Solvency of Cruise Lines

[Wendy The Wanderer]

1 hour ago, rallydave said:

Don't really believe any cruise line will have virus tests at embarkation.  Can you imagine people in full PPE you have to walk thru to the ship and just because someone tests negative, they could be positive in a day or more. 

 

Would kind of suck the joy out of the experience, wouldn't it?

[Pam]

I remember Renaissance cruises going belly-up, we were looking at them.  But they went no-smoking LONG before anybody else even considered thinking about it, and then tried to go no-children (or maybe it was the reverse, I can't remember).  They were already in trouble, but those two decisions broke the camel's back.

 

I have made my final Payment.  I sit and wait.

 

 

[Dolebludger]

Wendy,

 

Yes, it would! It would not be a good cruise vacation. There is so much about this pandemic that it cannot be posted here. Like the fact that it has been determined that the huge problem in NY  reportedly came from Europe, and not China. As I have posted before, I don’t think a Regent cruise pose any large disease spread problem onboard due to crowds, because there aren’t any! But having an infected person onboard could still cause some spread, no doubt. 
I hope Regent can find a way out of this and provide us with more great vacations in the future. But it may not be soon. Because the airports and airlines that we need to get to a cruise can’t continue to treat us like cattle. My wife just looked at flights on American just to see where they were still flying. In domestic economy, they have “X’d” out all the middle seats. They were not booked, American just eliminated them, and thank God!  Now, airlines need to give us all more legroom in all domestic classes, because Regent’s “free air” includes only basically economy on all North American legs, and it isn’t upgradable and it isn’t bearable. And it isn’t easy to take Regent’s business class intercontinental flights and get a decent discount for not taking their basic economy domestic legs.

 

So Regent perhaps needs to “clean up their act” in some respects (like decent air all the way to the port and back) but uncrowded conditions onboard has never been a problem that we have experienced,

[Travelcat2]

Dolebludger ...... so, Regent does not have issues with their onboard experience but, yet again, you act as if the airlines are under control of the cruise lines.  There is an option to upgrade (at quite a high cost) or to book your own flights and take the air credit.  Yes - this costs money but you get what you pay for.

 

IMHO, the solvency of Regent is not dependent upon the comfortability (or lack thereof) of airlines.  This is a totally different subject.  BTW, are you aware that there is a section of CC dedicated to airlines.  Perhaps that would be a good place to have this discusssion.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Travelcat2

[Travelcat2]

1 hour ago, Pam said:

I remember Renaissance cruises going belly-up, we were looking at them.  But they went no-smoking LONG before anybody else even considered thinking about it, and then tried to go no-children (or maybe it was the reverse, I can't remember).  They were already in trouble, but those two decisions broke the camel's back.

 

I have made my final Payment.  I sit and wait.

 

 

 

Unless I am misremembering, a large part of Renaissance’s downfall was building too many ships too quickly and their poor relationships with travel agents (in addition to what you mentioned).

[Dolebludger]

Actually, we were booked on REN back before 9-11, and then that horrible event happened. I began checking on their financials and (would you believe) we canceled the day before they went bankrupt! We got our AmEx credit, and then got a call from our TA. It seemed that Radisson was offering great deals to those who had booked on REN. Our TA said we qualified, even though we had lost no money, so we booked on the Paul Gauguin (then owned by Radisson , now Regent). It was $2200 pp for a 7 night in a full window suite. But here's the kicker. We were picked up in a limo at our home and driven to our local  airport. Our flights were coach to LAX and coach on Air Tahiti Nui to Papeete , but coach air was bearable back then, and included in the fare and back. Then, in Tahiti, we were picked up by a car (no bus) and taken to the ship. And it was the same first class treatment on the return. Radisson (now Regent) did a great marketing ploy back then, as we have cruised mostly RSSC since then. Some perks aren’t there today, but others have been added. And despite some of my posts about some things we don’t like that it has done, we wish Regent the best in getting through this  “keel down”.

[BarbarianPaul]

58 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

 

Unless I am misremembering, a large part of Renaissance’s downfall was building too many ships too quickly and their poor relationships with travel agents (in addition to what you mentioned).

