Solvency of Cruise Lines

[RJ2002]

1 hour ago, ddsun1 said:

I imagine there will be many levels of protection in place planning forward, both for the cruise lines and for the safety of all the guests.

 

Agree, no cruise line will want one of its ships be the "next one" that is turned away from port after port.  More rigorous screening at embarkation seems very likely.  We will all likely become quite familiar with those forehead thermometers, at a minimum.

[Dolebludger]

I guess I missed the part where the medical statements for guests over 70 was repealed, of never really adopted. In any event, at age 76, I’m glad it’s gone! It would seem that such a requirement for us guests would violate the ADA, or age discrimination laws. Or perhaps both. I’ve been on recent cruises where guests under 50 appeared to be in worse physical shape than me! And the stats for my county on Covid19 positive cases showed that the highest percentage was in the 20-29 age group. Such a requirement for ALL guests, regardless of age, would be an understandable defensive move. But distinction by age is not. Covid19 does not age discriminate! And I will not book on any in the future tha requires any medical evidence of me than they require of all guests, regardless of age.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Dolebludger

[rallydave]

45 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

I guess I missed the part where the medical statements for guests over 70 was repealed, of never really adopted. In any event, at age 76, I’m glad it’s gone! It would seem that such a requirement for us guests would violate the ADA, or age discrimination laws. Or perhaps both. I’ve been on recent cruises where guests under 50 appeared to be in worse physical shape than me! And the stats for my county on Covid19 positive cases showed that the highest percentage was in the 20-29 age group. Such a requirement for ALL guests, regardless of age, would be an understandable defensive move. But distinction by age is not. Covid19 does not age discriminate! And I will not book on any in the future tha requires any medical evidence of me than they require of all guests, regardless of age.

While I understand that the form will be a big problem to those of us over 70 and don't believe any Doctors will risk their Licenses or Malpractice Insurance and sign them,  even if the Age Discriminations act applied to cruise ships which I don't think they do as they apply mostly to employment, they would not and neither would ADA apply to Foreign Flagged Ships owned by Foreign Companies.

 

Just look at the latest stimulus plan for about $2T where cruise lines did not get any money as they are almost all Foreign Companies registered and incorporated offshore from the US  with US Headquarters.   Really sad but, true that the US laws you are talking about only pertain to US Companies in the US.  They might apply when ships are docked in US Ports but, not anyplace on Planet Earth.

 

After CLIA is the group that offered this form to Vice President Pence and RCL is still currently applying the same or similar form to their cruise lines and if age discrimination were applicable hardly think the RCL would be requiring the form at least for now.

Edited April 8, 2020 by rallydave

[sanne]

Having a temp is not always an early symptom of COVID19. Studies have shown many people carrying the virus are a symptomatic. The cruise industry has a lot to work through before cruising can begin again. Not the least insurance issues for the cruise company and personal travel insurance

[pingpong1]

Okay - Accepting on blind and unconditional faith that everything that all the wise posters are saying (above) is true - Are we all going to know exactly what the "final rules" are for being allowed to board any ship (recently visited countries, body temp on boarding day, immunization records, medical history, ongoing/present health issues, etc., etc.)  BEFORE we're required to plunk down a multi-Thousand Dollar final payment.....5-6 months before the cruise actually begins?  Just wondering?

 

Everyone does realize(I hope), that there are several cruises that have NOT been cancelled (yet), and that are scheduled for departure in Sep/Oct/Nov/Dec timeframe of THIS YEAR, and that final payments will be coming due on those cruises within the next couple of months, right??!!  Could we be "just finding out" what (new - and unable to meet) health requirement might be require for boarding....AFTER the final payment has been made, and with no fully compensated financial recourse?  That would seem to me to bring on "mass early cancellations" from now until the end of the year.  Is that what the cruise industry really wants to have happen?

[Dolebludger]

I guess I missed the part where the medical statements for guests over 70 was repealed, of never really adopted. In any event, at age 76, I’m glad it’s gone! It would seem that such a requirement for us guests would violate the ADA, or age discrimination laws. Or perhaps both. I’ve been on recent cruises where guests under 50 appeared to be in worse physical shape than me! And the stats for my county on Covid19 positive cases showed that the highest percentage was in the 20-29 age group. Such a requirement for ALL guests, regardless of age, would be an understandable defensive move. But distinction by age is not. Covid19 does not age discriminate!

