CDC says no more masks for the vaccinated, so now what?

[ch175]

39 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Folks the CDC has removed mask requirements for most situations for the fully vaccinated.  That is because a lot of people made heroic efforts to develop highly effective vaccines in record time.  And a lot more worked on getting a substantial portion of the US population vaccinated and now other countries are moving forward and getting it done too.  So I am really confused (or amazed maybe) that this thread on "so now what?" is having continued debates on the viral transmission and masking and fine details and fine percentages and frankly semantics.  "So Now What"?  In short order safe cruising for the vaccinated.

Why? Are you kidding?

 

(1) Fauci and the CDC continue to pump out contradictory information. 
 

(2) The media isn’t asking relevant questions and holding government officials accountable.

 

How many weeks ago was the teary-eyed CDC lady on tv telling us all a horrible spike was coming? A matter of weeks ago the CDC was shouting doom, and now there is a complete 180 on masks for vaccinated people. This is not a “fine detail.”

[TeeRick]

1 minute ago, ch175 said:

Why? Are you kidding?

 

(1) Fauci and the CDC continue to pump out contradictory information. 
 

(2) The media isn’t asking relevant questions and holding government officials accountable.

 

How many weeks ago was the teary-eyed CDC lady on tv telling us all a horrible spike was coming? A matter of weeks ago the CDC was shouting doom, and now there is a complete 180 on masks for vaccinated people. This is not a “fine detail.”

I was referring to fine details and percentages being debated on this thread about viral transmission rates in the fully vaccinated.  

[nocl]

4 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Here is the source of the data cited in the CDC announcement.

 

Postvaccination SARS-CoV-2 Infections Among Skilled Nursing Facility Residents and Staff Members — Chicago, Illinois, December 2020–March 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov)

 

Here's the slide from the CDC presentation last week.  No facility-associated secondary transmission was observed.  You can do whatever you like with the information, but this is the information and the key studies that the CDC said was important.

 

No facility-associated secondary transmission was observed.

 

So you are taking 1 report that consisted of 22 cases and are trying to say that the CDC is stating that there is NO documented cases of transmission from vaccinated individuals anywhere.

 

No wonder you are accusing the CDC being all over the map if you are trying to make those kinds of out of context  stretches out of CDC statements.

 

This was a report on one outbreak, not a universal statement of risk.

[cangelmd]

14 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Actually, they do if you select the State Profile option and drill down to the Notes section under Hospilalization. They just haven't posted the Notes yet for the latest correction, just info about the correction submitted on March 15th. But, that's ok, it is what it is and I was pretty sure we didn't have that big of influx for no reason. But, as you said, the vaccination rate is abysmal given the fact vaccines are widely available in our state now. A lot of folks just don't want to take it for whatever reason. I have noticed, though, the ADPH is starting to advertise their availability on tv lately, which is a good thing.

You are pointing out something else I've noticed - advertising has been poor. I'm not sure what would be better, so I likely shouldn't criticize. Maybe they were waiting until the demand went down to not stress the system, I don't know, but if I were non-medical person and maybe concerned about the vaccine a bit, so not in a hurry - I don't know how I would have found out how to get a shot.

[ipeeinthepool]

47 minutes ago, nocl said:

So you are taking 1 report that consisted of 22 cases and are trying to say that the CDC is stating that there is NO documented cases of transmission from vaccinated individuals anywhere.

 

No wonder you are accusing the CDC being all over the map if you are trying to make those kinds of out of context  stretches out of CDC statements.

 

This was a report on one outbreak, not a universal statement of risk.

 

No, this is what your experts at the CDC say.  Are you going to pick and choose what you believe from your experts.  This is what they used to make the decision.   Perhaps they have more information that they didn't reference.  If you actually read the report, there were about 7900 people involved that resulted in only 22 breakthrough cases and no secondary transmission.   Seems pretty good top me.  This is real world data.   Instead of relying on things that are theoretically possible, why don't you provide some evidence that  secondary transmission from asymptomatic vaccinated people result in secondary transmission.   If it is a problem, then we should be seeing some evidence that this is occurring.  Unless there is some strong evidence that this is actually occurring, it's time for vaccinated people to resume their normal lives.

