Solvency of Cruise Lines

[Travelcat2]

7 minutes ago, Bellaggio Cruisers said:

Remember....NO CASES of covid-19 on ANY Regent ship!

sheila

 

Amen!   

[Wendy The Wanderer]

1 hour ago, Bellaggio Cruisers said:

Remember....NO CASES of covid-19 on ANY Regent ship!

sheila

 

Yes,  and apparently not on Silversea or Oceania either.  And apparently none on Azamara or Viking or Seabourn.   (None on the PG either, btw.)  Hmm, is that all the luxury and boutique premium lines?

 

A few thoughts on that.  Are small ships with high passenger to space ratios safer?  Surely. 

 

Yet would you bet your life on that?  I've been on Mariner during a code red for Noro, and although it was handled very very well, I don't want to be in that situation with this virus.  And particularly until scientists have studied the viral transmission vectors on Diamond Princess. So no, I'm not going to bet my life on Regent or any other luxury line to do it right, because nobody knows how to, at least not right now.

 

It may be that the large cruise carriers will suffer great losses, and maybe that will be a good thing.  But then again, there are all those millennials and younger who were out partying on the beaches just weeks ago in places like Florida--surely they feel immortal enough that they'll flock back to those ships to get a fix of cheap fun in the sun.

 

But I do believe that the luxury lines will prosper in the long run--it may be that, for the most part, cruising goes back to being just that quiet luxury that retirees yearn for, and perhaps a bit more affordable.  That is, if the epidemiological problems of this virus can be solved.

[Travelcat2]

Wendy - there is a Silversea ship on the list (Silver Explorer) and the Silver Whisper (not on the list) was held in South America for a at least 10 days due to a couple cases of coronavirus.  It seems that nothing is 100% accurate lately!

Edited April 10, 2020 by Travelcat2

[Wendy The Wanderer]

4 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

Wendy - there is a Silversea ship on the list and the Silver Whisper (not on the list) was held in South America for a at least 10 days due to a couple cases of coronavirus.  It seems that nothing is 100% accurate lately!

Right, I do remember that.  Someone up this thread had posted otherwise.  I believe I'm right about the PG, Azamara and Viking.

 

In fact, having been a (probably) ex-future world cruiser, I was watching the world cruises of Regent, Viking and several others very closely.  I've been very impressed with the way that Viking handled winding theirs down.  The last eight Canadians just headed home from Gibraltar a couple of days ago, after something like 50 days at sea.  By the end they were honorary crew members!

Edited April 10, 2020 by Wendy The Wanderer

[mrlevin]

I think Apollo Global Management is exploring bankruptcy; they just brought on Paul Aronzon as a Director; he has experience in taking companies through bankruptcy.  If I am not mistaken (and I may be), this is the same Apollo Global Management that had bought Oceania and Regent and then sold to NCL.  It is also the same company where all hotel department employees below GM and F&B are actually employed (they are not Regent employees).  I don't know if this has anything to do with cruising but thought it was something to throw out for others to comment if they know more.

 

thanks,

 

Marc

[fudgbug]

Not all cruise ships are floating towns and cities.

[BarbarianPaul]

36 minutes ago, fudgbug said:

Not all cruise ships are floating towns and cities.

No, but the smaller luxury ships are floating villages, and people can get sick there too. No matter what the size of the ship, I’m not sure there are any mitigating measures ships can take that will 100% prevent passengers from being infected if a carrier is onboard. And I think the smaller luxury lines with zero infections got lucky. 
 

At this point, since I’m still unsure when and where it might be safe to cruise, I think the only way I’d make a final payment would be if I had the option to cancel at a date much closer to sailing with a full refund, as opposed to a future cruise credit of dubious value.

I know that’s a difficult one for the cruise lines, but I think they might have to adopt more liberal policies to ultimately get folks back onboard.

[Stickman1990]

4 hours ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

 

Yes,  and apparently not on Silversea or Oceania either.  And apparently none on Azamara or Viking or Seabourn.   (None on the PG either, btw.)  Hmm, is that all the luxury and boutique premium lines?

