later, the masks come off. Bang!

 

The unvaccinated people can infect the vax pax, The vax pax can infect each other. The vax pax can then infect the unvaccinated on shore where there is another variant. It goes on and on...

 

Yet in Texas, open for a while now, the hospitalization rates continue to go down, down, down.   So I guess the vaccine is doing it’s job. 

[nocl]

On 4/20/2021 at 6:19 AM, jimmy2x said:

567,000 Americans have died. 95% were over the age of 50.  HAL cruisers tend to be on the “mature “ side.  As of Jan 18th, 196 people had died after getting vaccinated. Of these 129 were in nursing homes. These are facts that are easily verified. 
 

I’m old enough to remember polio rightfully scaring the hell out of Americans. Fortunately it was at a time when Americans trusted science and when Jonas Salk developed a vaccine, we all got it. We live now in an age of “information overload “ where any damn fool can develop a following. It is quite true that even the acknowledged experts don’t always get things right at first. But I will continue to follow their recommendations over some self appointed guru posting from his basement. 

To put in perspective at the time the polio vaccine was released there were around 15,000 cases of paralysis due to polio each year in the US. People celebrated it release.

 

Today with over 500,000 dead in a year people find excuse after excuse to avoid it.

[cruisemom42]

8 minutes ago, nocl said:

To put in perspective at the time the polio vaccine was released there were around 15,000 cases of paralysis due to polio each year in the US. People celebrated it release.

 

Today with over 500,000 dead in a year people find excuse after excuse to avoid it.

 

I have often wondered whether, if COVID caused children to die instead of seniors, we'd be in a different and far more united place right now? 

[rodndonna]

11 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have often wondered whether, if COVID caused children to die instead of seniors, we'd be in a different and far more united place right now? 

 

Sadly I think so.

[bennybear]

Currently in Canada, it is younger people in hospital.  A little toddler died in BC this week.  And the double variant in India is out of control.  I just had started to feel more hopeful.  I really hope we can do what it takes to control this virus.  

[idiebabe]

6 hours ago, VMax1700 said:

People get side effects from the flu vaccine.  Flu vaccine is a lot less than 85% efficacy and they have to try to guess next year's strain.  We still roll up our sleeves and are happy to receive it.  Same with the anti----Covid shots.

Maybe the side effects are more serious in some covid shots, but science is working on them.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-janssen-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood

Agree all Vaccines can have side effects.  We rolled up our sleeves and were excited to do it because of our age (late 60's) and comorbidities.   I'm hearing more and more stories from people I know or who know someone that are four weeks and longer past their 2nd Dose who are still experiencing side effects or say they just don't feel "quite right".  This is concerning!

 

Some of the Side Effects are Vertigo, Achy Legs, Fatigue, Body Rashes, etc. and this is not just J&J but also Pfizer and Moderna.  I had a rash on my stomach 24 hours after my 2nd Dose of Moderna and it lasted a couple of days.  I looked it up on Dr. Google and there was nothing at the time to say a Rash was related to the Vaccine except for a rash at the Injection Site.  A Client of my Sister's has now been back and forth between his Primary Care Physician and a Dermatologist for rashes that keep popping up on his body since his 2nd Dose of Pfizer two months ago.  My BIL is now experiencing Vertigo which started a week after his 2nd Dose of Moderna.  This is a sampling of what I'm hearing from Family, some Friends and also some of my Customers.  

 

What are the Long Term Effects?  I don't really think that is known at this time and won't be for quite sometime. 

[tosteve1]

[tosteve1]

We’ll see but Neanderthals doing OK right now.

[tosteve1]

[tosteve1]

Hmmm...food for thought

[Mary229]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have often wondered whether, if COVID caused children to die instead of seniors, we'd be in a different and far more united place right now? 

We would because children need the protection of society.   Older people can make choices and decisions.  In a perfect world the directives would have advised hygiene and preventative methods and allowed people to carry on without lockdowns.  The only legislative need would have been to prevent those vulnerable from being fired. 

[kazu]

5 minutes ago, tosteve1 said:

Hmmm...food for thought

 

Nope vaccine for thought.  Your country has far more vaccinated than we do.  And, comparing Canada to Texas is not the same.  Try comparing it to New Brunswick.  Even though we are struggling (for us), you will get a completely different picture.

