Social Distancing - will ships have to rearrange or even close venues? And who regulates this?

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, ducklite said:

Not the CDC, but the cruise lines should require proof of travel insurance with a minimum $500K in medical coverage including medical evacuation insurance to board any ship moving forward.   

 

Isn't that up to insurance as whether they will modify their policies to cover COVID19 outbreaks? 

[clo]

6 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Isn't that up to insurance as whether they will modify their policies to cover COVID19 outbreaks? 

This was discussed a while back and I was pretty sure I read that pandemics are specifically excluded. Yes? No?

[njhorseman]

5 hours ago, ducklite said:

Not the CDC, but the cruise lines should require proof of travel insurance with a minimum $500K in medical coverage including medical evacuation insurance to board any ship moving forward.   

Why would a cruise line care about that? Whether you have insurance or not wouldn't affect how you're treated as a passenger. If you have to be put off the ship because of illness they'll put you off the ship, just like they always have done. If you need medical treatment while on the ship you'll have to pay for it just as you always have been required to. 

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, clo said:

This was discussed a while back and I was pretty sure I read that pandemics are specifically excluded. Yes? No?

 

COVID-19, if it persists, won't be considered a pandemic forever.

 

[clo]

4 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

COVID-19, if it persists, won't be considered a pandemic forever.

 

I've read that a pandemic is over when everyone is either dead or immune. No joke.

[cruisemom42]

Just now, clo said:

I've read that a pandemic is over when everyone is either dead or immune. No joke.

 

No joke, sure, but it's kind of a flip answer. 

 

Actually what happens is that it becomes endemic -- to quote The Verge, "diseases become endemic when they’re continuously, predictably present in the human population."  Generally a disease is considered a pandemic when it is new and the risks are unknown.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/7/21128218/coronavirus-epidemic-endemic-risk-fear-cure-treatment

[clo]

23 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

No joke, sure, but it's kind of a flip answer. 

 

Not flip but stark. And thanks for your information. I want to learn so much.

[ilikeanswers]

40 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

No joke, sure, but it's kind of a flip answer. 

 

Actually what happens is that it becomes endemic -- to quote The Verge, "diseases become endemic when they’re continuously, predictably present in the human population."  Generally a disease is considered a pandemic when it is new and the risks are unknown.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/7/21128218/coronavirus-epidemic-endemic-risk-fear-cure-treatment

 

Still doesn't mean insurance might choose to exclude, provide limited or pay for extra coverage for COVID19. 

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, ducklite said:

Not the CDC, but the cruise lines should require proof of travel insurance with a minimum $500K in medical coverage including medical evacuation insurance to board any ship moving forward.   

 

5 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Why would a cruise line care about that? Whether you have insurance or not wouldn't affect how you're treated as a passenger. If you have to be put off the ship because of illness they'll put you off the ship, just like they always have done. If you need medical treatment while on the ship you'll have to pay for it just as you always have been required to. 

 

I agree with NJHorsman's comments.  But having the insurance requirement would potentially eliminate future PR nightmares for the cruise lines.  To me there is some positive aspect to making passengers show financial responsibility via insurance.  Assuming as LikeAnswers already said, coverage would even apply to CV.  

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

 

I agree with NJHorsman's comments.  But having the insurance requirement would potentially eliminate future PR nightmares for the cruise lines.  To me there is some positive aspect to making passengers show financial responsibility via insurance.  Assuming as LikeAnswers already said, coverage would even apply to CV.  

I think many TAs make you sign a disclaimer if you turn down buying insurance saying that you were offered and turned it down. 

[ilikeanswers]

13 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I think many TAs make you sign a disclaimer if you turn down buying insurance saying that you were offered and turned it down. 

 

You might turn down a TA insurance doesn't mean you haven't purchased from somewhere else. If they are making customers sign a disclamer it must be for their own company records, maybe to prove the TA's attempted sale🤔?

[ontheweb]

4 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

You might turn down a TA insurance doesn't mean you haven't purchased from somewhere else. If they are making customers sign a disclamer it must be for their own company records, maybe to prove the TA's attempted sale🤔?

I agree that it is a CYA thing for the TA. It is to show that they offered insurance in case something happens and the customer then blames the TA for not offering insurance. 

 

Having used the same TA several times, he knows we will buy the insurance often through him since the price is the same and no reason for him not to make a commission.