[Dolebludger]

And while we cannot know for sure what health requirements cruise lines will impose on guests when cruising resumes again, one thing I can say for sure. If a cruise requires a medical statement for me, at 76, and does not require one from all guests, I will not book. Why? Because my county reports that 6.5% of Covid19  people here are over 70. And 22,5% are 20-29. Enough said. Whether against US law  or not, I will not pay huge sums to be discriminated against. 

[Travelcat2]

Dolebludger, Most of us feel the same way. IMHO, it is discriminatory and cruise lines (especially luxury cruise lines) would have a heck of a time surviving without seniors. I believe that NCLH is well of thid.

[Dolebludger]

Now, it would be fine with us if all cruise lines, in the future, were to require some health evidence from ALL embarking guests. That would actually be somewhat comforting to us. We would be happy to supply it if timing before the cruise were realistic, in light of time required to get appointments these days. I know that health care onboard is limited, and cruise ships are not intended to be hospitals.  But singling out those over 70 is wrong, according to stats from our county (La Plata Colorado) which indicates that those in the 20s should be singled out for health evidence, if anybody.

[pingpong1]

9 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

Now, it would be fine with us if all cruise lines, in the future, were to require some health evidence from ALL embarking guests. That would actually be somewhat comforting to us. We would be happy to supply it if timing before the cruise were realistic, in light of time required to get appointments these days. I know that health care onboard is limited, and cruise ships are not intended to be hospitals.  But singling out those over 70 is wrong, according to stats from our county (La Plata Colorado) which indicates that those in the 20s should be singled out for health evidence, if anybody.

Dolebludger - Agree with all you say, and would "add" that before I have to make a final payment, many months in advance of the actual cruise commencing, I want to be told - in writing - what specific requirements (health, documentation, and otherwise) are required of me to present before being allowed to board the ship.

 

It is not reasonable (and perhaps not even legal) to take customers' money, in any business, without clearly and specifically telling them what additional requirements they might have to meet, before they can receive that product....and before they (in many cases) wind up spending additional amounts of their own money and travel days in order to even arrive at the embarkation port.

[Wendy The Wanderer]

11 hours ago, pingpong1 said:

Okay - Accepting on blind and unconditional faith that everything that all the wise posters are saying (above) is true - Are we all going to know exactly what the "final rules" are for being allowed to board any ship (recently visited countries, body temp on boarding day, immunization records, medical history, ongoing/present health issues, etc., etc.)  BEFORE we're required to plunk down a multi-Thousand Dollar final payment.....5-6 months before the cruise actually begins?  Just wondering?

 

Everyone does realize(I hope), that there are several cruises that have NOT been cancelled (yet), and that are scheduled for departure in Sep/Oct/Nov/Dec timeframe of THIS YEAR, and that final payments will be coming due on those cruises within the next couple of months, right??!!  Could we be "just finding out" what (new - and unable to meet) health requirement might be require for boarding....AFTER the final payment has been made, and with no fully compensated financial recourse?  That would seem to me to bring on "mass early cancellations" from now until the end of the year.  Is that what the cruise industry really wants to have happen?

 

I am in complete agreement and thanks for stating this so clearly.  I am in this position, with final payment of over $100K due in early July.

 

As for boarding requirements, let's all agree that the over-70 doctor's note is dead.  But what may not be dead (although I can't find it just now on the RSSC website), is the statement that I posted previously stating that people with underlying medical conditions would not be allowed to board, period.  This, for us, is crucial, and if it "holds", will mean we won't be cruising at all, let alone paying our money to Regent in July 2020.

 

 

[BBWC]

In complete agreement as well. We have a Grand Voyage booked end of October with final payment of $$$ on June 1, and are certainly not willing to make final payment until there is some certainty on requirements. Not to even talk about probably not even having received the refund for our three cancelled cruises in April and May.

[Travelcat2]

Curious how Regent (or any cruise line) could tell passengers now what will required in November?  No one knows when the pandemic will let up.  Government officials make predictions that are often wrong.  So, I feel that the cruise lines are projecting 30 days at a time due to lack of firm information.  

