Diving age discrimination

[Culbles]

I just wanted to report that Holland America Line and Dive Friends Bonaire partner to participate in age discrimination for scuba divers. I took my wife and grandson an a 10 day cruise from Ft. Lauderdale, FL through the Antilles to Bonaire, Curacao, and Aruba and back to Ft. Lauderdale. The cruise went well and we did have fun but in Bonaire, Holland America is partnered with Dive Friends Bonaire and they refused to let me scuba dive because I am over 65. I am a Master Diver with hundreds of dives in many environments and have been diving for over 20 years. I am in good health and physical shape and have no physical or medical problems and take no medications. At the dive shop we did not get to examine my medical conditions because once they saw my age that was the end of the trip. I could not dive because I am over 65 with no other consideration, just age. That equates to "age discrimination". Had we known this prior to booking we would have booked with a different cruise line and dive shop. Bonaire itself does not have an age limit on scuba diving but Dive Friends Bonaire when partnered with Holland America Line does.

 

Beware

[sail7seas]

Any company can make any rules for safety they want.

You are very fit but not all over age 65 are. They are not in the business of evaluating

each person's health. A rule is a rule, is a rule........ We all know how litigious many people are these days and they'd rather offend one than defend in court against a giant law suit because they made an exception because 'they said they were very healthy'. But you likely know all this.

 

Of course, you were in a Dutch island on a Dutch Registered ship though headquartered in Seattle.

 

Sorry for your disappointment.

 

Thank the sue crazy society for such rules. :rolleyes:

Edited January 4, 2016 by sail7seas

[Sundagger]

It's not just HAL that is imposing age limits. A very quick search brought an article that stated that "the Royal Caribbean cruise line now has a maximum age and body weight for passengers taking dive trips through its vendors. "According to [snip], there are no restrictions; however, the cruise line will not let you book if you are too 'old.' The age limit ranges from 60 to 80, depending upon the country."

[VMax1700]

I don't think an age limit is discrimination. Minimum or maximum ages, weights etc are there to protect all.

Anyway, I checked the HAL site for excursions in Bonaire and there are three dive excursions. All three list minimum and maximum ages clearly. One even lists a maximum weight, so, is this discrimination as well?:rolleyes:

Edited January 4, 2016 by VMax1700

[G&G]

I would suggest that in the future arrange independent diving on your own. Almost every island in the Caribbean has both dive and snorkel tours that are not associated with cruise lines.

[Kamloops50]

You'll many tours have limitations on them. Alaska strictly enforces a weight limitation on Helicopter and float plane tours. They surcharge if over a given weight.

[chengkp75]

Irregardless of whether this is considered to be discrimination in the US, the fact of the matter is that the excursion is taking place outside the US, so our laws do not count. While HAL is based in Seattle, it is incorporated in Curacao, so it is not required to meet US anti-discrimination laws, and I have no idea what the anti-discrimination laws of Bonaire are.

[Tom O.]

Age discrimination is a common practice throughout the world. It is illegal in the U.S. and several other 1st world countries, but is perfectly legal in the rest of the world. In many countries you can't even rent a car if you are over 70.

This is unfortunate.

I believe the actual source of the discrimination are the insurance companies that insure activities such as diving.

I am sure that HAL has very little say in these matters. The diving company (or zip line, snorkeling, horseback riding, etc., companies) make these rules because their insurers require them. And it is not illegal, because you are not in the U.S.

[canadianbear]

I'm so sorry you didn't get to do the dive. It's very disappointing when you arrive there expecting to dive.

 

Is there a dive section on CC? If so, perhaps just post there for information for anyone else that may run into this.

 

I know several years ago when our son was going on a helicopter/glacier excursion he noticed the weight restrictions. (didn't affect him but it opened our eyes up to look for restrictions).

Edited January 4, 2016 by canadianbear
sp

[CHOPPERTESTER]

What was the age of the pilots that flew you to FLL?

 

Age discrimination in the US is not illegal.

 

Did you get the "over 55" discount for your cruise?

 

Sorry about you missing your excursion.

Edited January 4, 2016 by CHOPPERTESTER

[Boytjie]

Is there a dive section on CC? If so, perhaps just post there for information for anyone else that may run into this.

 

Yes, there is: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=40

 

A quick search there showed that it is not just on HAL that cruise lines may have an age limit for scuba and even snorkeling.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Boytjie

[joepeka]

I just wanted to report that Holland America Line and Dive Friends Bonaire partner to participate in age discrimination for scuba divers. I took my wife and grandson an a 10 day cruise from Ft. Lauderdale, FL through the Antilles to Bonaire, Curacao, and Aruba and back to Ft. Lauderdale. The cruise went well and we did have fun but in Bonaire, Holland America is partnered with Dive Friends Bonaire and they refused to let me scuba dive because I am over 65. I am a Master Diver with hundreds of dives in many environments and have been diving for over 20 years. I am in good health and physical shape and have no physical or medical problems and take no medications. At the dive shop we did not get to examine my medical conditions because once they saw my age that was the end of the trip. I could not dive because I am over 65 with no other consideration, just age. That equates to "age discrimination". Had we known this prior to booking we would have booked with a different cruise line and dive shop. Bonaire itself does not have an age limit on scuba diving but Dive Friends Bonaire when partnered with Holland America Line does.

 

Beware

It sounds as if you booked the diving excursion through HAL, if so then I would have expected that there be some notice about the age requirement in the description of the excursion. Was there such a notice? If not, then you probably have a legitimate gripe with HAL for that omission but the tour operator, unfortunately, is within their rights (likely dictated by insurance) in having the age restriction. FYI, I'm +65 and in really good health so I can empathize with you.

