NCL leaving Florida? Will HAL follow?

[rucrazy]

6 minutes ago, Laminator said:

Follow the money!

👍🏼👍🏼

[Mary229]

18 minutes ago, Laminator said:

I don't see a major fight. As always it is about the money. Follow the money!

Actually it should be about the money.  When a government limits your legal activity and causes economic harm you should have your day in court.

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

I have a feeling that a major fight is coming.

 

The issue of will there be or will there not be cruising from an American port in 2021 is coming to a "head".  Because of the developments in the industry in the most recent months/CDC/lawsuits, etc., I have thought--and said on CC--this day of decision will occur before the Summer Solstice.  

[mcrcruiser]

It will all work out favorably for the cruise lines  to sail from florida ports ,imo    .Watch  the money ball 

[cscurlock]

15 hours ago, Mary229 said:

It is interesting that cases concerning the eviction moratorium have been wending their way through the courts and it looks like a federal judge is going to strike down that moratorium which was imposed by the CDC.  The principle arguments are first about the CDC's authority but also about economic loss.   Google News Search "CDC eviction moratorium"

 

 

Judge Dabney Friedrich of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia said in her ruling that the CDC did not have the authority to impose the moratorium.

“It is the role of the political branches, and not the courts, to assess the merits of policy measures designed to combat the spread of disease, even during a global pandemic,” the ruling stated. “The question for the Court is a narrow one: Does the Public Health Service Act grant the CDC the legal authority to impose a nationwide eviction moratorium? It does not.”

What you say is true.   But what is lost in all this is the fact that the CDC has given the cruise lines very strict requirements to resume sailing for a while now and they didn't want to have to go through those hoops as well as costs.  The CDC may not have the authority to have a complete moratorium but what the CDC does have the ability to do is put in requirements that most cruise lines will not want to agree with and that's entirely on these cruise lines.  

[POA1]

There's even been rumors floating around that some in the CDC only want to consider people fully vaccinated if they have had their vaccines in the correct, prescribed time frames. That's great for people who have gotten the J&J/Janssen single dose vaccine or people who have the two dose vaccine at the proper intervals. It kind of screws a lot of Canadians though.

 

It also keeps families with kids from cruising. I realize that kids are not a huge HAL contingent but I am pretty sure that this is a lot of negotiating tactics. Jack Del Rio is known as a blow hard. I can't see him looking at his terminal investments as sunk costs. Where is NCL going to get the money to build new terminals elsewhere? I've been on the NCL Escape. No embarkation or disembarkation crowd on HAL ever prepared us for that experience. The crowd is a lot like leaving a football game that was decided in the final seconds. Except there's luggage and customs.

[rhblake]

Does anyone have the answer to this question: Is the ban on asking for proof of vaccination an “executive order” or a “law”?

If it is an executive order the governor can simply resend it, problem solved. But if it is a law the legislature will need to amend or repeal it and that might take some time. Is the Florida legislature currently in session to take up such a measure?

[POA1]

6 minutes ago, rhblake said:

Does anyone have the answer to this question: Is the ban on asking for proof of vaccination an “executive order” or a “law”?

 

If it is an executive order the governor can simply resend it, problem solved. But if it is a law the legislature will need to amend or repeal it and that might take some time. Is the Florida legislature currently in session to take up such a measure?

 

Currently an EO, but the EO stop gaps the law which, IIRC, goes into effect around the end of July.

[Aardvaark]

25 minutes ago, POA1 said:

Currently an EO, but the EO stop gaps the law which, IIRC, goes into effect around the end of July.

Since signed into law to take effect 1 July 2021. 

You can read the official summary here:

https://www.flsenate.gov/PublishedContent/Session/2021/BillSummary/Military_MS2006ms_02006_docx.pdf

 

The Florida legislature has adjourned for this year, except a Special Session of 5 days will take up Florida Gaming laws beginning 17 May 2021.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Aardvaark
Add info.

[geocruiser]

Just adding my 2 cents.  I have cruised many times but never been on a NCL cruise.   If NCL will only have vaccinated PAX and crew onboard, that is who I will cruise with.  I would think there would be other PAX who would feel the same as I do. 

