Interesting Development Re Service Dogs

[voljeep]

and you're paying double as a 'solo' traveler in a cabin ... but hey, maybe you saved on the port taxes, fees, and the auto-grats ...

 

not sure how you'll handle any travel insurance, huh??

[greenie082756]

Here is another topic that can go on and on.

I have several times seen dogs on a cruise. I could tell which were service dogs (they were either marked as such or you could tell the person needed assistance) and on one occasion I was pretty sure that the dog was "in transit" as the person seemed to be associated with the cruise company and had his wife and kids with him. The dog was of good size, probably around 20 - 30 lbs and medium height.

 

This was in the buffet area where I first saw this dog and at times they would walk him around the ship. Saw the dog on embarkation day and did not see it again after a few days. This was a 15 day cruise.

I am thinking it was a family dog, fairly large but well behaved.

 

I personally was a little intimidated as I have been attacked by a family dog which caused me to fall down and break my wrist. Before that ever happened I was not afraid of dogs at all as I grew up with dogs.

 

I like others am tired of those that try to get around the system and ruin it for others.  Just add this topic to the cruising list.

 

On the lighter side ~As far as needing assistance when traveling, I bring my husband for financial and emotional support😁

 

 

[bingobunny14]

i have known many people with service dogs and have a friend who trains labs to be guide dogs and never ever would someone threaten to set their dog on someone..

[Kartgv]

I believe part of the OP's post was a question about whether or not the screenshot of the incident should be sent to the cruise line.    I would, possibly start with the Captain's Club and ask how to contact whoever is in charge of Security.    There should be consequences for either one or both of the parties involved and it should be based on evidence, not hearsay.    

[TNTLAMB]

3 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

No one said anything to the contrary.  But you seem to think that a dog that is trained to detect a diabetic incident is "real" and a dog that is trained to detect an anxiety incident is not.  I assure you that both are "real", and neither of them is a yuppie Yorkie that is along for the ride.  Please stop thinking that anxiety isn't a real issue or that there is no such thing as a dog that is trained to address the issue.  Nobody here is suggesting that "any old dog" counts.  Go back and see what I actually posted. ("The issue here is how does the cruise line differentiate between an actual emotional support dog that provides a real, tangible service, and a pet who gets on board because the person lies?)   I am talking about dogs that are specifically trained to deal with anxiety.  If you suffered from a social disorder that could be addressed either by a trained dog or pills 4 times a day, which would you select? 

 

Jimmy is correct here a psychiatric service dog is NOT the same as an "emotional support" animal. These dogs are trained in a number of very specific tasks:

 

• detecting signs of an anxiety attack before it happens
• fetching medication or water during an anxiety attack
• bringing someone to help the person in distress
• preventing strangers from approaching the person in distress
• calming a person down during an anxiety attack through distraction, such as licking their face or providing a paw
• providing deep pressure therapy to soothe their owner
• retrieving a phone during an anxiety attack
• reminding a person to take their medication at certain times of the day
• performing safety checks of rooms or turning the lights on for people with PTSD

An emotional support animal does none of those things and is not "protected" by the ADA.  (not that the ADA carries much weight on a foreign flagged Princess ship) As another poster said there is no doubt as to the difference between a service animal and a pet/emotional support animal. But what I would suggest of a person is suffering from anxiety enough that they require an emotional support animal, perhaps they should choose another vacation style than a cruise. The law considers ESAs as pets.  ESAs do not have the same legal protections that service animals do. However, they do have some protections, such as an exemption from no-pet housing rules. The close quarters small cabins, high density population etc etc on a cruise is likely not good for folks who benefit from an ESA with or without their pet. Before the flame start flowing I DO GET IT. We had to take a break from cruising for a few years with a coupla foster kiddos we had, who did great at  home and many circumstances, but a cruise? No way.  Same thing with myself I used to go backpacking every summer. With cane okay, but the a mobility device. not so okay. Sometimes we have to make choices. If you can't travel without your pet, then maybe you shouldn't. 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by TNTLAMB

[Laurie S.]

If she threatened to sic her dog on other passengers then she should have been immediately locked in her room (or better ship's jail) and then both removed from the ship at the next port.

