No more cruises with NCL. Mandatory Vaccines?

[macandlucy]

1 hour ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

Trolling certainly has a negative connotation but in this case, it is my opinion that the person in question is trying to inform.  But as you said, if one doesn't want the information they can always ignore the person or if they are REALLY offended by the content, bypass the thread completely.  

I agree. I don't see evidence of "trolling" either. Presenting a different opinion, different interpretation of data, disagreeing with conclusions etc. drawn is actually a normal and important part of scientific enquiry. That happens all the time, has always happened and it should continue to happen.  Without open debate and discussion and disagreement, you've got dogma, not science.  I sincerely hope that's not where we are headed as a society.

 

As for the internet, I think civil debate is healthy and productive and necessary. A well presented opposing opinion causes me to question my view and look for weaknesses in my own argument. Sometimes I change my mind about things because someone else brought a better argument.

 

Presenting a different opinion or having an "unpopular" view is not trolling. 

 

 

[ukbecky]

Unfortunately too many people confuse facts and opinions. Different opinions are seen as lies.

 

This board exists for different opinions and people too often forget this isn't a news site. Disagree if you like, and feel free to research the things people say, ignore whoever you wish to ignore.

[Stallion]

36 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I would put myself down as someone who likes to know facts and not spin, on the condition that those who provide facts do so with some context. There's a difference between a lie and an incomplete truth.

For instance, it might be true that the US had over 2 million cases of Covid-19, but if 99% of those people survived, that's kind of important information. Similar to how people continually remind us that the vaccines currently in use don't 100% protect you from getting Covid again. Yes, but if you say that without the caveat that a) it's very unlikely in the first place and b) you'd have a mild case of it, then I frankly think it's dishonest to mislead people like that without fully explaining yourself. It's not a black/white case of people using facts or not using facts. It's which facts, and what the person is trying to prove and/or convince others to believe. That's my take on it.

yeah sure if 99% survive who cares? Let's see .01% x 330,000,000 (U.S. population)= only 3,300,000 American deaths.

I always love how some want to disregard the personal sacrifice of millions of Americans to get vaccinated, socially distance, mask and protect themselves, their families and their employees over 14 months and then say "see all that stuff we did to ourselves didn't help". How do they know that? Its more likely scientifically that we would have have had multitudes of greater deaths-so maybe we could be looking at 3,300,000 American dead rather than 560,000.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Stallion

[ukbecky]

1 minute ago, Stallion said:

yeah sure if 99% survive who cares? Let's see .01% x 330,000,000 (U.S. population)= only 3,300,000 American deaths.

I always love how some want to disregard the personal sacrifice of millions of Americans to get vaccinated, socially distance, mask and protect themselves, their families and their employees ober 14 months and then say see all that stuff we did to ourselves didn't help. How do they know that? Its more likely scientifically that we would have have had multitudes of great death-so maybe we could be looking at 3,300,000 American dead rather than 560,000.

 

 

This is a great illustration of exactly what DCGuy64 was talking about

[graphicguy]

7 minutes ago, Stallion said:

yeah sure if 99% survive who cares? Let's see .01% x 330,000,000 (U.S. population)= only 3,300,000 American deaths.

I always love how some want to disregard the personal sacrifice of millions of Americans to get vaccinated, socially distance, mask and protect themselves, their families and their employees over 14 months and then say "see all that stuff we did to ourselves didn't help". How do they know that? Its more likely scientifically that we would have have had multitudes of greater deaths-so maybe we could be looking at 3,300,000 American dead rather than 560,000.

BRAVO!

[DCGuy64]

11 minutes ago, ukbecky said:

 

 

This is a great illustration of exactly what DCGuy64 was talking about

Yep, thinking the same thing. 🤷‍♂️

Notice how our friend Stallion assumes (without evidence, of course) that ALL 1% of Americans WILL die of Covid. There's no evidence I've ever seen that assumes the entire population of the USA will contract Covid in the first place, much less that 3,300,000 will die of it. And, keep in mind, it's not like people never die of anything. People are born, live and die all of the time. In fact, Covid is far from being the main cause of death in the US. And that's without getting into the negative effects of the lock downs. But that's not his agenda, of course.

Edited April 13, 2021 by DCGuy64

[graphicguy]

NCL has just become the safest mainstream cruise line sailing with their activities and COVID vaccine mandate.