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, rhblake said:

Does anyone have the answer to this question: Is the ban on asking for proof of vaccination an “executive order” or a “law”?

 

If it is an executive order the governor can simply resend it, problem solved. But if it is a law the legislature will need to amend or repeal it and that might take some time. Is the Florida legislature currently in session to take up such a measure?

 

The EO was promulgated into law by legislation that was signed by the Governor this past week.  How it is interpreted and whether it can be legally applied to the cruise lines remains an open question.  

[Mary229]

3 hours ago, cscurlock said:

What you say is true.   But what is lost in all this is the fact that the CDC has given the cruise lines very strict requirements to resume sailing for a while now and they didn't want to have to go through those hoops as well as costs.  The CDC may not have the authority to have a complete moratorium but what the CDC does have the ability to do is put in requirements that most cruise lines will not want to agree with and that's entirely on these cruise lines.  

I think you are right in pointing out the differences where I only listed similarities. I do think 6 months ago it may have been hard to get a judge to rule either way because of the large hold on public opinion.  Now that public opinion is becoming more varied I think the courts can proceed unfettered by the spotlight.  I think the first hearing of the Florida case is May 12, so not much longer to wait.

[michael620]

I wish that the CEO of Holland America (and Carnival Corp) would join Norwegian's head and agree/insist that all passengers be vaccinated, until such time as the pandemic threat is gone.  I really don't understand the reluctance to protect cruisers.  This business of restricting use of pools and spas, masks between courses in the dining room, etc. are restrictions that are NOT being applied to hotels or restaurants on land, s o why should they apply to cruise ships?  I will feel safer on a ship where everyone is vaccinated than at an indoor restaurant or hotel elevator in a major USA city where perhaps fewer than 30% of the population is vaccinated.

 

Furthermore, how can the governor of Florida ban private companies from requiring vaccinations?  According to my lawyer friends, this is not legal, and it certainly is not helpful for the economy of Florida. All it will do is drive away the cruise ships and the jobs. Ships will sail, but perhaps from other ports in other countries or other states.

 

We know that for the next few years, cruising will be different, but it can resume with modest changes if we all band together and work for the good and health of everyone.

[weeislayman]

At the end of the day, I don't believe that the Cruise Industry can afford another Diamond Princess scenario.  Out with those of us who enjoy cruising, there isn't a lot of sympathy for an industry that is seen as decadent, hard on the environment, and is very selective as to where it pays its taxes.

Cruise line executives will be well aware of the immediate costs of further outbreaks.  These immediate costs will pale in comparison to the long term costs. As such, I don't think that they will take unnecessary risks.  They will be aware that they won't be able to hide behind ignorance.  They will be expected to have learned many lessons from the results of the pandemic, including the 3.27 million deaths - almost 18% of which have occurred in the US alone.  Any further outbreak on a cruise ship will generate a tsunami of legal claims.

I think that they will proceed with an abundance of caution.

If they don't, those of us who may be uncomfortable will cancel and move on.

Just my 2 cents...

[rkacruiser]

8 hours ago, POA1 said:

I've been on the NCL Escape. No embarkation or disembarkation crowd on HAL ever prepared us for that experience. The crowd is a lot like leaving a football game that was decided in the final seconds. Except there's luggage and customs.

 

The largest ship on which I have sailed was MSC Meraviglia.  I think NCL Escape is larger with more guests,  Your comparison to an embarkation and disembarkation between a HAL ship and Meraviglia is accurate.  Add to that "mess", the general chaotic nature of the Port of Miami.  

 

8 hours ago, POA1 said:

There's even been rumors floating around that some in the CDC only want to consider people fully vaccinated if they have had their vaccines in the correct, prescribed time frames. That's great for people who have gotten the J&J/Janssen single dose vaccine or people who have the two dose vaccine at the proper intervals. It kind of screws a lot of Canadians though.