No cases on Crystal Cruises either 

[Bellaggio Cruisers]

54 minutes ago, mrlevin said:

I think Apollo Global Management is exploring bankruptcy; they just brought on Paul Aronzon as a Director; he has experience in taking companies through bankruptcy.  If I am not mistaken (and I may be), this is the same Apollo Global Management that had bought Oceania and Regent and then sold to NCL.  It is also the same company where all hotel department employees below GM and F&B are actually employed (they are not Regent employees).  I don't know if this has anything to do with cruising but thought it was something to throw out for others to comment if they know more.

 

thanks,

 

Marc

Are you referring to bankruptcy of Regent? I don’t think you mean Apollo Global Management...... 

[mrlevin]

11 minutes ago, Bellaggio Cruisers said:

Are you referring to bankruptcy of Regent? I don’t think you mean Apollo Global Management...... 

 

I do mean Apollo Global Management. I can't find article I saw earlier regarding an 8-K filing.

 

Marc

[CBWIR]

13 minutes ago, mrlevin said:

 

I do mean Apollo Global Management. I can't find article I saw earlier regarding an 8-K filing.

 

Marc

There are  at least two Apollos . Apollo Global Management invested in Prestige which owned Regent and Oceania and was instrumental in the acquisition of Prestige by NCHL. The Apollo Group (aka Apollo Ship Chandlers) is a completely separate organization and is responsible for staffing and provisioning Regent (and other) ships. Don't think Aronson's appointment has anything to do with Regent. But as you said, I could be wrong.

[mrlevin]

Yes, I know that there are multiple Apollos; the one I saw news on today was definitely Apollo Global Management; glad that it is not the one that provides crew members; means that it is totally unrelated to cruising.

 

thanks,

 

Marc

[labonnevie]

6 hours ago, BarbarianPaul said:

 No matter what the size of the ship, I’m not sure there are any mitigating measures ships can take that will 100% prevent passengers from being infected if a carrier is onboard. And I think the smaller luxury lines with zero infections got lucky. 

I am not extremely worried about the virus being transmitted by someone on board. I am far more concerned with transmission while on shore, on excursions, etc. Bringing the virus back onboard after contact on shore seems to me like the bigger, and harder to control, problem.

[BarbarianPaul]

10 hours ago, labonnevie said:

I am not extremely worried about the virus being transmitted by someone on board. I am far more concerned with transmission while on shore, on excursions, etc. Bringing the virus back onboard after contact on shore seems to me like the bigger, and harder to control, problem.

Either way, the virus will be transmitted by someone onboard, whether said passenger embarks with it, or picks it up while at port. One other issue. With stronger CDC guidelines ultimately in place when cruise ships start sailing, you can bet the cruise lines will try to pass those costs on to the passengers, but who on earth will pay extra, with all the risks involved, to start sailing again?

[Wendy The Wanderer]

3 minutes ago, BarbarianPaul said:

With stronger CDC guidelines ultimately in place when cruise ships start sailing, you can bet the cruise lines will try to pass those costs on to the passengers, but who on earth will pay extra, with all the risks involved, to start sailing again?

 

Yep.  Gotta agree.  This may be the straw that breaks the camels back, for me. Thinking I'll probably cancel our world cruise by the end of the month.

[partiamo]

I have no upcoming cruises with Regent, but have sailed with them in the past.  Someone posted concerning whether there was a priority claim in the event of a bankruptcy of NCL.  Here is some possibly useful info

 

Chapter 13 bankruptcy. In this chapter, all priority claims must get paid in full through the plan. For instance, your plan payment will have to be sufficient to pay all of your back child support, taxes, and other priority claims. If the proposed payment isn't sufficient to cover these claims, your Chapter 13 plan won't get confirmed and your case will be dismissed.

 

The following is a list of the ten categories of priority claims, along with a brief explanation about each type.

 

Customer deposit claims. Claims for deposits placed by individuals for the purchase or lease of property or services for personal or household use, when the property or services were not delivered or otherwise received are limited to $3,025 per claim (as of April 1, 2019). Examples of these type of claims include layaway payments, home repair deposits, and deposits made to a travel agency.