[ipeeinthepool]

 

1 hour ago, ch175 said:

How many weeks ago was the teary-eyed CDC lady on tv telling us all a horrible spike was coming? A matter of weeks ago the CDC was shouting doom, and now there is a complete 180 on masks for vaccinated people. This is not a “fine detail.”

Are you talking about the "Impending Doom" lady?   You can't be talking about one of our country's top medical officials?

[JRG]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

"So Now What"?  In short order safe cruising for the vaccinated.

 

I can't remember what one of the cruiseline CEO's said exactly when it all started,   but it was something to the effect of:   

 

     "We will resume cruising when we resume normal social distancing"

 

If it is seems okay to remove masks and or/allow them in society then it should be safe in cruising.

 

Are we at or near that point yet?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by JRG

[Aloha 1]

14 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

165 million have at least one shot, 117 million are fully vaccinated.  There is a bit of a difference.  Oh, and by "fully vaccinated" that means at least 2 weeks since you had your second dose (or only dose of J&J).

At 1 shot both Moderna and Pfizer have demonstrated efficacy north of 85%. Far far superior to the flu shot

[Orator]

The policy relies on a honor system. People who have been fully vaccinated will have "honor". People who are not vaccinated will play the "system".

[UnorigionalName]

apparently "now what" is "still more waiting"

Edited May 17, 2021 by UnorigionalName

[AstoriaPreppy]

23 hours ago, ch175 said:

Is there evidence that masks do anything to slow the spread of COVID?

 

Yes... masks demonstrably reduce *transmission* of SARS-CoV-2, especially amongst people who are asymptomatic or presymptomatic, when they are the most contagious.

Wearing masks isn't entirely about protecting the wearer, it's about protecting the community from the wearer potentially acting as a super spreader without their knowledge. 

[AstoriaPreppy]

3 hours ago, ch175 said:

(1) Fauci and the CDC continue to pump out contradictory information. 
 

(2) The media isn’t asking relevant questions and holding government officials accountable.

 

How many weeks ago was the teary-eyed CDC lady on tv telling us all a horrible spike was coming? A matter of weeks ago the CDC was shouting doom, and now there is a complete 180 on masks for vaccinated people. This is not a “fine detail.”

1) That's how science works: our understanding of how best to deal with a new virus is constantly changing. The newest no mask guidance from the CDC was issued specifically *because* three just-reviewed and published studies showed a statistically significant difference in outdoor and indoor transmission amongst fully-vaccinated people. As science changes, so do the guidelines. 
 

2) The CDC director did warn everyone of a spike... in late March. Which happened. And then vaccines became more widely distributed. And then infection rates reduced dramatically. Which is where we are now. (again, science)

[nocl]

2 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

No, this is what your experts at the CDC say.  Are you going to pick and choose what you believe from your experts.  This is what they used to make the decision.   Perhaps they have more information that they didn't reference.  If you actually read the report, there were about 7900 people involved that resulted in only 22 breakthrough cases and no secondary transmission.   Seems pretty good top me.  This is real world data.   Instead of relying on things that are theoretically possible, why don't you provide some evidence that  secondary transmission from asymptomatic vaccinated people result in secondary transmission.   If it is a problem, then we should be seeing some evidence that this is occurring.  Unless there is some strong evidence that this is actually occurring, it's time for vaccinated people to resume their normal lives.

Apparently they are your experts since you are making claims about their statements being reality.  Which is it?

 

If you note I may support some of the regulatory positions of the CDC in relationship to cruise lines, but I seldom reference any of their reports, since I tend to go back to source documents and reference sources other that CDC.

 

On the other hand, you who routinely has criticized the CDC, is referencing a study as being absolute truth about absolute no secondary transmission from infected individuals based upon a study that just mentioned it as a side note from a total of 22 cases of fully vaccinated individuals in an environment where contacts are restricted.

 

 

Since the subject of the discussion is transmission from fully vaccinated individuals that were infected after full vaccination the relevant part of study is

 

Among the 22 persons with breakthrough infections, 14 (64%; eight residents and six staff members) were asymptomatic (Table 2). Three symptomatic persons (B3, E10, and G13) had mild, nonspecific symptoms; two (E8 and G12) had mild, specific symptoms; and three (A1, D6, and O22) had diagnosed pneumonia.^††† Four residents were hospitalized: two (D6 and O22) for COVID-19–related reasons and two (A1 and D5) for reasons unrelated to COVID-19; one resident (O22) died.