 

While I hope those rumors are unfounded, I can understand the thinking behind it.  If one has a prescription and the doctor's orders are to take one tablet every 12 hours, that does not mean one can take it whenever one chooses to do so for the medicine to be able to do its best job.  There must be clinical data to support the time intervals that Moderna and Pfizer has recommended that dose #2 ought to be received.  I'd be very  uncomfortable if my dose #2 was given to me beyond the recommended time.

 

I have much concern for my Canadian friends who have received only their first dose with dose #2 being given "sometime this Summer".  They hope.  

Edited May 8, 2021 by rkacruiser

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

The largest ship on which I have sailed was MSC Meraviglia.  I think NCL Escape is larger with more guests,  Your comparison to an embarkation and disembarkation between a HAL ship and Meraviglia is accurate.  Add to that "mess", the general chaotic nature of the Port of Miami.  

 

 

While I hope those rumors are unfounded, I can understand the thinking behind it.  If one has a prescription and the doctor's orders are to take one tablet every 12 hours, that does not mean one can take it whenever one chooses to do so for the medicine to be able to do its best job.  There must be clinical data to support the time intervals that Moderna and Pfizer has recommended that dose #2 ought to be received.  I'd be very  uncomfortable if my dose #2 was given to me beyond the recommended time.

 

I have much concern for my Canadian friends who have received only their first dose with dose #2 being given "sometime this Summer".  They hope.  

I believe the recommended time between  doses was based on the clinical trials. And remember the clinical trials could have taken longer if more times between doses were experimented with, but there was the impetus to get them done quickly because of being in a pandemic.

 

What Canada and the UK are doing is in effect an experiment, but it does seem to be working in the UK.

 

Actually our second Moderna shots were 10 days late; they were scheduled for 4 weeks but the vaccine was not available due to weather problems with their delivery.

[Florida_gal_50]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

While I hope those rumors are unfounded, I can understand the thinking behind it.  If one has a prescription and the doctor's orders are to take one tablet every 12 hours, that does not mean one can take it whenever one chooses to do so for the medicine to be able to do its best job.  There must be clinical data to support the time intervals that Moderna and Pfizer has recommended that dose #2 ought to be received.  I'd be very  uncomfortable if my dose #2 was given to me beyond the recommended time.

 

I have much concern for my Canadian friends who have received only their first dose with dose #2 being given "sometime this Summer".  They hope.  

You understand that it’s not Canadians that are deciding this, correct?   It is not decision of the people getting vaccinated.  What would be your solution? Scream and insist on a second shot based on trails?

[CruiserBruce]

12 hours ago, POA1 said:

There's even been rumors floating around that some in the CDC only want to consider people fully vaccinated if they have had their vaccines in the correct, prescribed time frames.

OMG...the end of the world as we know it...I got my second Moderna 27 days after my first...just because that was when they had a slot for me!! 🥵

[weeislayman]

I think we need to be careful and not speculate or assume too much on this, folks.

The Canadian decision was based on a considerable amount of real world data from countries whose vaccination program was much more advanced than Canada's.  This included many studies conducted in Israel, the UK and the US among others.

Some studies even indicate that a longer interval can provoke an even stronger immune response than those indicated in the clinical trials.  These trials had been conducted in a very short period, so didn't have much to say about longer term effectiveness.

It wasn't just 'let's give this a try'.  Our health care system doesn't work that way.
 

[cruisegirl]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:42 PM, Mary229 said:

I am as big a libertarian as you will ever meet. In light of freedom whether a business requires vaccines or not is not the government's business from a libertarian's point of view.  If Florida can't find the consistency to let businesses act with the best interest of themselves, their patrons and their employees we will be happy to have them in Texas.

It would serve the Florida governor right if the cruise companies went elsewhere and left him holding the bag. 

[cruisegirl]

13 hours ago, Aardvaark said:

Since signed into law to take effect 1 July 2021. 

You can read the official summary here:

https://www.flsenate.gov/PublishedContent/Session/2021/BillSummary/Military_MS2006ms_02006_docx.pdf

 

The Florida legislature has adjourned for this year, except a Special Session of 5 days will take up Florida Gaming laws beginning 17 May 2021.