One line whose longevity I don’t doubt is Viking. Almost every single day I’m emailed lectures, virtual tours, an ongoing conversational series with the family that owns the Downtun Abbey castle, and all sorts of well produced, clever videos designed to both educate and pass the time during quarantine. They’re clearly (and welcomely!) intended to sustain a love for travel during a time when none of us can.

Viking seems to have taken the lead,  and been the first to make the toughest decisions (subsequently emulated by the other lines), throughout our current situation.

Sadly, we haven’t seen the same from Regent.

Edited April 10, 2020 by BarbarianPaul
Typo

[Dolebludger]

TC2,

 

Yes, I believe that Regent (and all cruise lines) are a bit dependent on the quality of travel needed to get to the ship, and whether or not it is available. If it bothers you, I will say not more about it after this. But I feel that nobody who pays what Regent charges for a cruise (though well worth it) want's to fly basic economy on any needed domestic legs, and nor do they want to forgo the whole air inclusion (including business intercontinental air) for a skimpy credit and then pay a whole lot more to get business all the way. If there were a way to get a credit for the economy domestic legs we don't want from Regent that is equal to the economy fare the airlines post, we would take that credit and pay the amount above that for domestic business and be happy. But the credit we could get from Regent is far less than that. And we are not happy about that, and that's is all I will say on this subject.

[Dolebludger]

Barbarian,

 

It is good that Viking is sending you this material. I know nothing about Viking ocean cruises, but do know something about Viking River cruises in Europe. About three years ago we were on a Scenic River cruise of the 
Rhine in Germany, and there was a point where the water was too low for the boats to pass. Scenic solved the problem by packing up our gear, and giving us a one hour bus ride to an identical boat on the other side of the low water, and unpacking our gear on the other boat in identical rooms, and the river cruise continued from there. Viking had the same issue, but continued the remainder of the cruise as a "bus and hotel" tour. If you have ever taken one of those, you may (like us) never want one again.

[Travelcat2]

2 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

Actually, we were booked on REN back before 9-11, and then that horrible event happened. I began checking on their financials and (would you believe) we canceled the day before they went bankrupt! We got our AmEx credit, and then got a call from our TA. It seemed that Radisson was offering great deals to those who had booked on REN. Our TA said we qualified, even though we had lost no money, so we booked on the Paul Gauguin (then owned by Radisson , now Regent). It was $2200 pp for a 7 night in a full window suite. But here's the kicker. We were picked up in a limo at our home and driven to our local  airport. Our flights were coach to LAX and coach on Air Tahiti Nui to Papeete , but coach air was bearable back then, and included in the fare and back. Then, in Tahiti, we were picked up by a car (no bus) and taken to the ship. And it was the same first class treatment on the return. Radisson (now Regent) did a great marketing ploy back then, as we have cruised mostly RSSC since then. Some perks aren’t there today, but others have been added. And despite some of my posts about some things we don’t like that it has done, we wish Regent the best in getting through this  “keel down”.

 

Really interesting story - thank you for sharing.  We wanted to sail on REN but never did.  We sailed the PG in 2004 and loved it (even though we didn’t get the kind of treatment that you did. ...... wow!

 

In terms of airlines, in my opinion, it is separate from the “cruising” experience.  I certainly understand that there is little comfort in coach seats, however, if Regent had to pay for upgraded seats within the U.S., the cost would be put in “our” fare.  We rarely sail out of the U.S. and make sure that our flights have no stops in the U.S. so we usually have international business class.  We intensely dislike U.S. carriers and traveling within the continental U.S.  So, I am with you on that but hope that, general, we can keep flights out of these threads.  

[Roger88]

On 4/9/2020 at 8:18 AM, SusieQft said:

If the rules are changed, either by Regent or an outside mandate, in such a way that some people are disqualified from cruising for the foreseeable future (if there is such a thing), we should hope that Regent would offer those people a 100% cash refund.  I think if such a change in the rules occurs after final payment, they are morally obligated to do so.  And if it is true that Regent will always do the right thing, then there is nothing to worry about.

