Toddler Death Law Suit Update

[brillohead]

2 hours ago, lovemylab said:

Perhaps nobody noticed?  When I'm on a cruise I pay very little attention to what other people are doing.

This.  

People are on vacation, their focus is on their own family/friends or their own personal enjoyment.  

We no longer live in a society where people-watching is a main source of entertainment.  Cell phones, social media, e-readers, video games, and music players result in people rarely even noticing if someone is even near them, let alone what those other people are doing.  

Watching the videos, nobody even turns a head to take notice of Chloe or Anello as they walk along or as he lifts them up.  Nobody said anything because everyone was doing their own thing.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

1 hour ago, TNcruising02 said:

Are they all claiming to be color blind and that NONE of them knew there were open windows in that area?  I wonder if there is video footage of either of the girl's parents at one of the windows.

What does color blind have to do with anything. The open window was clear. No matter what color you see it as. It is colored from not being colored. Open, clear. From what I heard when it started is that some people on the pier heard the girl screaming, looked up and saw her. Then down she came. Here is a bit of info. Green-weakness is the most common form of color blindness, says Dr. Lattman. Five percent of men have it. To them, yellow and green appear redder; and blue and violet look the same. So what color did he see. He did see a color. Does he have a drivers license?

[S.A.M.J.R.]

1 hour ago, TNcruising02 said:

Are they all claiming to be color blind and that NONE of them knew there were open windows in that area?  I wonder if there is video footage of either of the girl's parents at one of the windows.

Why would that matter?  They were in the WJ at the time of the accident.   It's immaterial whether the parents knew there were open windows.  

[TNcruising02]

20 minutes ago, twodaywonder said:

What does color blind have to do with anything. The open window was clear. No matter what color you see it as. It is colored from not being colored. Open, clear. From what I heard when it started is that some people on the pier heard the girl screaming, looked up and saw her. Then down she came. Here is a bit of info. Green-weakness is the most common form of color blindness, says Dr. Lattman. Five percent of men have it. To them, yellow and green appear redder; and blue and violet look the same. So what color did he see. He did see a color. Does he have a drivers license?

I agree.  I know color had nothing to do with it.  One of my sons has green/red color blindness and I can assure you he can tell when a window is open, even if there was no tinting involved.  He can still see colors, but they appear as a different shade or some similar colors appear as the same shade.  An open window would not look exactly like a tinted window to him.  The GF is claiming the open window looked EXACTLY like the tinted window. That excuse is ridiculous.  He leaned out the window, so of course he knew it was open.

My comment was made because surely the parents saw the open windows while they were in that area.  I was being sarcastic when I said that maybe they were all color blind.

I do think that people off of the ship must have seen him dangling her.  It was originally reported in Spanish that he was playing games, so maybe he was lifting her up and down and someone saw it.  

Edited January 30, 2020 by TNcruising02

[tlund]

After looking at the video from the side, I just keep going back to the initial lean over the railing.  It appears that from his stomach up was over the railing and not at a small angle.  The argument that he didn't know the window was opened doesn't hold water.  If he leaned over first before he picked her up, he would have hit his head on an unopened window.   Color blind or not, feeling air or hearing noise or not, the lack of a bump of the head is telling.  I've been on that ship. I've stood at those windows.  I'm 5'4" and if I bent over the way he did, my face or head would make contact with an unopened window.  I call BS.

[bobmacliberty]

10 hours ago, rusty nut said:

Okay, pay attention, this is a bit tricky.

 

Freedom of the Seas

No color

 

Which windows are open?

 

 

Cute, but that's not at all what it's like being colorblind.  As I explained, it's not a complete lack of color and converting to a B/W picture doesn't apply at all (unless you are totally colorblind).  A better simulation may have been to tweak the hue of the blue in the water in the open window until it looks similar to the blue water in the closed window.  Do I think the GF's claim of being color blind impacted his ability to determine if the window is BS?  Almost certainly.  Do I think a jury could be convinced that it's possible?  Absolutely.