[Joebucks]

I don't know why we are discussing COVID-19 and insurance like they are hand in hand. The two couldn't be more far apart at the moment.

[KnowTheScore]

Social Distancing is impossible on a cruise ship. 

 

How could you even operate lifts/elevators?!    How could you organise the long queues of 100s of people waiting to get into a lift for their solitary trip in it?   How could you organise people going up and down staircases spread apart by 2m or more?

How would you get 1000s of people into areas for the compulsory muster drills?

 

How would you manage long queues of 1000s of people all coming down for their evening meal, all having to be 2m apart whilst queuing?    As an example, P&O's cruise ship Aurora is 270m long.   She takes about 1800 passengers.  Even if the ship were only half capacity with 900 people, and if those people are split across 2 dining sittings (abolishing freedom dining) then you have 450 a sitting and needing to queue 2m apart.   They would be queuing up and down the entire length of the ship twice every night !!!     Plus of course the restaurants wouldn't be able to seat them sitting 2m apart.

 

Theatres would have to be ripped apart probably reduce to 1/3rd or 1/4 of their current capacity.   People wouldn't be able to get to the shows as a result. 

 

Coffee bars would be largely pointless.  They can't cope as it is now with high volumes of passengers.  Removing most tables to leave the rest 2m apart would cripple the service and just make it pointless.

 

Most ships are designed with walkways down each side of the ship.  None of them are really wide enough to ensure social distancing as people walk in both directions.  So you'd have to implement a circular directional system with people only ever walking in one direction.

 

Many of the prom decks that are thin would be useless and out of action. 

 

Sun beds would have to be reduced in numbers to prevent crowding and the decks would have to be marked out with car park like spaces so people knew where to put them.  The current practice of passengers dropping sunbeds wherever they liked, blocking walkways and the like would have to cease.

 

No.   There's simply no way social distancing could ever be implemented on cruise ships unless the passenger compliment was utterly reduced to the point where it wouldn't be profitable for the cruise lines (unless ticket prices became 2-3 times what they currently are).

 

The only way forward realistically is to treat COVID-19 like Flu or Norovirus and just agree that everyone will take their chances.

 

If someone gets it, isolate them immediately, put them off the ship at the next port but let everyone else carry on normally.

 

Unfortunately every subsequent port will likely refuse entry to the ship from that point onward so you'll just be cruising at sea.

 

Possibly the only way forward is mandated swab testing of all passengers on a daily basis and especially before they go ashore and as they get back on board.  What a faff that will be, standing in huge long lines of 1000s of people in the hot sunshine waiting to get back on board but not being able to because you need to be swabbed and wait for the test to produce its results before you can board again !  And imagine if that test was positive?!!   You'd be moved to one side, treated like a leper and someone else would have to go into your cabin get all your stuff, cram it into cases and bring it to you.

 

I'm afraid to say the future of cruising as we know it looks extremely bleak at this point.   If not terminal.

 

.

 

 

[ducklite]

10 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Why would a cruise line care about that? Whether you have insurance or not wouldn't affect how you're treated as a passenger. If you have to be put off the ship because of illness they'll put you off the ship, just like they always have done. If you need medical treatment while on the ship you'll have to pay for it just as you always have been required to. 

Because a country could refuse to take people who aren't adequately insured, including evacuation on chartered flights.

[ducklite]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I think many TAs make you sign a disclaimer if you turn down buying insurance saying that you were offered and turned it down. 

Unfortunately then uninsured people get dumped into hospitals at ports with the cruise line washing their hands of them.  The cruise lines need to require it--particularly if they have the gall to ask for a handout.

[ducklite]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I agree that it is a CYA thing for the TA. It is to show that they offered insurance in case something happens and the customer then blames the TA for not offering insurance. 

 

Having used the same TA several times, he knows we will buy the insurance often through him since the price is the same and no reason for him not to make a commission.

Except often it only covers you from the time you step on the ship until you step off.  Fine if you live in Bowie and cruise out of Baltimore or Orlando and cruise out of Port Canaveral, but not so great if you are flying to Rome with a few days prior to your cruise there, and leaving Barcelona a few days after the cruise ends.

[ducklite]

44 minutes ago, KnowTheScore said:

Social Distancing is impossible on a cruise ship. 

 

How could you even operate lifts/elevators?!    How could you organise the long queues of 100s of people waiting to get into a lift for their solitary trip in it?   How could you organise people going up and down staircases spread apart by 2m or more?