[PrincessLuver]

3 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

No one said anything to the contrary.  But you seem to think that a dog that is trained to detect a diabetic incident is "real" and a dog that is trained to detect an anxiety incident is not.  I assure you that both are "real", and neither of them is a yuppie Yorkie that is along for the ride.  Please stop thinking that anxiety isn't a real issue or that there is no such thing as a dog that is trained to address the issue.  Nobody here is suggesting that "any old dog" counts.  Go back and see what I actually posted. ("The issue here is how does the cruise line differentiate between an actual emotional support dog that provides a real, tangible service, and a pet who gets on board because the person lies?)   I am talking about dogs that are specifically trained to deal with anxiety.  If you suffered from a social disorder that could be addressed either by a trained dog or pills 4 times a day, which would you select? 

 

CBD Infused Gummie Bears could meet the need of an ESA and pills all at the same time!...  🙂

[CZEE]

37 minutes ago, Kartgv said:

I believe part of the OP's post was a question about whether or not the screenshot of the incident should be sent to the cruise line.    I would, possibly start with the Captain's Club and ask how to contact whoever is in charge of Security.    There should be consequences for either one or both of the parties involved and it should be based on evidence, not hearsay.    

 

I called customer relations and sent them the screenshot.

 

Presumably, the OP has it for PTSD.

 

If the post isn't enough, there is a photo of the dog drinking champagne at the Captains Circle party. True service animals are unobtrusive, don't drink alcohol, or attack other passengers. Of course, the picture could just be staged.  Hopefully, someone with a seeing eye dog or a seizure dog wouldn't offer their dog champagne and expect it to be able to function. And the post could have just been written up in an inebriated state for effect.  Nevertheless threatening other passengers is unacceptable.

 

If the issue is as bad as portrayed in the post, since taken down, then security on the ship is well aware and has dealt with it.  Interesting that the animal had an "accident" on deck.

 

As a side note, a friend of mine's son has a medically necessary dog for seizures.  He had to get another dog after his dog was attacked by another dog while traveling.  Apparently, once these dogs fight, they are not useful for their intended purpose.  I didn't know that.  

[chengkp75]

As a note, PTSD dogs can be either "service animals" or "ESA", depending on what they do.  If the dog is trained to call attention to itself by licking or rubbing the person when that person exhibits stress, or by nudging the person away from potential stress, then it is a "service animal".  If the dog merely calms the PTSD by it's mere presence, then it is an ESA.

[CZEE]

9 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As a note, PTSD dogs can be either "service animals" or "ESA", depending on what they do.  If the dog is trained to call attention to itself by licking or rubbing the person when that person exhibits stress, or by nudging the person away from potential stress, then it is a "service animal".  If the dog merely calms the PTSD by it's mere presence, then it is an ESA.

 

So, how do companies distinguish?  Apparently, they can only ask a couple of questions.  It doesn't appear they will get a distinguishable answer, hence the proliferation of these animals everywhere.  

 

Since an airline allows mini horses as support animals, when will Princess.  I want one.  LOL

[JimmyVWine]

2 minutes ago, CZEE said:

So, how do companies distinguish?  Apparently, they can only ask a couple of questions.  It doesn't appear they will get a distinguishable answer, hence the proliferation of these animals everywhere.

This is really the point of my first post on this topic.  It is sometimes impossible to distinguish, and in certain situations, illegal to try.  So the way I see it, there are three possibilities that relate to PTSD:

1. A person really does have PTSD and travels with a certified service dog who performs all or most of the tasks laid out by TNTLAMB, and that dog produces positive results which allows the passenger to travel and see wonderful, far away places;
2. A person really does have PTSD and travels with a well-behaved emotional support dog who is not certified, but who produces positive results which allows the passenger to travel and see wonderful, far away places; and
3. A person lies about having PTSD, has a regular ol' pet dog, and uses deceit to bring that dog along while they travel and see wonderful, far away places.

From the looks of things, people are unanimous in their support of #1 and their disdain of #3.  What amazes me is why some people get so riled up about #2.  If the dog is well-behaved and produces positive results, why do we care about what others choose to do?  If an ESA allows someone to get out there and see the world, why would we want to be so selfish as to impose our will on that person and order them to remain a shut-in.  Seems mean-spirited and counterproductive, but that's just me.  I don't want to be in line at the buffet behind a smelly dog any more than I want to be behind somebody who just came from the gym and is all sweaty and gross.  Neither situation will kill me.  I'm an adult and thankfully do not have any disabilities that would prevent me from finding a proper coping strategy under either scenario.  

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, CZEE said:

 

So, how do companies distinguish?  Apparently, they can only ask a couple of questions.  It doesn't appear they will get a distinguishable answer, hence the proliferation of these animals everywhere.  