I am totally with you on that one. Moreover, I think that even those who were on those infected ships have to be refunded. Ok, I am not saying that the companies should be suied but in order to avoid further excalation I would suggest calming people with at least by issuing the initial refund of the full sum paid for the cruise. I think it will be fair enough and it will protect the company from going to court

[Dolebludger]

TC2,

 

Fine! Just understand that we live in the middle of the US in a small Colorado town and we have to take one (usually two) domestic flights to get to an intercontinental flight where business class is included in Regent's fare. Some of these domestic legs can be a bit long in terms of time and airport layovers. The economy air Regent provides can't be upgraded to business with cash or points, and the credit for not taking those legs is well under the "best available fare" for them. That's not fair for us "mid Americans" and that's all I have on the subject.

[Dolebludger]

Roger88,

 

We all want to be able to avoid going to court, and I am a retired attorney! What we all want is simply some rules we are informed about that are reasonable, and if we don't like them, we will not book a cruise. All cruise line's contract contain a clause stating that all law suits must be brought in the state of Florida. It is basically to inconvenience those of us who live far from Florida from bringing a lawsuit. I don't know if those provisions are enforceable or not as cruise lines are not even US corporations, but let's just avoid that fight. If any of us want to book a cruise now (and I don't) You should require a written statement from the cruise line concerning physical requirements for embarkation, who will pay for your food and lodging in case of a quarantine or extension of the cruise due to port refusal to dock, who will pay for your airfare home in case you miss your booked flights due to these events, and who will pay your expenses if you are quarantined away from your home. If you can't get such a written statement, it is your right  not to book. 

[toseaornottosea]

7 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

Roger88,

 If any of us want to book a cruise now (and I don't) You should require a written statement from the cruise line concerning physical requirements for embarkation, who will pay for your food and lodging in case of a quarantine or extension of the cruise due to port refusal to dock, who will pay for your airfare home in case you miss your booked flights due to these events, and who will pay your expenses if you are quarantined away from your home. If you can't get such a written statement, it is your right  not to book. 

 

And what do you think the likelihood is that any cruise line would be willing to provide such a statement? 

[rallydave]

24 minutes ago, toseaornottosea said:

 

And what do you think the likelihood is that any cruise line would be willing to provide such a statement? 

Before I read the CDC ORDER last nite I would have said highly unlikely but the CDC Order does make these things that Dolebluger requested part of the ORDER the cruise lines have to provide in about a week.

[toseaornottosea]

12 minutes ago, rallydave said:

Before I read the CDC ORDER last nite I would have said highly unlikely but the CDC Order does make these things that Dolebluger requested part of the ORDER the cruise lines have to provide in about a week.

 

Please provide a link to the CDC ORDER you are referring to.  Thanks.

[mrlevin]

4 minutes ago, toseaornottosea said:

 

Please provide a link to the CDC ORDER you are referring to.  Thanks.

 

It is already posted in multiple places on this forum.  Here is another link:  

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships_Extension_4-9-20-encrypted.pdf

 

Still not in today's Federal Register so the 100 day clock hasn't started.

 

Marc

[pingpong1]

48 minutes ago, toseaornottosea said:

 

And what do you think the likelihood is that any cruise line would be willing to provide such a statement? 

Very likely - In the future.  How many customers have already been "burned" so far, by getting FCC's instead of CASH refunds, for cruises they paid for and didn't receive?

[John182]

Although I have no real idea as to whether some cruise lines will cease to exist when we come to the end of this grim time in our lives or not, I would have thought that the luxury end of the market will emerge as the strongest segment. Higher net worth customers are going to be very important in the overall recovery. Whether that means Regent survive and thrive in their present form or the ships are acquired by another company I do not know. There will still be a luxury segment though. When you can sail on one of its ships is a different question altogether.

[toseaornottosea]

15 minutes ago, mrlevin said:

 

It is already posted in multiple places on this forum.  Here is another link:  

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships_Extension_4-9-20-encrypted.pdf

 

Still not in today's Federal Register so the 100 day clock hasn't started.