 

If things are bad now with cancelled cruises, try to imagine what would happen if cruise lines cancelled cruises through the end of the year - refunded money  (or give FCC’s) to passengers and then learn that they can resume cruising in September? 

 

We (Regent passengers) have always been required to pay in full months before a cruise.  This is no different.  If Regent ends up cancelling a cruise, you can get your money back so I don’t see the problem.

[Wendy The Wanderer]

1 hour ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

...

As for boarding requirements, let's all agree that the over-70 doctor's note is dead.  But what may not be dead (although I can't find it just now on the RSSC website), is the statement that I posted previously stating that people with underlying medical conditions would not be allowed to board, period.  This, for us, is crucial, and if it "holds", will mean we won't be cruising at all, let alone paying our money to Regent in July 2020.

 

Here's the excerpt from the Regent website, but I can't find it online right now.  Perhaps someone else can find it.  Emphasis and editing is mine:

 

Denial of boarding will occur in the following cases:

• [transit through China, yadda yadda...]
• [people who've contacted people who've been in China, yadda yadda]
• Guests who have traveled from, visited or transited via airports in identified COVID-19 quarantine or containment zones within 30 days of their voyage embarkation, regardless of nationality. Travel companions of these guests who share the same suite will also be denied boarding.
• [temperature on boarding]
• [covid-19 exposure, blah blah]
• All persons who have reported on the Pre-Embarkation Public Health Questionnaire or who appear symptomatic, are feeling unwell, are exhibiting flu-like symptoms, exhibit difficulty breathing or have chronic pulmonary or respiratory conditions.

[BBWC]

1 hour ago, Travelcat2 said:

Curious how Regent (or any cruise line) could tell passengers now what will required in November?  No one knows when the pandemic will let up.  Government officials make predictions that are often wrong.  So, I feel that the cruise lines are projecting 30 days at a time due to lack of firm information.  

 

If things are bad now with cancelled cruises, try to imagine what would happen if cruise lines cancelled cruises through the end of the year - refunded money  (or give FCC’s) to passengers and then learn that they can resume cruising in September? 

 

We (Regent passengers) have always been required to pay in full months before a cruise.  This is no different.  If Regent ends up cancelling a cruise, you can get your money back so I don’t see the problem.

It is not a question of Regent cancelling a cruise, but possibly adding conditions that customers were not aware of when making final payment and that may affect their ability to take the cruise even if it is not cancelled.

And, in our case, frankly I don’t see why I have to make my final payment as always when their refund process is certainly not ‘as always’.

[Travelcat2]

May I suggest that people that are concerned with the statement "

• All persons who have reported on the Pre-Embarkation Public Health Questionnaire or who appear symptomatic, are feeling unwell, are exhibiting flu-like symptoms, exhibit difficulty breathing or have chronic pulmonary or respiratory conditions."  call your TA (first).  If they do to have an answer, see if they can get an answer for you (from their Regent Corporate contact instead of a Customer Service Agent).  It does not seem right to have to worry about something that may only be in effect during the pandemic (a disease that specifically targets our lungs and ability to breathe).  

[rallydave]

15 minutes ago, BBWC said:

It is not a question of Regent cancelling a cruise, but possibly adding conditions that customers were not aware of when making final payment and that may affect their ability to take the cruise even if it is not cancelled.

And, in our case, frankly I don’t see why I have to make my final payment as always when their refund process is certainly not ‘as always’.

Let's look at this a different way.  I understand the need to sail safely with this new virus causing problems.  Any purchase is a contract between the buyer and a seller and the terms and conditions of this purchase are defined at the time of the purchase.  Should the seller in this case Regent want to change those T's and C's they can do that only with the agreement of the buyer otherwise the T's and C's at the time of purchase are binding on both parties.

 

So I am saying no cruise line can change the terms and conditions after the sale has been consummated.  So, while it is safety first, do not believe more conditions of boarding like are being discussed can be applied without the buyer agreeing.  Know this can be dangerous and being done for safety but, a contract is a contract and cannot be changed unilaterally.