 

Under nursing home protocols one would really not expect secondary transmission to occur to a large degree because contacts have been and still are fairly restrictive.

 

 

 

 

One the other hand this  articlereferences a  study that points out that when one has been vaccinated and tested positive the rate of transmission to members of their house hold was reduced by 40-50% than in cases where the first person.  Note not eliminated, since it still occurs at 40-50% of the non-vaccinated rate.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

 

The team found that people who had been vaccinated for at least 21 days could still test positive for the virus. But viral transmission from these individuals to others in their households was 40–50% lower than transmission in households in which the first person to test positive had not been vaccinated. Results for the two vaccines were similar. The findings have not yet been peer reviewed

 

The actual study is here

 

https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619551571214

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by nocl

[ipeeinthepool]

54 minutes ago, nocl said:

Apparently they are your experts since you are making claims about their statements being reality.  Which is it?

 

If you note I may support some of the regulatory positions of the CDC in relationship to cruise lines, but I seldom reference any of their reports, since I tend to go back to source documents and reference sources other that CDC.

 

On the other hand, you who routinely has criticized the CDC, is referencing a study as being absolute truth about absolute no secondary transmission from infected individuals based upon a study that just mentioned it as a side note from a total of 22 cases of fully vaccinated individuals in an environment where contacts are restricted.

 

 

Since the subject of the discussion is transmission from fully vaccinated individuals that were infected after full vaccination the relevant part of study is

 

Among the 22 persons with breakthrough infections, 14 (64%; eight residents and six staff members) were asymptomatic (Table 2). Three symptomatic persons (B3, E10, and G13) had mild, nonspecific symptoms; two (E8 and G12) had mild, specific symptoms; and three (A1, D6, and O22) had diagnosed pneumonia.^††† Four residents were hospitalized: two (D6 and O22) for COVID-19–related reasons and two (A1 and D5) for reasons unrelated to COVID-19; one resident (O22) died.

 

Under nursing home protocols one would really not expect secondary transmission to occur to a large degree because contacts have been and still are fairly restrictive.

 

 

 

 

One the other hand this  articlereferences a  study that points out that when one has been vaccinated and tested positive the rate of transmission to members of their house hold was reduced by 40-50% than in cases where the first person.  Note not eliminated, since it still occurs at 40-50% of the non-vaccinated rate.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

 

The team found that people who had been vaccinated for at least 21 days could still test positive for the virus. But viral transmission from these individuals to others in their households was 40–50% lower than transmission in households in which the first person to test positive had not been vaccinated. Results for the two vaccines were similar. The findings have not yet been peer reviewed

 

The actual study is here

 

https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619551571214

 

 

 

 Don't argue with me, this is the CDC saying that there isn't any risk of a secondary infection.   Maybe you should send your comments to the CDC.

 

But perhaps TeeRick is right, this discussion has gone too far into the mud for this thread.  I'm done, you'll need to argue with someone else.

 

5 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Folks the CDC has removed mask requirements for most situations for the fully vaccinated.  That is because a lot of people made heroic efforts to develop highly effective vaccines in record time.  And a lot more worked on getting a substantial portion of the US population vaccinated and now other countries are moving forward and getting it done too.  So I am really confused (or amazed maybe) that this thread on "so now what?" is having continued debates on the viral transmission and masking and fine details and fine percentages and frankly semantics.  "So Now What"?  In short order safe cruising for the vaccinated.

 

[nocl]

7 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

 

 Don't argue with me, this is the CDC saying that there isn't any risk of a secondary infection.   Maybe you should send your comments to the CDC.

 

But perhaps TeeRick is right, this discussion has gone too far into the mud for this thread.  I'm done, you'll need to argue with someone else.

 

 

All I did was point out that the risk of transmission from an infected individual is not zero as you indicated.  

 

You seem to be fixated on what the CDC is saying or not saying.

[4774Papa]

3 hours ago, Orator said:

The policy relies on a honor system. People who have been fully vaccinated will have "honor". People who are not vaccinated will play the "system".

I am fully vaccinated and very glad that I did so.   However, I disagree with  your post.  Vaccination is a personal choice.