 

Since an airline allows mini horses as support animals, when will Princess.  I want one.  LOL

One of the questions they can ask is "what service is the animal trained to do?"  Saying, "he helps me with PTSD", isn't an answer.  If they say, "he recognizes my stress level, and nudges me to sit down in a quiet area" then the dog is performing a "service" and is a "service animal". The proliferation is due to business owners not wanting to have to fight both bad PR and court costs defending their actions, since in many cases they are still responsible for costs even if the suit is found to be frivolous.

 

Regarding mini horses, the DOJ has revised the requirements regarding mini horses as service animals, and there are additional assessments that can determine whether a mini horse is allowed in a facility, having to do with the horse's size, weight, and safety factors.  So, it is yet to be determined whether mini horses would be allowed on ships in accordance with SOLAS.

Edited November 12, 2019 by chengkp75

[scubacruiserx2]

43 minutes ago, CZEE said:

 

So, how do companies distinguish?  Apparently, they can only ask a couple of questions.  It doesn't appear they will get a distinguishable answer, hence the proliferation of these animals everywhere.  

 

Since an airline allows mini horses as support animals, when will Princess.  I want one.  LOL

 

Here you go

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by scubacruiserx2

[Cafedumonde]

I bet it is the same people who complain about kids (who will pay your social security and defend your freedoms in the military btw) who want to bring “comfort” dogs on board.  Zero regard for other people across the board.

[getting older slowly]

this is an interesting post.....

 

one thing... being a dog owner in the past.....

 

How does a dog cope with confines of a cruise ship..... 

Corridors, MDR, buffet, or any of the crowded areas. ??

 

Also I thing the big point the OP discussed was the point the person was going to get the dog to attack somebody.......omg

 

Cheers Don

[cruzysuzy]

8 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

See comments in red.

 

By the same token a passenger could experience severe anxiety from the presence of a dog (took my son years to get over that) or could suffer from medically significant allergies to dogs.  

[Coral]

6 minutes ago, cruzysuzy said:

 

By the same token a passenger could experience severe anxiety from the presence of a dog (took my son years to get over that) or could suffer from medically significant allergies to dogs.  

I have severe allergies to perfumes. I can't control what other wear and people wear a lot of perfume on cruises! One just has to adapt - same you would do in a store or a restaurant at home. There will always be allergies to things. And there will always be people who experience anxiety to (insert anything). It is life. We had a cruise where someone was dressed up as a clown and there was an adult who was afraid of clowns.

 

We had someone who said they were afraid of dogs who barked. I indicated that I had never heard our Service dog bark ever (again, very well trained). She was still afraid though there was no reason to be afraid.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Coral

[victory2020]

The interesting thing is that a real service dog will not be noticeable - they do not bark, have accidents or go through buffet lines with their owners. Another point is that a "comfort" dog that someone brings on for "anxiety" causes me anxiety because I am deathly afraid of dogs & have been bitten by one. My husband is also allergic to pet dander. So here's a situation where Princess is making one customer happy & upsetting two more. Apparently reasoned people have no rights.

[Coral]

23 minutes ago, getting older slowly said:

 

How does a dog cope with confines of a cruise ship..... 

Corridors, MDR, buffet, or any of the crowded areas. ??

They go through extensive training. These dogs have been on trains, planes, gone to restaurants, concerts, football games, church, etc....  They go to work or school with their partner and then everywhere else (doctor visits, games, everywhere). Part of their puppy home deals with their puppy raisers taking them everywhere. Then when they are old enough, they have extensive training with dog trainers. It really is amazing. They know when they are in their harness, they are working. Our dogs were probably on 25 cruises.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Coral

[Coral]

15 minutes ago, victory2020 said:

My husband is also allergic to pet dander. So here's a situation where Princess is making one customer happy & upsetting two more. Apparently reasoned people have no rights.

If you have ever had allergy tests - you will find that many are allergic to many things that you are exposed to daily. 

 

After my dog died (and I had dogs and cats my entire life), I found out I was allergic to both dogs and cats. Plus a list of many other things including mold, pollen, grass, weeds, variety of soaps, seafood, etc.... A lot of people are allergic to a lot of things we have to face daily. I don't ask someone eating seafood to move tables.

 

Glad there are companies out there that make Zyrtec and Allegra.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Coral

[Aus Traveller]

28 minutes ago, cruzysuzy said:

 

By the same token a passenger could experience severe anxiety from the presence of a dog (took my son years to get over that) or could suffer from medically significant allergies to dogs.  

