DeSantis is OK with NCL leaving Florida

[At Sea At Peace]

19 hours ago, Navis said:

Both sides are posturing at this point. NCL is waiting to see what the final conditions are that come out of the CDC. To the extent it involves vaccinations at all, NCL will have all the ammunition they need to go to court and have the FL law preempted with respect to cruise lines. Even if the CDC ultimately relents and NCL decides on its own that it only wants to allow vaccinated people on board ... there is 99% (you never say 100) probability that FL would be powerless to stop them from requesting proof of vaccinations.

 

I’m sure NCL doesn’t want to do it that way (for obvious PR reasons), but the approach can be simple ... redeploy fleet while the suit is pending and just wait until the judgement is entered and then move back in. Maybe they can lease out their space in FL in the meantime? As others have said, they have a lot invested in FL and I do not think they will leave without a fight.

 

For anyone interested and who actually wants to read the case precedent.... the SCOTUS precedent is crystal clear on this one ... McCulloch ... look it up ... even a law adopted by the US CONGRESS cannot interfere with the operations of a foreign flagged vessel unless it expressly states that it intends to do so. So if US Congress can’t do so ... just imagine how much weaker FL’s argument is. That’s why none of us lawyers take DeSantis’ threats seriously at all.

 

And some of you may recall the Spector case against NCL years ago ... that case attempted to establish that cruise lines operating in the US were subject to ADA compliance. Again ... 9-0 the Supreme Court (the conservative Rehnquist court) concluded that foreign flagged vessels are exempt from US law unless said law expressly states its intent to apply to such vessels.

 

A really good post to read, except for representing all lawyers.

[At Sea At Peace]

17 hours ago, Navis said:

To be clear, my area of practice is not maritime law but rather corporate M&A. That said, as a curious jurist I try to read SCOUTS cases and areas of interest from my clerking days to keep my skills sharp.

 

That said, you picked the one example that I think might be clearer than others and I think (not sure) the alcohol one is easier to answer than others. Reading the maritime cases, a very high level summary would be something to the effect of ... when docked at a port ... the ship must comply with any local law that is entirely external to its operations, but is not subject any law harassing its internal operations. So think any transport/operations laws that may apply right up to the gangway.
 

Alcohol, however, has a massive trump card that gives states all the power to regulate in this space ... the 21st Amendment to the Constitution itself, which provides that: “[t]he transportation or importation into any state, territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.” It’s the phrase “in violation of the laws thereof” that gives TX the power to set the rules for cruise lines while within its jurisdiction.

 

One does not need a federal authorizing statute to subject a foreign flag vessel to a local law when the Constitution provides it itself! That is a large distinction from this vaccination issue.

 

I also find this particular topic VERY interesting ... you may recall a few years ago there was a  case decided by SCOUTS ... 7-2 (with the oddest collection of justices in the majority you’ll ever see ... ALITO wrote the opinion in which GINSBERG joined!). That was a case brought against the state of TN by Total Wine (I think ... or some large warehouse brand). They sued on the basis that the TN law requiring a 2 year residency prior to obtaining a liquor license was protectionism and violated the commerce AND dormant commerce clause of the US Constitution. SCOUTS agreed and struck down the TN law.  
 

Some would argue aspects of TX liquor laws are also protectionist in nature and ripe for a similar lawsuit. Now, the practical answer ... as understand it ... TX isn’t really restricting cruise lines in this space as much as they want to get paid the taxes on any port sales. Cruise lines all handle it differently ... some have a full bar and just hold processing until they are out to sea. Others let folks buy and charge the taxes to the passenger and let them order what they want. And yet others let cruisers use their packages at port and absorb the tax themselves BUT restrict port offerings to only TX liquors .. why? Because the tax rate on TX liquors while in TX is lower than the tax on imported liquors. 
 

I believe a few years ago @chengkp75posted a few times about the quirks of liquor laws for cruise ships while at port. Or at least I remember some posts to that effect as we were getting ready for our first cruise out of NYC.

 

 

Good read.

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, AstoriaPreppy said:

You can't *chew gum* in Singapore. People outside of America have very different perspectives on the personal liberties that do/don't matter. 

 

Some people are uniquely qualified to do something else whilst also chewing gum.  😉

[AdoraBelle]

58 minutes ago, kollegekreed said:

Ok by me. Friends and I are looking to travel and Florida is the only state not pn the list I can’t see rewarding them with any tourist money right now. Bars and clubs continuously posting videos of hundreds of massless people dancing and packed in...all set. 

 

Also: I really liked the crowd and vibe the one time I sailed out of Manhattan rather than Florida. 