[macandlucy]

That figure assumes every single American will get infected with covid-19 though. But they won't ... because of herd immunity.

A virus needs a host to reproduce.

Prior infection eliminates a person (in most cases) as a host.

The reduction in the number of available hosts causes the R0 (transmission rate) to drop.

 

[macandlucy]

The whole topic is turning into the Smoking Thread 2.0. 

 

I'm all for different opinions, but it seems like it's turning into an opportunity to chastise others. 

 

Take your vaccine, don't - I don't care. I'm taking one when I can because I think the odds of me getting really sick or dying from covid are higher than the odds of an adverse effect from a vaccine. And in both cases, the odds are pretty low. 

 

ETA: If I take a vaccine to benefit myself, or if I take it to benefit others is an unimportant distinction re: the virus. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by macandlucy

[macandlucy]

Interesting question, DCGuy64. Where I live, and early on, (March or April 2020) our provincial health authority took a look at that, just did covid testing on blood samples taken from people who had been to a lab for blood work for some other reason. At that time, the incidence was very low. I don't remember what it was exactly, but IIRC, it was in the neighborhood of less than 1%. I was surprised by that; I would have expected it to be higher.

 

[mjkacmom]

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

Yep, thinking the same thing. 🤷‍♂️

Notice how our friend Stallion assumes (without evidence, of course) that ALL 1% of Americans WILL die of Covid. There's no evidence I've ever seen that assumes the entire population of the USA will contract Covid in the first place, much less that 3,300,000 will die of it. And, keep in mind, it's not like people never die of anything. People are born, live and die all of the time. In fact, Covid is far from being the main cause of death in the US. And that's without getting into the negative effects of the lock downs. But that's not his agenda, of course.

The 1% of 330 million may be an unscientific measure, but what is not is that it was demonstrated at the beginning of this horrific episode that some 2 to 2.5 million people would die if no measures were taken to combat the virus, including lockdowns, masks, social distancing, testing and tracing along with all the others.  That is not an insignificant number by any means.  Neither is the 565+ thousand who have already died, and counting. Not to mention the 10% or so of the 31 million infected who have been sickened with COVID and have long lasting health issues because of it.  This "people die" crap is just that; CRAP!  And I am exhausted by listening to it day in and day out.  COVID is the third highest cause of death in this nation now.  Also not insignificant.  The primary problem in this country is that although health protocols have been put out there there is a portion of our citizenry that have ignored those protocols and chosen the "me over them" mentality.  "Freedom and liberty" has been the battle cry.  But some conveniently forget that freedom and liberty comes with an obligation to our fellow citizens as well.

Edited April 13, 2021 by harkinmr

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

some 2 to 2.5 million people would die if no measures were taken to combat the virus, including lockdowns, masks, social distancing, testing and tracing along with all the others.

Which didn't happen because people did do all those things. Let me repeat: the nightmare scenario you outlined FAILED TO COME TRUE, buddy. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

You say you're exhausted. So am I, your posts are consistently some of the most depressing, negative, unhelpful ones on this website, and most of your 438 posts (since 2007!) have been in the last week.

My patience with your negativity is at an end. BLOCKED.

[harkinmr]

30 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Which didn't happen because people did do all those things. Let me repeat: the nightmare scenario you outlined FAILED TO COME TRUE, buddy. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

You say you're exhausted. So am I, your posts are consistently some of the most depressing, negative, unhelpful ones on this website, and most of your 438 posts (since 2007!) have been in the last week.

My patience with your negativity is at an end. BLOCKED.

I know you will not see my post because you have blocked me, but to be frank, these boards are filled with negativity ever since the cruise shutdown.  Lots of posting (including yours) complaining about cruise cancellations, criticizing the cruise lines for one or another planned protocols, criticizing the CDC and other medical experts at every turn.  Not too much positive that I have seen.  I guess what's "helpful" is entirely in the eye of the beholder.  Finally, it is apparent that the ability to participate and comment on these discussions is considered by some to be the number of posts someone has made, or perhaps by point of view.  That is not the way it works.  And when there is a discussion and someone expresses their opinion, then others have a right to express their opinion as well.  I will continue to criticize the "people die" mantra that is so often used to justify COVID deaths.  