 

I'm an Engineer with a Masters degree... about 90% logical and 10% emotional.  I've twice been called to be on a jury and was dismissed both times.  Both were cases where the plaintiff's lawyer wanted emotion rather than logic.  A different case could have been just the opposite.  I'd guess that the message for this case would be VERY simple (oversimplified).  Royal left a window open without enough protection, and a baby fell through the window to her death.  They'll dig up inspection reports showing other problems on Royal ships.  They will find people who testify that they suffered an accident due to Royal incompetence or did not feel safe for some reason (see...this type of irresponsible behavior is a pattern for Royal!).   They will downplay the GF's role and/or make him seem like a victim.  They will do whatever they can to try to show that Royal doesn't really care about people and is just a huge, money grabbing, corporate monstrosity (what many people here claim daily!).  Royal's lawyers would argue against all of that, and put the blame squarely on the indefensable acts of the GF, but who knows with a jury.

 

Settlement with no admission of guilt and agreement that neither Royal nor the family will disclose the details.  No precedent set.  No additional protective activities required by Royal.  Simplest, cheapest way for Royal to get this behind them with no further consequences.  Do I like it?  No.  Will it happen?  That would be my bet.  Will we ever know the details of the outcome?  Probably not.

 

 

[TNcruising02]

20 minutes ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

Why would that matter?  They were in the WJ at the time of the accident.   It's immaterial whether the parents knew there were open windows.  

The parents are claiming that Royal is negligent for having open windows in a children's play area.  If one of the parents stood next to an open window, yet still left their toddler in that area, then they had to have  believed it was safe.  They are acting as if they had no idea there were any open windows in that area.

[TNcruising02]

3 minutes ago, tlund said:

After looking at the video from the side, I just keep going back to the initial lean over the railing.  It appears that from his stomach up was over the railing and not at a small angle.  The argument that he didn't know the window was opened doesn't hold water.  If he leaned over first before he picked her up, he would have hit his head on an unopened window.   Color blind or not, feeling air or hearing noise or not, the lack of a bump of the head is telling.  I've been on that ship. I've stood at those windows.  I'm 5'4" and if I bent over the way he did, my face or head would make contact with an unopened window.  I call BS.

When I watched the video that was from behind that showed him walking up to the railing and leaning so much that his gut was on top of the railing, it looked as if he was looking down at the pier.

[in rod we trust]

cruise ships have a responsibility  to keep passengers safe no matter what, just like any other corporation has..     could of been any other drunken nut falling out of the same window. 

[TNcruising02]

11 minutes ago, bobmacliberty said:

 

Cute, but that's not at all what it's like being colorblind.  As I explained, it's not a complete lack of color and converting to a B/W picture doesn't apply at all (unless you are totally colorblind).  A better simulation may have been to tweak the hue of the blue in the water in the open window until it looks similar to the blue water in the closed window.  Do I think the GF's claim of being color blind impacted his ability to determine if the window is BS?  Almost certainly.  Do I think a jury could be convinced that it's possible?  Absolutely.

 

There are a couple problems with the claim that the tinted window looked the same as the open window because of the blue water behind it.  First, if water could be seen from the window, then so could the sky and clouds.  The open window could not possibly look the same as the tinted window.  Secondly, is that the GF was 18 inches from the open window for at least 30 seconds.  At 18 or so inches away, there is no way it could look the same as a tinted window, never mind the obvious breeze.  Anyone with common sense will see the guy is lying.

[Coralc]

6 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

There are a couple problems with the claim that the tinted window looked the same as the open window because of the blue water behind it.  First, if water could be seen from the window, then so could the sky and clouds.  The open window could not possibly look the same as the tinted window.  Secondly, is that the GF was 18 inches from the open window for at least 30 seconds.  At 18 or so inches away, there is no way it could look the same as a tinted window, never mind the obvious breeze.  Anyone with common sense will see the guy is lying.

 

The ship was docked in San Juan. Freedom hadn't even departed yet. There was a view of concrete and buildings. 

[bobmacliberty]

6 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

There are a couple problems with the claim that the tinted window looked the same as the open window because of the blue water behind it.  First, if water could be seen from the window, then so could the sky and clouds.  The open window could not possibly look the same as the tinted window.  Secondly, is that the GF was 18 inches from the open window for at least 30 seconds.  At 18 or so inches away, there is no way it could look the same as a tinted window, never mind the obvious breeze.  Anyone with common sense will see the guy is lying.