[BermudaBound2014]

Speaking of Singapore- royal carribbean just made huge changes to their ships sailing out of Singapore. Including no restaurants (grab and go or room service only). Plus masks required even at Indoor pool. 
 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/25008-royal-caribbean-makes-key-onboard-changes-on-quantum-due-to-singapore-warning.html

[coaster]

13 minutes ago, AdoraBelle said:

 

Also: I really liked the crowd and vibe the one time I sailed out of Manhattan rather than Florida. 

I like the experience sailing out of Tampa and Port Canaveral more than Miami and Port Everglades. Port workers seem to be down to earth at these ports and don't treat you as a number.  Luckily, we have 6  cruise ports here in Florida where you have a choice.

Edited May 14, 2021 by coaster

[CruiserRob]

As I understand it, Florida law ends at the gangway.  Can't they just check your vaccine card/passport when you first board the ship with the understanding that you will be turned back with no refund if you do not provide such.

[Stick93]

2 hours ago, graphicguy said:

I know it cost me about the same to fly to Jamaica from my OH home as it does to fly to Miami.  And, I'm staying at a resort in Jamaica prior to cruising, all inclusive, for a little less than staying in a decent hotel in Miami. That's a win-win.  If NCL moves their Caribbean port to Jamaica permanently, I'd be OK with that.

Okay - now if a ship has a covid outbreak it will go back to Jamaica not the USA. If everyone is okay with that then I think it will make everyone happy. 
 

I am aware everyone will be vaccinated in Jamaica and the cruise -  but anything can happen. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Stick93

[Got2Cruise]

21 hours ago, coaster said:

FDR played the cancel culture game in threatening to pull out out of Florida ports  and DeSantis is calling him out on it now. I agree NCL needs Florida based ports more than we need to make FDR happy.

No. NCL is going to keep pax safe and cruise 100% vaccinated pax and crew. They have a right to decide how they will run their business. It’s called Capitalism. When the govt runs the businesses it’s called Communism. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Got2Cruise

[oteixeira]

34 minutes ago, Stick93 said:

Okay - now if a ship has a covid outbreak it will go back to Jamaica not the USA. If everyone is okay with that then I think it will make everyone happy. 
 

I am aware everyone will be vaccinated in Jamaica and the cruise -  but anything can happen. 

I am sorry but the CDC has made it quite clear how safe it will be if everyone is vaccinated.  Anything can happen, nuro, flu, people who act the fool.....no different then before Covid.  The one thing that almost surely wont happen is an outbreak that will shut down a cruise.  Based on the science it just isn't something that is likely to happen.  The CDC has said as much in the past 2 days.

I for one am following the science, and would love to cruise on a fully vaccinated cruise if I could, but with my other commitments I just can't get the time for a cruise this fall out of a non traditional port.

[beerman2]

22 hours ago, Shidah said:

New Orleans would be great to have more ships leave from.  They already have the hotels etc necessary close to the port to handle demand.  I left from Miami once and said never again.  Flying to Miami is expensive.  Flying to Ft Lauderdale was cheaper, but then you had to find transportation to Miami.  

Uber???? Pretty inexpensive compared to a cab from Fort Lauderdale to Miami. Plenty of Mass transportation available also.

 

It's not a bad situation flying into FLL and cruising out of Miami.

[RunBikeCruiseDC]

So, the other cruise lines are NOT requiring vaccines?  Or they just haven't mentioned it yet?  I thought vaccines are required for all selling (non-US ports).

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, RunBikeCruiseDC said:

So, the other cruise lines are NOT requiring vaccines?  Or they just haven't mentioned it yet?  I thought vaccines are required for all selling (non-US ports).

No other cruise line has made a commitment to sail with vaccinated passengers and crew as of yet.  NCL only.  Vaccines are not required by the CDC. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by harkinmr

[Shidah]

2 hours ago, beerman2 said:

Uber???? Pretty inexpensive compared to a cab from Fort Lauderdale to Miami. Plenty of Mass transportation available also.

 

It's not a bad situation flying into FLL and cruising out of Miami.

We did a limo last time.  I tend to pack....actually overpack, so getting the transportation scheduled ahead of time with enough room for all our luggage just made sense. But yes Uber would be an option. Like one poster mentioned, my favorite cruises were all the ones that left from NY.  I agree the people on board and the Vibe were so much better.  The friends we made on cruises that we still keep in contact with were all from NY.  My least favorite cruise was the Getaway from Miami, so maybe that has something to do with my perception.  But for all the people on here saying people want to eave from FL, that isn’t true for everyone.  And FL is not an easy drive for the majority of the east coast and Midwest.  If NCL gave us options of leaving from other ports, some people may be surprised at how many people would jump at the chance.  We would.  