[sail7seas]

I don't think an age limit is discrimination. Minimum or maximum ages, weights etc are there to protect all.

Anyway, I checked the HAL site for excursions in Bonaire and there are three dive excursions. All three list minimum and maximum ages clearly. One even lists a maximum weight, so, is this discrimination as well?:rolleyes:

 

It sounds as if you booked the diving excursion through HAL, if so then I would have expected that there be some notice about the age requirement in the description of the excursion. Was there such a notice? If not, then you probably have a legitimate gripe with HAL for that omission but the tour operator, unfortunately, is within their rights (likely dictated by insurance) in having the age restriction. FYI, I'm +65 and in really good health so I can empathize with you.

 

 

 

VMax stated the description of the excursion clearly stated age restrictions.

 

[Typhoon1]

Safety first.

[joepeka]

VMax stated the description of the excursion clearly stated age restrictions.

 

 

Then it appears the OP overlooked that (as I overlooked VMax's post) and he really has no legitimate complaint. ;)

Edited January 4, 2016 by joepeka

[kazu]

LIfe is full of disappointments, but as the wise man said - read carefully.

 

There's are restrictions on many tours - some involve weight, some age and some other factors.

 

I don't think it is so much discrimination as the fact that there are general "safety" precautions that they are taking.

 

The fact that you are a master diver isn't going to make any difference if you are in the "not allowed" group.

 

The fact that you are a master diver makes me ask why you didn't arrange your own private dive where they knew the facts in advance - but I am a private tour person anyways. I do book HAL tours when the time is right and have several on my next cruise, but if the stars prevail correctly, we prefer private and I am sure if you had gone with this venue you would have been much happier.

 

Just a thought for the future and sorry you were disappointed.

[Tom O.]

I am a senior as well, and was curious about this issue, so I looked up U.S. Law, and found that the laws against age discrimination are aimed at age discrimination in the workplace. These laws do not have any bearing on age limitations imposed out side of the workplace.

Many age limits favor seniors. For example, retirement communities that require a minimum age of 55.

Apparently, an activity that requires physical ability that commonly is beyond the ability of senior citizens, can have a maximum age limit, just as any activity that is usually beyond the ability of a young person can have a minimum age limit (e.g. you must be 16 in order to drive a car).

Unfortunately, there was no way provided for the OP to show HAL that he had the ability to perform the dive, despite his age.

[ski ww]

Sorry this left a bad taste ref. your not allowed to dive. I also am a diver & over 65 so I know what you feel like. I guess in the future arrange a private dive excursion.

Allan

[KirkNC]

You'll many tours have limitations on them. Alaska strictly enforces a weight limitation on Helicopter and float plane tours. They surcharge if over a given weight.

 

Surcharge :eek: that's not good.

[KirkNC]

VMax stated the description of the excursion clearly stated age restrictions.

 

 

Yea I was more sympathetic until I saw that post. Having worked as a dive master for a number of years I understand why they would have both a minimum and maximum age. It helps minimize the risk.

[serendipity1499]

I just wanted to report that Holland America Line and Dive Friends Bonaire partner to participate in age discrimination for scuba divers. I took my wife and grandson an a 10 day cruise from Ft. Lauderdale, FL through the Antilles to Bonaire, Curacao, and Aruba and back to Ft. Lauderdale. The cruise went well and we did have fun but in Bonaire, Holland America is partnered with Dive Friends Bonaire and they refused to let me scuba dive because I am over 65. I am a Master Diver with hundreds of dives in many environments and have been diving for over 20 years. I am in good health and physical shape and have no physical or medical problems and take no medications. At the dive shop we did not get to examine my medical conditions because once they saw my age that was the end of the trip. I could not dive because I am over 65 with no other consideration, just age. That equates to "age discrimination". Had we known this prior to booking we would have booked with a different cruise line and dive shop. Bonaire itself does not have an age limit on scuba diving but Dive Friends Bonaire when partnered with Holland America Line does.

 

Beware

 

Unfortunately you probably will find age restrictions on all the dive companies which service all the cruise lines only because their insurance policies dictate these rules..

 

I sympathize with you but have seen age restrictions throughout the world when we've travelled including being able to rent a car & acquiring travel medical insurance for my DH who is over 80..

[kelleherdl]

Being a certified diver who will be over 65 for our Southern Caribbean cruise in 2017 I do empathize. I am intending to dive the A,B,C's. It will be my first dive there. I will need to arrange in advance with an alternate dive operator. I do prefer to book excursions through HAL, but I guess this one will be on my own. I will definitely check with my local dive shop to get things arranged in advance.

 

Thanks OP for highlighting this issue. I have always noted things like weight limits. I will now look carefully for things like age as well.

 

Just an aside, can't a poster type a post with frustration without being castigated. Yes, further research would have identified the limitations for that particular excursion and OP would have been saved the significant disappointment. I agree the level of upset was a bit extreme and was misplaced toward HAL, but ......

 

Dennis

[sail7seas]

KrikNC

Yea I was more sympathetic until I saw that post. Having worked as a dive master for a number of years I understand why they would have both a minimum and maximum age. It helps minimize the risk.

 

 

 

I agree that post clarified the circumstance, for me.

 

If, as it appears, they stated age restrictions in the excursion description, there is no reason to blame HAL for him having gone on an excursion for which he would be denied.

We have to take some responsibility for ourselves and read full descriptions of what we are buying.

 

Edited January 5, 2016 by sail7seas

[CHOPPERTESTER]

Surcharge :eek: that's not good.

 

LOL. Do you know what the English translation of the French word surcharge is...

 

 

Wait for it...

 

 

"Overload"

[bshow]

OP, it stinks that you weren't able to dive. Thanks for the heads-up that might help others in future. Did you get a refund of the price you paid?