Not to mention that HE PUT HIS HEAD THROUGH THE OPEN WINDOW. My point is not that colorblindness is a legitimate excuse but rather that a lawyer could make it seem plausible. All they need to do is cast a few seeds of doubt. 

[tinkertwo]

25 minutes ago, bobmacliberty said:

 

Settlement with no admission of guilt and agreement that neither Royal nor the family will disclose the details.  No precedent set.  No additional protective activities required by Royal.  Simplest, cheapest way for Royal to get this behind them with no further consequences.  Do I like it?  No.  Will it happen?  That would be my bet.  Will we ever know the details of the outcome?  Probably not.

 

 

I think that would be a wrong statement.  It would be reported, and make no mistake it will be if that happens, that the case was settled with a non disclosure clause.  That in itself sets a precedent.  It tells everyone its open season on Royal.  They will have a ton of law suits for frivolous things.  Royal will not allow that to happen if they are not 100 percent at fault.  It's not like someone who slipped on a wet floor.  That would be settled.  

Now that's just my thought and it's no better than yours.  Only time will tell but my money goes towards Royal not settling.  

[brillohead]

12 minutes ago, tinkertwo said:

Only time will tell but my money goes towards Royal not settling.  

I truly hope this is what happens.... frivolous lawsuits have turned the USA into a mess of warning labels and increased costs.

Someone has to put their foot down.  I truly hope that Royal will be that someone.

[lovemylab]

35 minutes ago, in rod we trust said:

cruise ships have a responsibility  to keep passengers safe no matter what, just like any other corporation has..     could of been any other drunken nut falling out of the same window. 

 

Nobody fell out of a window.  The grandfather lifted the child up, dangled her outside the window and dropped her.

[Brisbane41]

If I can add to the colour blindness what I have just looked up is some people are red-green blind, others are blue-yellow blind. With that in mind the best way to show what they see is to remove those colours from a photo.

 

The first photo is normal full range of colours.

 

The second photo is the same photo with blue and yellow removed. What appears yellow are shades of red which are still in.

 

The third photo is red and green removed. 

 

Even if his sense of sight resembled anything like this at all it pretty much proves that he is lying about his alleged colour blindness preventing him from knowing. I am sure Royal Caribbean has the best eye experts available money can buy to testify about this.

[Two Wheels Only]

11 minutes ago, Brisbane41 said:

Even if his sense of sight resembled anything like this at all it pretty much proves that he is lying about his alleged colour blindness preventing him from knowing. I am sure Royal Caribbean has the best eye experts available money can buy to testify about this.

 

Anello would claim that he didn't see the pool...after he sat down and dunked his feet in the pool...because he is colorblind.

[mitsugirly]

I just read this and not sure where this info came from or even if it is reported right but...

 

According to the family, the little girl had run over to a wall of windows on the side of the cruise ship, as Anello followed closely behind. Chloe was used to banging on the glass partition while watching her older brother's hockey games, and Anello could tell she wanted to get a closer look at what was outside. So her grandfather lifted her up and placed her on the windowsill. The only problem was, the window pane he thought was directly in front of her had been removed, and seconds later, she slipped from his grip to the pier below.

 

This was an article that involved what RCCL doctor reported upon finding Chloe on the dock and after talking to Arnello on the ship.

 

It was just the first time I had read that he lifted her to "get a closer look at what was outside" and that he "placed her on the window sill". It could be all fabrication of what the reporters are pulling from various places. But, I just thought it seems to be the closest thing to what a lot of people are thinking happened. Also, saying "according to the family", which we all know isn't factual because the family wasn't there and it was just Arnello. Unless they are just repeating the story from what they've heard.

[Two Wheels Only]

2 minutes ago, mitsugirly said:

I just read this and not sure where this info came from or even if it is reported right but...

 

Early reports had some truth, some speculation, some wishful thinking, and some lies.

 

People have been working their way through it since July.

[mitsugirly]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but you can find the entire court documents of the filing for the lawsuit online. It does give a timeframe and what was happening (according to the family of course).