[saltsandknit]

I don’t enjoy sailing out of Florida except Port Canaveral. We have to fly to any port so it really doesn’t matter if NCL homeports elsewhere. Our next 3 cruises are out of Dominican Republic or New York

[beerman2]

8 hours ago, Shidah said:

We did a limo last time.  I tend to pack....actually overpack, so getting the transportation scheduled ahead of time with enough room for all our luggage just made sense. But yes Uber would be an option. Like one poster mentioned, my favorite cruises were all the ones that left from NY.  I agree the people on board and the Vibe were so much better.  The friends we made on cruises that we still keep in contact with were all from NY.  My least favorite cruise was the Getaway from Miami, so maybe that has something to do with my perception.  But for all the people on here saying people want to eave from FL, that isn’t true for everyone.  And FL is not an easy drive for the majority of the east coast and Midwest.  If NCL gave us options of leaving from other ports, some people may be surprised at how many people would jump at the chance.  We would.  

😂😂😂 Ooooh you are one of "those" . My wife overpacked once in all the years of cruising/land vacations.  

 

We meet a couple on a cruise out of Fla. 14 years ago that we vacation with yearly land or sea. 

 

So Fla. is a special spot for us.

Edited May 15, 2021 by beerman2

[graphicguy]

19 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

 

Do you just make this up as you go along? NCL represents approximately 10% of the cruise market (not 25% of 33% as you stated). This chart is from 2019 so it's not "skewed due to covid" as you suggested. I think you may be well served to read the last few quarterly reports from each of the cruise lines that are traded publicly. It's likely you will gain some knowledge you actually find interesting, in the very least it will help you to look slightly more informed. 

 

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4273824-carnival-cruise-rough-seas-ahead

 

 

BTW: Your comment "Just think of how quickly the sailings would ramp up of Desantis would allow 100% COVID requirement? is also illogical from a statistical view.

 

 

2020 is the year that skewed this information.  Plus, given NCL is coming out of the Caribbean sailings by bypassing FL in favor of Jamaica, will give them a revenue advantage in that area.  Plus, the revenue generated by passengers who stay before/after the cruise is not accounted for in your numbers, either. But, I'll play your little game and use 2019 numbers.  And, using the percentages you quote (which isn't the actual revenue numbers for the cruise lines), let's peg NCL at 10% 

 

DIRECT revenues to FL from the cruise industry overall would have been $9B.  That does not take into account indirect numbers like hotel stays, restaurant revenue, sundry purchases, transport, etc as they relate to people flowing into the FL ports for their cruise.

 

Using the debatable 10% number you quote, that means FL would LOSE $900M-$1B in direct revenue from NCL.  

 

Who's going to miss that amount of money?  Pocket change!

 

Not going to debate you any more.  NCL has taken the lead to sail safely, with or without Florida's help.  Regardless of how it's downplayed, the lost revenue in FL by refusing to let NCL require 100% COVID vaccination proof is very significant.

[graphicguy]

12 hours ago, RunBikeCruiseDC said:

So, the other cruise lines are NOT requiring vaccines?  Or they just haven't mentioned it yet?  I thought vaccines are required for all selling (non-US ports).

The governor of Florida stated he wouldn't allow the cruise lines to ask for proof of those who had the COVID vaccine administered to them.  So, there's no way for the cruise lines in FL to prove the CDC's requirements for COVID Vaccines in order to sail.

[GonzoWCS]

3 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

The governor of Florida stated he wouldn't allow the cruise lines to ask for proof of those who had the COVID vaccine administered to them.  So, there's no way for the cruise lines in FL to prove the CDC's requirements for COVID Vaccines in order to sail.

None,  Nada, Never...  🙂

[cscurlock]

1 hour ago, GonzoWCS said:

None,  Nada, Never...  🙂

I guess cruises out of Florida will have to follow the unvaccinated path and do the test voyages and have all the restrictions that go with that you know masks, quarantine facilities and port agreements for approval to dock if there's an outbreak.   So there is a path although it will be more money and more restrictive.  I'll take the unvaccinated non mask cruise.   

[graphicguy]

True...go the masked, quarantine, distancing, etc route.  Or, go the 100% vaccine route and be free to enjoy the cruise.  Choices are good.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

2020 is the year that skewed this information.  Plus, given NCL is coming out of the Caribbean sailings by bypassing FL in favor of Jamaica, will give them a revenue advantage in that area.  Plus, the revenue generated by passengers who stay before/after the cruise is not accounted for in your numbers, either. But, I'll play your little game and use 2019 numbers.  And, using the percentages you quote (which isn't the actual revenue numbers for the cruise lines), let's peg NCL at 10% 

 

DIRECT revenues to FL from the cruise industry overall would have been $9B.  That does not take into account indirect numbers like hotel stays, restaurant revenue, sundry purchases, transport, etc as they relate to people flowing into the FL ports for their cruise.