 

Texas is a state, Canada is a country.  Either compare the total U.S. to Canada or compare a state to a province.  Otherwise it’s as immaterial as if I compare to NB to Canada or the U.S.

[jimmy2x]

4 hours ago, nocl said:

To put in perspective at the time the polio vaccine was released there were around 15,000 cases of paralysis due to polio each year in the US. People celebrated it release.

 

Today with over 500,000 dead in a year people find excuse after excuse to avoid it.

Your point is well taken. But it was a simpler time. There were only three major TV networks and right or wrong  most folks pretty much believed what they saw on the news. Nowadays many go to “news” sites that preach the political gospel that aligns their preconceived notions. Not quite the same thing. 

[cruisemom42]

11 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

We would because children need the protection of society.   Older people can make choices and decisions.  In a perfect world the directives would have advised hygiene and preventative methods and allowed people to carry on without lockdowns.  The only legislative need would have been to prevent those vulnerable from being fired. 

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding your POV correctly, but if I am then I disagree with you on a philosophical level. I feel everyone deserves the protection of society with regard to basic expectations of being able to live safely. Not all older people are in a position to make choices for themselves. What about those in long-term care with no family?  With dementia or mental illness? 

 

 

 

 

[Mary229]

15 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding your POV correctly, but if I am then I disagree with you on a philosophical level. I feel everyone deserves the protection of society with regard to basic expectations of being able to live safely. Not all older people are in a position to make choices for themselves. What about those in long-term care with no family?  With dementia or mental illness? 

 

 

 

 

Well yes on the disabled.  Children historically have a guardianship relationship with the state.   That is why we have CPS. From first hand family experience I can tell you so do those who are mentally disabled.    The guardianship is needed should the adult caretaker, parent or otherwise, endanger the safety of the child.  
 

adults are allowed to endanger their lives in most situations.   The exclusions to that is when they want to enjoy a special privilege like driving on public roads.  On a private road the law has no say in you wearing a seatbelt. 
 

Given that I think we should always avoid the narrative that we should have special protections due to age.  That could actually be harmful to the older population by indicating that age is a disability 

 

but back to what I said.   I prefaced my distaste for lockdowns by saying in a perfect world meaning if we could expect people to follow hygiene protocols we could all go to work.  This is the Japanese model. 

[KirkNC]

3 hours ago, idiebabe said:

Agree all Vaccines can have side effects.  We rolled up our sleeves and were excited to do it because of our age (late 60's) and comorbidities.   I'm hearing more and more stories from people I know or who know someone that are four weeks and longer past their 2nd Dose who are still experiencing side effects or say they just don't feel "quite right".  This is concerning!

 

Some of the Side Effects are Vertigo, Achy Legs, Fatigue, Body Rashes, etc. and this is not just J&J but also Pfizer and Moderna.  I had a rash on my stomach 24 hours after my 2nd Dose of Moderna and it lasted a couple of days.  I looked it up on Dr. Google and there was nothing at the time to say a Rash was related to the Vaccine except for a rash at the Injection Site.  A Client of my Sister's has now been back and forth between his Primary Care Physician and a Dermatologist for rashes that keep popping up on his body since his 2nd Dose of Pfizer two months ago.  My BIL is now experiencing Vertigo which started a week after his 2nd Dose of Moderna.  This is a sampling of what I'm hearing from Family, some Friends and also some of my Customers.  

 

What are the Long Term Effects?  I don't really think that is known at this time and won't be for quite sometime. 

But we know the long term effects of getting Covid, unfortunately death for 550,000 Americans.

[rkacruiser]

12 hours ago, VMax1700 said:

We believe in the science, but there are side effects and dangers.  However the upside still outweighs the downside.

 

Is there any medical procedure or any medicine that one takes that does not have a potential side effect/danger?  I am unaware of such.

 

Agree, the upside of whatever medical procedure one endures or a medicine that one takes, the improvement of one's well being is the hopeful result.  

 

Life is a gamble.  Yes, one must do one's best in choosing whatever number/color that one put their chips on.  To choose not to make that "bet" is a choice that affects others as well as themselves with regard to Covid and the vaccine issue.  Too many in my country are failing to understand that at this time.  I am hopeful that will change.  Sooner than later.  

[rkacruiser]

12 hours ago, VMax1700 said:

We believe in the science, but there are side effects and dangers.  However the upside still outweighs the downside.

 

Is there any medical procedure or any medicine that one takes that does not have a potential side effect/danger?  I am unaware of such.