 

35 minutes ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

Denial of boarding will occur in the following cases:

• [transit through China, yadda yadda...]
• [people who've contacted people who've been in China, yadda yadda]
• Guests who have traveled from, visited or transited via airports in identified COVID-19 quarantine or containment zones within 30 days of their voyage embarkation, regardless of nationality. Travel companions of these guests who share the same suite will also be denied boarding.
• [temperature on boarding]
• [covid-19 exposure, blah blah]
• All persons who have reported on the Pre-Embarkation Public Health Questionnaire or who appear symptomatic, are feeling unwell, are exhibiting flu-like symptoms, exhibit difficulty breathing or have chronic pulmonary or respiratory conditions.

And Wendy, thanks for posting all those rules and highlighting your concerns and I believe the third bullet is the most concerning as almost the entire world is identified as quarantee or containment zones and with the 30 days post ending the quaranteement or containment would need a miracle to cruise again this year.

 

[Wendy The Wanderer]

5 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

May I suggest that people that are concerned with the statement "

• ... call your TA (first).  If they do to have an answer, see if they can get an answer for you (from their Regent Corporate contact instead of a Customer Service Agent).  It does not seem right to have to worry about something that may only be in effect during the pandemic (a disease that specifically targets our lungs and ability to breathe).  

 

There is no point in doing this unless and until we're either ready to cancel completely for a deposit refund, or final payment (and thus penalties) is approach.  I'm certainly not going to bother my TA with this right now.

[Pcardad]

I do not believe the rules posted above are currently in effect. Also, keep in mind that I, by being transited through HK airport (booked by Regent) was ultimately denied boarding for one of these rules in Bali in Feb. Regent refuned 100% of my fare, including the BC air (that I used to have a 9 day holiday in Bali) and gave me a very generous FCC on top of it all. I have well over $1,400,000 in current bookings for my "group" and not a single one has cancelled. They are confident and happy to wait on Regent to cancel (if it happens) and take the 25% additional FCC. 

 

My personal belief is that the worst case scenario is that someone buys a part of NCL. 2nd worst is that the cruise lines put a few ships into cold storage for a while. Note that Regent has no current plans to do this that I have heard of...and all still hot on a pier or at anchorage.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Pcardad

[Dolebludger]

"All persons who appear" to have various conditions will be denid boarding? Who is going to make that determination? Will there be a doctor present to give me an exam? And while I am in great physical condition (except for an "old war injury" to my ankle, by the time I go through the Hell of airports, airlines, cabs, busses, etc to get to embarkation I "appear" to be about half dead!

[Pcardad]

That is not in effect right now.

 

I am sure we will get an update when they start sailing again. No one wants things to return to normal more than the cruise lines...or rather the people they employ.

[Dolebludger]

Yes, what we have to do, when the ships go again, is to make a comprehensive inquiry as to new conditions and rules regarding a number of things, including fitness to embark, before we book. I would think that if the rules change for somebody already booked so they likely would be denied embarkation, they will be allowed to cancel for full refund. If not, I can foresee class actions sprouting up like weeds!

[Pcardad]

Regent has an unbroken history of taking care of its clients. I am not worried. 

[BBWC]

Interesting article on cruise line financial condition, cruise resumption, and price cut expectations.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/cruise-lines-survive-shutdown-bankruptcy/

[pingpong1]

8 hours ago, Pcardad said:

I am sure we will get an update when they start sailing again. No one wants things to return to normal more than the cruise lines...or rather the people they employ.

Pcardad - I think that the concern many of us have is that by the time sailings DO "begin again" (sometime this summer?), there will be many people who will have already made their "final payments" (based on the way the "old/current payment rules" are written) and THEN they subsequently find out that under a "new screening regime" (and after final payments have been made - 6 months before the cruise) that new and more stringent screening rules (physical conditions) have been imposed that might limit (or deny) many of them to "now" board the ship.

 

Those "new boarding  rules" that might be imposed when cruising begins again, should be known BEFORE any of us are required to make our final payments.  Don't focus on what new rules might be implemented.  Focus instead on what might be improved/changed/modified by Regent, as to when and how far in advance those final payments are "due and payable" before the cruise starts - at least during a reasonable transition period.

 

This is "RallyDave's" point.  It appears that the "rules of the game" might be changed after the actual game (final payment) actually begins.