 

Using the debatable 10% number you quote, that means FL would LOSE $900M-$1B in direct revenue from NCL.  

 

Who's going to miss that amount of money?  Pocket change!

 

Not going to debate you any more.  NCL has taken the lead to sail safely, with or without Florida's help.  Regardless of how it's downplayed, the lost revenue in FL by refusing to let NCL require 100% COVID vaccination proof is very significant.

 

 

My mother always told me to assume the good in people so I'm going to assume that you are genuinely trying to help people, but are just really confused. 

 

You wrote: "But, NCL is coming out of the gate 1st in the Caribbean from Jamaica.  So, they'll be able to realize revenue in the Caribbean given they've been planning to sail in the Caribbean first". This is incorrect. NCL is coming out of the gate 3rd in the Caribbean. They might be first from Jamaica, but both Celebrity (from St. Maartin) and Royal Caribbean (From Bahamas and Bermuda) have cruises starting in June. A full two months before NCL will sail from Jamaica and the DR. In the grand scheme of things who 'comes out of the gate 1st' is irrelevant, but since you keep making this point over and over I thought you may want to know that Celebrity and Royal won that race.

 

You wrote: "Regardless of how it's downplayed, the lost revenue in FL by refusing to let NCL require 100% COVID vaccination proof is very significant." This is also incorrect. There hasn't been a dime of lost revenue in Florida (yet). IF other cruise lines start sailing from Florida and NCL doesn't (which is highly unlikely), then there will be lost revenue to Florida. Until then, this is a lot of squawking. 

 

You also wrote "But, I'll play your little game and use 2019 numbers.  And, using the percentages you quote (which isn't the actual revenue numbers for the cruise lines), let's peg NCL at 10%." The part about 2020 numbers being skewed doesn't make sense to me, I thought all cruises stopped in Q120. If you have data to support that NCL holds a higher than 10% market share from Florida, or that NCL guests spend more in Florida than their counterparts, please share.  Until then the best data I see suggests that NCL has approximately 10% of the market (which includes revenue generated). 

 

Now, where you are correct is that if NCL doesn't sail from Florida once other cruise lines resume Florida departures,  then Florida will see lost revenue from NCL. I never suggested otherwise. But it is unlikely that Florida will receive 25%-33% lost revenue if NCL never comes back because, as I pointed out earlier, NCL operates with less than 10% of the market base. Will it hurt Florida? Of course. 

 

You seem to think that NCL  is going to require 100% vaccinations after the initial start up period. Even  NCL has only committed to 100% vaccination through October. Do you think that NCL can continue to operate requiring 100% vaccinations and just dismiss 30-40% of their customers (the estimation of people who won't be vaccinated)? That is just plain silly. 

 

Cruising from the USA will resume with whatever the CDC guidelines are at that time. I do expect that the Conditions to sail will be amended, but even so,  NCL is not in any position to eliminate itself from the Florida market. They will play ball. They must. Again, read the financials.

 

 

 

[BirdTravels]

16 hours ago, harkinmr said:

No other cruise line has made a commitment to sail with vaccinated passengers and crew as of yet.  NCL only.  Vaccines are not required by the CDC. 

On our cruise, Royal requires that all adults be vaccinated. At the time the established the policy, vaccines for teens were not available. We’ll see what the final policy is next week. 

[harkinmr]

14 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

On our cruise, Royal requires that all adults be vaccinated. At the time the established the policy, vaccines for teens were not available. We’ll see what the final policy is next week. 

My comment relates to US sailings.  RCL has still not publicly committed to vaccinated sailings from the US.  Neither has Celebrity, Carnival, Holland America or Princess.  Have no idea what they're all waiting for.  Well, I do, but it is such a weak excuse to be afraid of Florida.

Edited May 15, 2021 by harkinmr

[BermudaBound2014]

3 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

My comment relates to US sailings.  RCL has still not publicly committed to vaccinated sailings from the US.  Neither has Celebrity, Carnival, Holland America or Princess.  Have no idea what they're all waiting for.  Well, I do, but it is such a weak excuse to be afraid of Florida.

 

Has NCL agreed to sail with 100% vaccination past October? If so, I must have missed it. The way I remember it (and I could be wrong); was that NCL proposed 100% vaccination from the USA only IF they could sail by July 1st. The CDC hasn't even responded to that proposal. Unless they have committed to sailing from the USA w/ 100% vaccination past October, it doesn't really mean anything since every cruise line is waiting until the Conditions to Sail expires to see what the new requirements will be to sail from the USA.