 

Hope this info helps.

[Steve Q]

2 hours ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

 

Yep.  Gotta agree.  This may be the straw that breaks the camels back, for me. Thinking I'll probably cancel our world cruise by the end of the month.

Wendy, that is probably a good decision. Even if conditions improved dramatically later in the year, it is difficult to believe that you couldn’t just rebook this voyage. I firmly believe that there is not going to be a rush to book new cruises in the near future, especially cruises of great length. In addition, you will save yourself any possible concern about the solvency of the parent company. So mush has changed in six weeks. We have no idea what the future holds in three or even six months from now. Honestly, it is almost pointless to project the future at this point. 

[rallydave]

1 hour ago, partiamo said:

I have no upcoming cruises with Regent, but have sailed with them in the past.  Someone posted concerning whether there was a priority claim in the event of a bankruptcy of NCL.  Here is some possibly useful info

 

Chapter 13 bankruptcy. In this chapter, all priority claims must get paid in full through the plan. For instance, your plan payment will have to be sufficient to pay all of your back child support, taxes, and other priority claims. If the proposed payment isn't sufficient to cover these claims, your Chapter 13 plan won't get confirmed and your case will be dismissed.

 

The following is a list of the ten categories of priority claims, along with a brief explanation about each type.

 

Customer deposit claims. Claims for deposits placed by individuals for the purchase or lease of property or services for personal or household use, when the property or services were not delivered or otherwise received are limited to $3,025 per claim (as of April 1, 2019). Examples of these type of claims include layaway payments, home repair deposits, and deposits made to a travel agency.

 

Hope this info helps.

Since I believe all of the Ocean Cruise lines including Carnival, RCL and NCL are registered overseas companies they would not be filing for bankruptcy in the United States so the above would not be in effect.  They would be filing in the country where they are registered and subject to the bankruptcy laws of that country.

 

Their laws may or may not be the same so be careful when considering the effects of bankruptcy.

[scuba diver]

Any foreign corporation can file for BK in the federal courts if they have sufficient property or assets in the US.  My guess is that any or all of them can.  They would if the consequence is better for them.  However, a better question would be can a creditor force them to file here.

[Dolebludger]

Absolutely! A creditor can actually file the bankruptcy case on its own.

[Travelcat2]

To the new posters on the Regent board - welcome!  This is a good time to check out other boards to see what other cruise lines are doing.  There is one thing that all of us should be aware of and that is the future of other cruise lines and the future of Regent, Oceania and NCL are not the same.  All cruise lines do to have the same situations.

 

So, for instance, when someone from another cruise line feels that there will be no rush to rebook cruises, this is likely the case with some cruise lines but, with hundreds (thousands?) of Regent passengers that need to book to use their FCC's, there could be rush to book.  After all, Regent ship's total capacity is 3,390 (passengers only) - less than many single ships on some premium and mainstream cruise lines.  

 

The same holds true for the solvency of different cruise lines.  To be honest I find the discussion of how/when/if a cruise line will file bankruptcy is premature and simply is spreading more negativity.  People in the U.S. (and likely across the world) are looking for ways to safely resume to what will be "normal" life in the future.  Many of us are concerned about jobs, finances, even getting food in some areas of the country.  If people were only looking at how the United States (or other countries) will fail, there would be little reason to ever leave our homes.  

 

Think that I'll start a thread where people can post ideas of not only how cruise ships can safely resume sailing (before there is a vaccine since cruise Iines cannot wait that long) but how people can resume their lives after being quarantined or semi-quarantined for weeks.  

 

This thread is about the solvency of cruise lines.  There have been almost 250 posts.  Perhaps we can do what the governors of the states are doing ....... finding ways to safely get on with life.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Travelcat2

[BarbarianPaul]

1 hour ago, Travelcat2 said:

So, for instance, when someone from another cruise line feels that there will be no rush to rebook cruises, this is likely the case with some cruise lines but, with hundreds (thousands?) of Regent passengers that need to book to use their FCC's, there could be rush to book.  After all, Regent ship's total capacity is 3,390 (passengers only) - less than many single ships on some premium and mainstream cruise lines.  