 

Agree, the upside of whatever medical procedure one endures or a medicine that one takes, the improvement of one's well being is the hopeful result.  

 

Life is a gamble.  Yes, one must do one's best in choosing whatever number/color that one put their chips on.  To choose not to make that "bet" is a choice that affects others as well as themselves with regard to Covid and the vaccine issue.  Too many in my country are failing to understand that at this time.  I am hopeful that will change.  Sooner than later.  

[idiebabe]

4 hours ago, KirkNC said:

But we know the long term effects of getting Covid, unfortunately death for 550,000 Americans.

Those who have Covid itself are reporting long-term effects and someday more data will be known regarding it.   We’ll also know at some point the long-term affects of getting the Vaccine after  more people are reporting them.  
 

Heard your State maybe lifting your Mask Mandate?  

[OzCanuck]

12 hours ago, idiebabe said:

We’ll also know at some point the long-term affects of getting the Vaccine after  more people are reporting them.  

Perhaps the only long term effect will be preventing Covid?  What a crazy thought!

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, OzCanuck said:

Perhaps the only long term effect will be preventing Covid?  What a crazy thought!

No smallpox in the world. You no longer hear of the scourge of polio. But there are people out there who do not seem to care if you could get rid of Covid.

[nocl]

On 4/23/2021 at 4:16 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

Is there any medical procedure or any medicine that one takes that does not have a potential side effect/danger?  I am unaware of such.

 

Agree, the upside of whatever medical procedure one endures or a medicine that one takes, the improvement of one's well being is the hopeful result.  

 

Life is a gamble.  Yes, one must do one's best in choosing whatever number/color that one put their chips on.  To choose not to make that "bet" is a choice that affects others as well as themselves with regard to Covid and the vaccine issue.  Too many in my country are failing to understand that at this time.  I am hopeful that will change.  Sooner than later.  

Very few.  Keep in mind that aspirin was grandfathered in when the Food and Drug Act was put in place.  Mostly likely it would not get approved if submitted as a new drug today due to side effects (gastrointestinal primarily).

 

The risk benefit hurdles are  high for drug approval and extremely high for vaccine approval.

[nocl]

20 hours ago, idiebabe said:

Those who have Covid itself are reporting long-term effects and someday more data will be known regarding it.   We’ll also know at some point the long-term affects of getting the Vaccine after  more people are reporting them.  
 

Heard your State maybe lifting your Mask Mandate?  

Considering two things, the toxicology testing that takes place in the pre-clinical phase, coupled with the fact that almost all side effects from vaccines occur within the first 30 days after administration, I expect the chance for any significant long term effects to be somewhere between slim and none.

 

Though people can continue to use that as an excuse as they continue to search for the golden egg of a problem to justify their desire to avoid vaccination.

 

The UC and Cal State systems just announced that as soon as the vaccines go from EUA to full approval they will be required for all students and faculty on campus (normal medical and religious exclusions apply)

[HappyInVan]

Sigh, DD was right after all.

 

“The researchers analysed Covid test results from more than 350,000 people in the UK between December and April. They found that 21 days after a first jab – the time it takes the immune system to mount a decent response...

 

The vaccines were more effective against symptomatic than asymptomatic infections, reducing rates by 72% and 57% respectively, compared with those seen in the unvaccinated population.

 

A second shot of the Pfizer vaccine boosted protection further, causing symptomatic infections to fall by 90% and asymptomatic infections by 70%...

 

The results build on other positive findings from the vaccine rollout, which began in December. In February Public Health Scotland revealed that a month after receiving a shot of Pfizer or Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, the risk of hospitalisation from Covid-19 fell by up to 85% and 94% respectively.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/23/one-dose-of-pfizer-or-oxford-jab-reduces-covid-infection-rate-by-65-study

 

The bottom line is very good. With just a single shot, symptomatic infection is reduced by 2/3.

 

However, the asymptomatic protection was only half after one dose, and 2/3 after two doses. That must mean that there is a significant risk of passing the disease onward. This is just not good enough for 'normal' cruising.

 

So, listen to the experts. Continue to mask and distance, particularly for the vulnerable. You don't need to live in fear. But, practise safety precautions. There's wide range of responses to the vaccine (see scatter charts)...

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210413/Measurable-antibody-response-to-mRNA-COVID-19-vaccine-in-elderly-care-home-residents.aspx