Edited April 13, 2021 by harkinmr

[Sthrngary]

43 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

People need to get over the masks. The first time I heard it mentioned, I figured it was to keep panic down because there wasn’t nearly enough masks. I live in an area first and hardest hit, our hospitals were overwhelmed. Folks here got a group together to make masks for hospital personnel to put over their n95 masks so they could be used longer. Remember when people washed their groceries before putting them away? Lysol and wipes couldn’t be found forever because everyone was disinfecting surfaces, now we know covid doesn’t linger as long as first thought. There was so little known back then, which cost people their lives.

I read these folk comments and roll my eyes.  Very early on in this specific thread, I called out folks.  I said, you are taking cruise vacations and making a political issue.  Do that on a political board.  I was told more then once, it was not a political issue.  Well, the post you commented above on which is a user I have place on ignore just confirmed the politics of it.  Now it is not only about vaccines it is about how the CDC lied to use about masks.  WOW.  Politics at its best and HAS NO PLACE ON A CRUISE BOARD.  

The poster wants to scream from the top of every mountain there beliefs.  They truly feel they have the facts and they are right.  They are trying to pull folks in for a verbal war.  It is tempting however i will pass.  Instead, getting my second shot tomorrow, going on two cruises in the next 8 months.  Both cruise brands make a vaccine mandatory to go on the cruise.  I would have gotten the vaccine anyway.  I so much want to make this about being on the far right or left.  Instead I am making it about cruising, with a balcony, with my vaccinated family HAVING A GREAT CRUISE VACATION.  

This site is Cruise Critic not anti-vaccine critic.  Just saying. 

[SNJCruisers]

50 minutes ago, Sthrngary said:

 

This site is Cruise Critic not anti-vaccine critic.  Just saying. 

Could not agree more.  The line is drawn in the proverbial sand.  You either get vaccinated or you don't.  If you do, you're able to cruise on NCL and have a great vacation.  If you don't, then you'll have to choose another line that doesn't require vaccinations or go to an all inclusive.

99% of people have already made up their mind which side of the line they are standing on, so 500+ posts on the topic are not going to sway too many people from crossing the line to the other side.  Happy cruising. ⚓ 

[Georgia_Peaches]

3 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

What is the endgame? 

Lots of conspiracy theories out there but in my opinion the end game is the Great Reset.

https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/

[Sthrngary]

8 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Ok, I think I finally figured it out!  (1) You have an incessant need to be the center of attention and discussion.  (2) You want to dominate the conversation because you think that domination somehow makes you a winner.  (3) You think that if you inundate people with diatribes and nonsense that they will somehow be forced to cry uncle and agree with you.  Or (4) maybe, just maybe, you are simply trying to increase your post count so you can be King of Cruise Critic.  Don't know, don't care.  Carry on...

Thank you HARKINMR.  I think you hit issue on the head.  My guess is all four listed items.  Well written. Again, Thank You.  

[Georgia_Peaches]

9 minutes ago, SNJCruisers said:

Could not agree more.  The line is drawn in the proverbial sand.  You either get vaccinated or you don't.  If you do, you're able to cruise on NCL and have a great vacation.  If you don't, then you'll have to choose another line that doesn't require vaccinations or go to an all inclusive.

99% of people have already made up their mind which side of the line they are standing on, so 500+ posts on the topic are not going to sway too many people from crossing the line to the other side.  Happy cruising. ⚓ 

Well said.  I am not a divisive person by nature.  I think it's fair to say it's just time to agree to disagree on this topic and move on.  Cruisers, in general are really good people.  In a perfect world, there aren't many here that I wouldn't gladly have a cocktail with!  I hope to make my way back to cruising some day and in the meantime, I don't mind waving to ya'll from my all inclusive beach resort as you pass on by.  Be well, everyone!

[Georgia_Peaches]

Just as an aside, the FDA and CDC have halted the distribution of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine for being linked to blood clots per an announcement April 13, 2021.

[logan25]

22 hours ago, Stallion said:

yeah sure if 99% survive who cares? Let's see .01% x 330,000,000 (U.S. population)= only 3,300,000 American deaths.

I always love how some want to disregard the personal sacrifice of millions of Americans to get vaccinated, socially distance, mask and protect themselves, their families and their employees over 14 months and then say "see all that stuff we did to ourselves didn't help". How do they know that? Its more likely scientifically that we would have have had multitudes of greater deaths-so maybe we could be looking at 3,300,000 American dead rather than 560,000.