I highly doubt that the size of the cruise line will have anything to do with it’s ability to get passengers back on board, regardless of how many FCCs they’ve handed out. I don’t think the enemy we’re facing cares if you’re on a luxury, premium or mainstream cruise line, and I don’t think now is the time to belabor their differences.

 

And I don’t think anyone will put their health on the line to take advantage of a FCC. I’ve now got two of them, but right now, for me, they’re worthless. I’ll eat the cost rather than get sick. So I don’t think anyone has to worry about some mad “rush to book.”

 

 

[Travelcat2]

Paul, once again, we disagree.  There are many Regent passengers that have been booking new cruises right after their cruise was cancelled. 

 

The simple fact that some cruise ships would need several thousand passengers to fill their ship vs. Regent that only needs a few hundred is but one of the differences.  

 

I certainly did not feel that I was booking a cruise that I would become sick on.  In terms of FCC’s, we had over $40K but also had the option to receive a refund.  We would have taken the refund if we were concerned.  Keep in mind that cruise ships will not sail if the risk to the passengers or crew are too high.

 

Going back to my comment, predictions of doom, bankruptcy and not being able to cruise for months (or years if you wait for the FDA to approve a vaccine), is really not helping anyone.  We do not have facts so this kind of information causes people more fear and pain as well as causing them to cancel cruises that may end up being perfectly safe.  

 

While I can’t stop people from swimming in the pool of negativity, I can try show the other side of the picture and that is what I am doing!

Edited April 11, 2020 by Travelcat2

[RJB]

On 4/10/2020 at 1:51 AM, Dolebludger said:

TC2,

 

Yes, I believe that Regent (and all cruise lines) are a bit dependent on the quality of travel needed to get to the ship, and whether or not it is available. If it bothers you, I will say not more about it after this. But I feel that nobody who pays what Regent charges for a cruise (though well worth it) want's to fly basic economy on any needed domestic legs, and nor do they want to forgo the whole air inclusion (including business intercontinental air) for a skimpy credit and then pay a whole lot more to get business all the way. If there were a way to get a credit for the economy domestic legs we don't want from Regent that is equal to the economy fare the airlines post, we would take that credit and pay the amount above that for domestic business and be happy. But the credit we could get from Regent is far less than that. And we are not happy about that, and that's is all I will say on this subject.

our quality of travel is our driver that picks us up from the house and takes us to the ship.  Have no interest anymore in planes.  Too much of a hassle.  I feel that more people are thinking this way.  Drive to the ship or forget about it. 

[Travelcat2]

42 minutes ago, RJB said:

our quality of travel is our driver that picks us up from the house and takes us to the ship.  Have no interest anymore in planes.  Too much of a hassle.  I feel that more people are thinking this way.  Drive to the ship or forget about it. 

 

Wish that most of us could drive to the ship.  The only place we can do that is when a cruise leaves out of Vancouver.  Agree that plane travel has become pretty bad - especially in the U.S.  Of course I would like to see Business Class flights within the U.S., but I don't want to see prices escalate any more than they currently are.  When we have asked Regent to upgrade us to domestic Business Class (which usually ends up being First Class) the cost was almost double of what we would pay when booking ourselves.  This would be okay IF U.S. airlines were decent and reliable.  On our last two cruises that ended in Miami, we booked flights on American Airlines to depart MIA around 1:30 p.m.  A month before each cruise we received notice that our flight times had been changed and both times they were for flights departing around 6:00 a.m. (more than impossible when that is the time you arrive in port).  Our only alternatives at that point was either to spend the night in Miami (not our favorite place to stay -- we aren't into large cities) or take flights with miserable times (like spending 5 hours at LAX and not getting to Vancouver until late at night).  

 

It is for these reasons that we try to book airlines that do not stop in the U.S. (like Cathay Pacific, Lufthansa, British Airways, etc.). This eliminates the problem for most of our cruises.  We hope to never book a cruise that disembarks in Miami again.