I can relate to your son's anxiety. It took me many years to get over a dog attack that occurred when I was around seven years old. For many years any dog that came near would pick me out of a crowd to bark at. I believed the dog sensed my fear so I was fair game.  I still bear the physical scars, but got over the physiological ones many years ago. I'm glad your son has mastered his anxiety.

[Coral]

2 hours ago, CZEE said:

 

As a side note, a friend of mine's son has a medically necessary dog for seizures.  He had to get another dog after his dog was attacked by another dog while traveling.  Apparently, once these dogs fight, they are not useful for their intended purpose.  I didn't know that.  

It depends. Usually after a traumatic experience that the dog happens, the organization may bring the dog back for additional training and then will re-evaluate if the dog can do their job or not. If they can't - they won't go back into service.

 

A friend had a service dog and they were both on a bus that was involved in a bad accident. The dog had a difficult time focusing/working after that. They sent a trainer to my friend's location and assessed the situation. It was decided that the dog should go back to the school with the trainer for a few weeks of re-training. After that, the dog was returned and could work properly. Sort of like us, we can all get affected when something happens to us and we may need counseling or some adjustment in our life to get back to normal. Or maybe we can't return to our life as normal and in this situation, the dog could be retired.

[mamkmm2]

We have to deal with the ADA issue a lot because we are landlords.  Remember, the real issue here is "reasonable accommodations."  The ADA does not require landlords to widen doors, put in permanent ramps, lower or raise counter heights, put in bathrooms fixtures, etc.  As a landlord we do have to allow safe, temporary ramps that can be removed once a tenant leaves … at the cost of the tenant, not our cost.  We do have to allow the tenant to install fixtures … but not at our cost and the tenant must return the unit to us with the original hardware and undamaged at the end of their lease.  We do not have to widen doors, etc and the tenant must pay for any damage they do.  They cannot install anything that is permanent without our permission and they have to pay for it and cannot remove it when they leave.  We cannot ask them to prove their disability though most do through doctors notes at the very least.  Also, the changes the tenant is allowed to make cannot be unsafe … they have to pass all municipal codes.  So that temporary ramp has to be a real ramp and not just some jury rigged ramp a kid might use for jumping a skateboard.

 

In other words … reasonable accommodations.

 

The same is essentially true of people who utilize service animals.  A business has to make reasonable accommodations but they don't have to make structural changes to facilitate the accommodation.  The discussion between the lawyers is what constitutes reasonable accommodation regarding animals.  A cruise line does not HAVE to make it so you can leave the ship in various ports.  Especially if the country the port is in has rules of their own.  What is law in the passenger's home country may not be the law at foreign ports and no one is required to make accommodations and change laws.  Nor does a ship have to disregard existing health and safety codes.  What is the code for animals in the dining areas generally speaking for any restaurant?  Answer, a reasonable accommodation is to be made … which could mean that you are at a table outside or in the back and away from all other diners and away from the kitchen and serving areas.  

 

Then there is the issue of reasonable behavior and expectation of the service animal's handler.  Note that in the US animal cruelty is now a federal crime.  What constitutes animal cruelty.  I have heard the legal discussion taking place that putting an animal in a situation that is contrary to its purpose and training may be used against animal handlers mentioned in the OP.  

 

There are a lot of nuanced discussions taking place and bad owners and handlers are only going to make things more difficult for those with legitimate needs being fulfilled by service animals.

[CZEE]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Regarding mini horses, the DOJ has revised the requirements regarding mini horses as service animals, and there are additional assessments that can determine whether a mini horse is allowed in a facility, having to do with the horse's size, weight, and safety factors.  So, it is yet to be determined whether mini horses would be allowed on ships in accordance with SOLAS.

 

I was just kidding.  Used to have horses and trailered them all over the Western US.  My last one died this summer.  Logistics aside, traveling with a horse on an airplane is just not appealing. Even the little ones can pack a significant punch.  In fact, one of he worst horse accidents I witnessed was a mini stallion take its owner apart at a horse show.   It's fun to think about. It'd be even more fun to observe other folks' reactions.  

[Coral]

23 minutes ago, mamkmm2 said:

What is the code for animals in the dining areas generally speaking for any restaurant?  Answer, a reasonable accommodation is to be made … which could mean that you are at a table outside or in the back and away from all other diners and away from the kitchen and serving areas.  

Thankfully - we were almost always asked where "we" wanted to sit in the restaurant with my Mom's Seeing Eye dog. Most restaurants realized we wanted to be out of high traffic walking areas. I would not have tolerated being told we could only eat outside.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Coral