 

On or about July 7, 2019, at approximately 1:15 p.m., the family boarded the vessel in San Juan, Puerto Rico for a 7-night Southern Caribbean cruise. Upon boarding, the family went to the Windjammer Café for lunch. After lunch, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand and Chloe changed into swimsuits, and at approximately 2:40 p.m., they began to play in the pool(s) aboard the ship.

At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs. Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, his 18-month-old granddaughter, as shown below.

At all times material, Mr. Anello was closely supervising Chloe as she played in the

kids’ water park.

 

I brought up this "last picture" awhile ago, that they had shown of her, which was a picture of Chloe at the H2O water park and thought that maybe this was part of the reason GP could have lost his grip on her (because she was wet), but I hadn't seen anything that actually said (or showed) that she was actually IN the water getting wet...until reading the full Wrongful Death Complaint and demand for jury trial court papers.

Edited January 30, 2020 by mitsugirly

[Germancruiser]

Whatever sceanario is the right one- only the grandpa know for sure- if he does not suffer from some kind of shell shock.

Maybe he would have liked to show the little one what the view was- maybe he did no see that the window was open. Maybe she just slipped through his fingers. The fact remains- nothing of that would have been the fault of the cruise line!

One moment of not paying attention- and a whole life can change. Happens all the time!

 

[SherriZ366]

12 hours ago, rimmit said:

In any other lawsuit I would normally agree.  However,  the ramifications of this lawsuit are huge,  not just for RCI now but for any business and the future of RCI.  If this lawsuit wins,  it sets a future precedent that RCI is responsible for any act of stupidity that causes injury.  While the short term cost is less if they settle, the long term cost would be huge.  RCI would have to spend billions in making ships not just safe but “idiot proof.”  We are no longer limited to just windows, but balconies, staircases, and any other object on a ship that can cause injury.   Someone could cut themselves with a steak knife in the dining room,  claim it is sharper than industry wide standards and sue for that.   The lawsuits would never end.

 

It is never a question of “Who do you think Is right?”   In this case the jury will most likely be asked, “Did RCI maintain industry wide standards regarding the window? (I.e. height, railing, etc.). Was RCI negligent?”  It is on the burden of the plaintiff to prove that RCI deviated from standard practice regarding windows on a cruise ship.

 

Only time will tell,  and they could settle,  but given what’s at stake and the fact they have the public on their side leads me to believe they won’t.

I agree.  

A good example of a lawsuit that could succeed if RCCL settles in this case was on Allure a few months ago.  A young woman climbed over the railing of her balcony and stood on the ledge with her friend who was inside the balcony holding her legs.  The ship was moving.   If the ship had lurched, she could have fallen off.  Another cruiser took a picture and met with security.  She and her friend were removed from the ship at the next port and i think they are banned for life from cruising on RCCL.  

[SherriZ366]

9 hours ago, retiredgram said:

Apparently she does not think he is responsible.  IMO, they have not faced the facts and do not want him to take responsibility.

I would be yelling at him, why did you do this, but maybe they have asked him and he just keeps saying I did not know.

Also, someone explain to me that has knowledge, why are the parents giving interviews if this case is going to be litigated. They are having a public trial before the case actually goes to court or is settled. (should not be settled, IMO)

They are giving interviews because the lawyer is trying the case in the media.  

[luckybecky]

Sorry if this has already been discussed and I missed it...

 

Just wondering if there have been any reports about this family, and specifically the step grandfather, having cruised before? Are they novice cruisers? Or have they been on other ships where they might have encountered very similar ship design as far as the windows are concerned?

[Brisbane41]

55 minutes ago, luckybecky said:

Sorry if this has already been discussed and I missed it...

 

Just wondering if there have been any reports about this family, and specifically the step grandfather, having cruised before? Are they novice cruisers? Or have they been on other ships where they might have encountered very similar ship design as far as the windows are concerned?

I asked the same thing and the post got deleted by admin for some unknown reason.

 

I am sure when the time comes Royal Caribbean will have that information available to them. They know if he has been with them previously, they know if his account purchased any alcohol or if anyone in his party purchased any alcohol and if so how much. There will also be the witnesses nearby who can testify about what the conditions were like, could they tell the windows open. Then there are the crew members. Royal Caribbean will have at their disposal a long list of possible witnesses.