 

Marc

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but having read the ORDER I see nowhere where an operator, as suggested by Roger88, shall be required to provide passengers with a "written statement from the cruise line concerning physical requirements for embarkation, who will pay for your food and lodging in case of a quarantine or extension of the cruise due to port refusal to dock, who will pay for your airfare home in case you miss your booked flights due to these events, and who will pay your expenses if you are quarantined away from your home."

 

I am more than happy to be educated on this matter, so with all due respect, please direct me to the specific section or paragraph where it so requires.

 

Thank you.

[rallydave]

7 minutes ago, toseaornottosea said:

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but having read the ORDER I see nowhere where an operator, as suggested by Roger88, shall be required to provide passengers with a "written statement from the cruise line concerning physical requirements for embarkation, who will pay for your food and lodging in case of a quarantine or extension of the cruise due to port refusal to dock, who will pay for your airfare home in case you miss your booked flights due to these events, and who will pay your expenses if you are quarantined away from your home."

 

I am more than happy to be educated on this matter, so with all due respect, please direct me to the specific section or paragraph where it so requires.

 

Thank you.

Believe you are asking me as I somewhat alluded to that information.   I'll try to explain. On page 6 in the ORDER a plan is required to be provide within 7 days of the signing of the ORDER which has to out by April 16.  The requirements of the plan are listed on pages 6-8 and cover many of this issues Roger88 and others asked to be provided to the customer.  My thoughts are that most of this information is required to be in the plan submitted to the CDC and thus would be simple to put that information in a document that could be provided to the customers.  Hope this helps

[toseaornottosea]

"Believe you are asking me as I somewhat alluded to that information.   I'll try to explain. On page 6 in the ORDER a plan is required to be provide within 7 days of the signing of the ORDER which has to out by April 16.  The requirements of the plan are listed on pages 6-8 and cover many of this issues Roger88 and others asked to be provided to the customer.  My thoughts are that most of this information is required to be in the plan submitted to the CDC and thus would be simple to put that information in a document that could be provided to the customers.  Hope this helps"

 

rallydave, I have read and re-read the ORDER and specifically the pages and sections you reference and I may be naive but I think it's a stretch to suggest it is required that cruise line operators provide passengers with a statement X number of days prior to embarkation that provides them the protections that have been discussed here.  

 

[rallydave]

2 minutes ago, toseaornottosea said:

allydave, I have read and re-read the ORDER and specifically the pages and sections you reference and I may be naive but I think it's a stretch to suggest it is required that cruise line operators provide passengers with a statement X number of days prior to embarkation that provides them the protections that have been discussed here.  

 

Didn't say it required the cruise line to provide this information to customers at any specific time.  Just that the cruise lines have to develop the plan for the CDC that includes a lot of what the passengers want and that it would be fairly easy for the cruise lines to provide that information to their customers.  Now will the cruise lines do this??  Have no idea!!.

[BarbarianPaul]

10 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

Barbarian,

 

It is good that Viking is sending you this material. I know nothing about Viking ocean cruises, but do know something about Viking River cruises in Europe. About three years ago we were on a Scenic River cruise of the 
Rhine in Germany, and there was a point where the water was too low for the boats to pass. Scenic solved the problem by packing up our gear, and giving us a one hour bus ride to an identical boat on the other side of the low water, and unpacking our gear on the other boat in identical rooms, and the river cruise continued from there. Viking had the same issue, but continued the remainder of the cruise as a "bus and hotel" tour. If you have ever taken one of those, you may (like us) never want one again.

Agreed! That sounds like a nightmare. My wife and I have only done one Viking river cruise, visiting the Christmas markets on the Rhine a few years ago, and luckily the water levels that year were high enough for quite an enjoyable cruise.
 

But I have cruised multiple times with Viking Ocean Cruises, and my post was specifically referring to them. I think their leadership has clearly been the strongest during these crazy times. The “Regent Reassurance” program was a hastily concocted copy of Viking’s. Seems like Regent’s strategy, which I find a curious one, is to wait and see what everyone else is doing so as not to have to offer their passengers any more concessions than they have to. 
 

 

[Bellaggio Cruisers]

Remember....NO CASES of covid-19 on ANY Regent ship!

sheila