[ipeeinthepool]

7 minutes ago, nocl said:

All I did was point out that the risk of transmission from an infected individual is not zero as you indicated.  

 

You seem to be fixated on what the CDC is saying or not saying.

 

I should have stopped after post 72.  Nothing more needs to be said.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 9:19 AM, ipeeinthepool said:

 

There must be nothing left for you to argue about.  If the the viral load is low that the CDC isn't worried, that's good enough for me.  Vaccinated people aren't a threat to anyone.  Period.

 

[abbydancer2003]

29 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

I am fully vaccinated and very glad that I did so.   However, I disagree with  your post.  Vaccination is a personal choice.

Actually, it may not be.  In Jacobsen vs Massachusetts, the Supreme Court ruled that public health overrides personal choice, and forced a man to get a smallpox vaccine.  It's been upheld on schools requiring vaccines.

 

Note that I'm not a constitutional scholar,  I'm just reporting what I learned.  Would it apply here?  I have no idea, so am not going to offer an opinion.

 

 

[Orator]

34 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

I am fully vaccinated and very glad that I did so.   However, I disagree with  your post.  Vaccination is a personal choice.

My comment made no reference to personal choice. I simply indicted my feeling that those who have not vaccinated when the cruise lines require proof of vaccination for boarding will find some way to go around the requirement. They might lie or present falsified evidence of vaccination. There were reports of false vaccination cards being sold online and several people have been arrested at a bar in California either for selling or buying fake vaccination cards.

Ones personal choice ends at the point of my very prominent nose. I very pleased to know that you made the choice to protect others as well as yourself. Thank you.

[ipeeinthepool]

Dr Scott Gottlieb, former FDA commissioner,  says no one will be wearing masks in June.  I suspect he's right.  I wonder how this will affect cruises. 

[Covepointcruiser]

He may be speaking of the U.S.    Even then states no counties can have their own rules regarding masks.   The outbreak in Michigan and Baltimore is still horrendous.   Any area with a bunch of anti Vaxer’s will have outbreaks.   I’m vaccinated so I really don’t care if Darwin’s law of the survival of the fittest takes over.   Other countries have and will continue to have their own rules.   Seabourn and Greece are requiring proof of vaccination.   No one else will be allowed to board.  

[abbydancer2003]

I believe California just announced they are not lifting the mask mandate before their targeted reopen date of 6/15. At that time, it will be lifted (assuming nothing bad happens in the meantime).

 

We're a pretty compliant group overall.

[Lunesse]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:18 AM, TeeRick said:

  I think nobody quite believes the change.  Wonder how long it will take for vaccinated people to remove masks?

 

For many it will take their youngest being able to be vaccinated, before they can feel they can remove it. 

 

[4774Papa]

4 hours ago, abbydancer said:

Actually, it may not be.  In Jacobsen vs Massachusetts, the Supreme Court ruled that public health overrides personal choice, and forced a man to get a smallpox vaccine.  It's been upheld on schools requiring vaccines.

 

Note that I'm not a constitutional scholar,  I'm just reporting what I learned.  Would it apply here?  I have no idea, so am not going to offer an opinion.

 

 

As an attorney, I am aware of the law regarding vaccinations.   However, I believe the factor that would force a mandatory vaccination on the public would be a high mortality rate.  Smallpox has a history fatality rate of at least 30%.  The Black Plague wiped out 1/3 of the population of Europe in the 14th Century and that wasn't the only time it hit Europe.  The fatality rate for COVID19 is less than 1%, and the vaccines have only been provisionally approved.

 

I certainly remember the 50s and early 60s when polio vaccines were eagerly accepted, because of the obvious consequences of that disease, include President FDR.

[4774Papa]

4 hours ago, Orator said:

My comment made no reference to personal choice. I simply indicted my feeling that those who have not vaccinated when the cruise lines require proof of vaccination for boarding will find some way to go around the requirement. They might lie or present falsified evidence of vaccination. There were reports of false vaccination cards being sold online and several people have been arrested at a bar in California either for selling or buying fake vaccination cards.

Ones personal choice ends at the point of my very prominent nose. I very pleased to know that you made the choice to protect others as well as yourself. Thank you.

I agree regarding those that fraudulently fake their vaccinations is abhorrent.  That is a dishonest and sick choice.