I believe your calculation is inaccurate.  Perhaps it is a typo.

 

.01% x 330,000,000 = 33,000

 

1% x 330,000,000 = 3,300,000

 

[KennyFla]

I have already been vaccinated so I don't have a side in this fight.  I would like to point out that the CDC STILL has not given a go ahead for even all vaccinated cruises.

That is the most troubling thing to me.

[nomad098]

36 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

I have already been vaccinated so I don't have a side in this fight.  I would like to point out that the CDC STILL has not given a go ahead for even all vaccinated cruises.

That is the most troubling thing to me.

 

This is probably because the CDC are aware of the same information as Pfizer, Moderna, Astrazeneca, UK Government Scientists, vaccine producers, various other scientists around the world and anyone else that has taken the time to read the research, that 100% vaccinated cruises are a PR stunt, offers a false sense of security and provides another opportunity for variants to spread.

 

Latest information from some of the vaccine manufacturers is:

 

The present crop of vaccines target the spike protein however your immune system is never exposed to the virus this becomes a problem later.

 

When exposed to covid-19 after vaccination your immune system recognises the spike protein, it goes into action reducing the risk of death, hospitalisation and serious illness in most, your immune system also teaches itself about SARS COV 2.

 

The probability is in favour of you having an effective immune response to other covid-19 variants this is based upon decades of research into yellow fever and other RNA viruses which showed that mutations on the outside receptors made no difference to the effectiveness of your immune system once exposed to a live virus.

 

If you have been vaccinated but never come into contact with the spike protein you are vaccinated against this is where the problems start. 

 

If you are exposed to covid-19 variant where the spike has mutated enough your immune system is not primed to deal with the variant infection and so you are starting at square 1 with no immunity this will result in deaths, hospitalisations and illness. The people that survive should have immunity as your body now sees the whole virus not just the spike

 

The answer is booster shots to teach your immune system about the next variant, if you infected with either the original or the next variant this means your immune system will teach itself about SARS COV 2. This cycle goes on with booster shots for the next variant and so on and so on, It's an arms race until your infected with either a version of covid you are vaccinated against or you catch the variant your not vaccinated against and your back at square 1.

 

RNA viruses naturally mutate but they can be pressured to mutate by vaccines this becomes exacerbated when the vaccines are only targeting the spike protein which will mutate rapidly to avoid the vaccines, the probability is the virus will out run vaccine technology and the vaccine manufacturers will always be playing catch up. Eventually there will be an escape variant that is vaccine resistant.

 

This is why a 100% vaccinated cruise at the moment is a fallacy because if everyone is vaccinated against lets say covid A and someone gets on the ship with covid B only those that have had actual exposure to covid A will have any sort of immunity and the rest are no different to unvaccinated people and the new variant can spread.

 

Testing is the only real answer until such time as either a vaccine is created which sees the whole virus similar to yellow fever vaccine or enough people have been exposed to the disease for herd immunity. Research is showing that herd immunity will take a long time to achieve with the current crop of vaccines as the virus only needs to alter it's spike protein to be able to infect a person that has not already been exposed. There is research into vaccines that mimic the whole virus however covid-19 is considered too dangerous to make a live attenuated vaccine.

 

A re-think by Governments and social views is needed to actually combat this disease and a lot more money put into a long term vaccine solution.

 

Using vaccines that contribute to creating variants is not a long term solution but if i was a cynic I could say it's a good money maker

 

A quote from the founder of Moderna

"Vaccines were never on our radar as they do not make good business sense"

 

[JustAPilot]

Could also be the CDC has asked the cruise line if an outbreak was to occur on your ships what is your protocol and the cruise lines probably responded with “we dock back in Florida and you guys deal with it.” Cruise lines are there to make money, not give passengers an extra 2 weeks of a free cruise while passengers quarantine on the ships. 

[D C]

8 minutes ago, JustAPilot said:

Could also be the CDC has asked the cruise line if an outbreak was to occur on your ships what is your protocol and the cruise lines probably responded with “we dock back in Florida and you guys deal with it.” Cruise lines are there to make money, not give passengers an extra 2 weeks of a free cruise while passengers quarantine on the ships. 

As it should be.

An "outbreak" on a fully vaccinated cruise simply won't happen.   There may be a mild case or two, but that's it.