 

Thanks for posting that link. The bill prohibits Floridians from having to show proof of vaccination but doesn’t addresses requiring vaccinations from persons from other states or countries.  Am I correct?  If so,  I am surprised the discussions make it sound as if it is everyone. 

[HappyInVan]

7 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

I have much concern for my Canadian friends who have received only their first dose with dose #2 being given "sometime this Summer".  They hope.  

 

Don't worry about Canadians. We are rapidly vaccinating and catching up. We will receive a heavy supply of vaccine in the month of May. Completing the second dose by early August.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/moderna-deliveries-may-1.6007912

 

My second dose has been delayed to 16 weeks. There is evidence that that is okay. But, the elderly (>75 years) may need priority...

 

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/it-s-urgent-b-c-researchers-push-for-quick-2nd-covid-19-vaccinations-for-elderly-1.5362393

 

The important thing is that children will be next...

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/children-12-and-older-now-cleared-to-receive-pfizer-vaccine-health-canada-1.5414935

 

 

[Horizon chaser 1957]

10 hours ago, cruisegirl said:

Thanks for posting that link. The bill prohibits Floridians from having to show proof of vaccination but doesn’t addresses requiring vaccinations from persons from other states or countries.  Am I correct?  If so,  I am surprised the discussions make it sound as if it is everyone. 
 

 

Good point. In fact, the actual wording allows a Swiss cheese like arrangement of loopholes, if and when they are needed:  

 

“The bill also prohibits requirements of COVID-19-vaccination documentation to access, enter, or receive service from businesses, governmental entities, and educational institution. The bill prohibits such entities from requiring Floridians to provide proof of vaccination or post-infection recovery from COVID-19 but does not restrict the use of screening protocols.”

 

The bill does indeed refer specifically to Floridians. It also says the customer must be able to enter a business and receive service. It says nothing about boarding transportation. It could be argued that a Floridian has the right to enter a cruise terminal and get service at the desk. It says nothing about being allowed,to board a ship if they do not have the correct documentation for the sailing. It also says nothing about originally purchasing a cruise from an out of state business that may require proof of documentation prior to the cruise itself.

 

 

[kazu]

10 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Don't worry about Canadians. We are rapidly vaccinating and catching up. We will receive a heavy supply of vaccine in the month of May. Completing the second dose by early August.

 

You are more optimistic than I. 😉 
 

I’ll believe it when I see it 😉 

[lostinparadise999]

59 minutes ago, Horizon chaser 1957 said:

 

Good point. In fact, the actual wording allows a Swiss cheese like arrangement of loopholes, if and when they are needed:  

 

“The bill also prohibits requirements of COVID-19-vaccination documentation to access, enter, or receive service from businesses, governmental entities, and educational institution. The bill prohibits such entities from requiring Floridians to provide proof of vaccination or post-infection recovery from COVID-19 but does not restrict the use of screening protocols.”

 

The bill does indeed refer specifically to Floridians. It also says the customer must be able to enter a business and receive service. It says nothing about boarding transportation. It could be argued that a Floridian has the right to enter a cruise terminal and get service at the desk. It says nothing about being allowed,to board a ship if they do not have the correct documentation for the sailing. It also says nothing about originally purchasing a cruise from an out of state business that may require proof of documentation prior to the cruise itself.

 

 

Florida can say what they want but once the cruise ship leaves port they are no longer controlled by Florida laws. If the EU countries require a Green Digital passport and proof of negative results then that is the law for cruise ships entering. So the passengers on the ship without proof stays on the ship at each port or the ship is turned away from the port.

The cruise ship cannot put themselves in the same position they were in 2019, nor should the passengers accept their Florida's requirement when it puts everyone's safety and health at risk during the cruise.

I have cruised NCL, not a fan but I have to admire them for taking the stand everyone must be vaccinated including crew. 

Canada is seriously looking at aligning with other countries with the same interest in keeping its citizen safe and healthy. Our borders with US is closed so we can control the spread.