How would you get 1000s of people into areas for the compulsory muster drills?

 

How would you manage long queues of 1000s of people all coming down for their evening meal, all having to be 2m apart whilst queuing?    As an example, P&O's cruise ship Aurora is 270m long.   She takes about 1800 passengers.  Even if the ship were only half capacity with 900 people, and if those people are split across 2 dining sittings (abolishing freedom dining) then you have 450 a sitting and needing to queue 2m apart.   They would be queuing up and down the entire length of the ship twice every night !!!     Plus of course the restaurants wouldn't be able to seat them sitting 2m apart.

 

Theatres would have to be ripped apart probably reduce to 1/3rd or 1/4 of their current capacity.   People wouldn't be able to get to the shows as a result. 

 

Coffee bars would be largely pointless.  They can't cope as it is now with high volumes of passengers.  Removing most tables to leave the rest 2m apart would cripple the service and just make it pointless.

 

Most ships are designed with walkways down each side of the ship.  None of them are really wide enough to ensure social distancing as people walk in both directions.  So you'd have to implement a circular directional system with people only ever walking in one direction.

 

Many of the prom decks that are thin would be useless and out of action. 

 

Sun beds would have to be reduced in numbers to prevent crowding and the decks would have to be marked out with car park like spaces so people knew where to put them.  The current practice of passengers dropping sunbeds wherever they liked, blocking walkways and the like would have to cease.

 

No.   There's simply no way social distancing could ever be implemented on cruise ships unless the passenger compliment was utterly reduced to the point where it wouldn't be profitable for the cruise lines (unless ticket prices became 2-3 times what they currently are).

 

The only way forward realistically is to treat COVID-19 like Flu or Norovirus and just agree that everyone will take their chances.

 

If someone gets it, isolate them immediately, put them off the ship at the next port but let everyone else carry on normally.

 

Unfortunately every subsequent port will likely refuse entry to the ship from that point onward so you'll just be cruising at sea.

 

Possibly the only way forward is mandated swab testing of all passengers on a daily basis and especially before they go ashore and as they get back on board.  What a faff that will be, standing in huge long lines of 1000s of people in the hot sunshine waiting to get back on board but not being able to because you need to be swabbed and wait for the test to produce its results before you can board again !  And imagine if that test was positive?!!   You'd be moved to one side, treated like a leper and someone else would have to go into your cabin get all your stuff, cram it into cases and bring it to you.

 

I'm afraid to say the future of cruising as we know it looks extremely bleak at this point.   If not terminal.

 

.

 

 

This is where sailing on a ship where there are only 200-300 people makes a big difference.  Sun decks have space between loungers, meals are served during meal hours, regardless of what time people show up--which tends to range between waiting for the dining room to open to 45 minutes later.  Tables are already spaced out with the choice of dining alone or at a large table.  Even at embarkation people tend to show up anytime in the three or four hours prior to "all aboard."  

There are a number of lines with small ships like this, and they all seem to be profitable (under normal circumstances.)  I expect the biggest changes we'll see will be extra hand sanitizer stations around the ship, staff serving us at the buffets, and perhaps the medical center making face masks available to anyone who would like one.  

[njhorseman]

49 minutes ago, ducklite said:

Because a country could refuse to take people who aren't adequately insured, including evacuation on chartered flights.

 

43 minutes ago, ducklite said:

Unfortunately then uninsured people get dumped into hospitals at ports with the cruise line washing their hands of them.  The cruise lines need to require it--particularly if they have the gall to ask for a handout.

39 minutes ago, ducklite said:

Except often it only covers you from the time you step on the ship until you step off.  Fine if you live in Bowie and cruise out of Baltimore or Orlando and cruise out of Port Canaveral, but not so great if you are flying to Rome with a few days prior to your cruise there, and leaving Barcelona a few days after the cruise ends.

Your comments don't seem to be grounded in any facts.

 

(1)Countries are not requiring visitors arriving by air to have insurance. (Yes there still is some limited international air travel taking place even today.) Why would they require cruise passengers to be insured?

 

(2)The major cruise lines are not asking for, nor have they received any handouts from the US government as they are ineligible because they're incorporated in foreign countries. Their additional financial support during the pandemic crisis has come from the issuance of new stock, private equity investment, and negotiation of debt restructuring from their lenders.

 

(3) Your travel insurance can be extended to cover any pre or post cruise travel . We always do that and I believe most travelers who have a need for insurance and understand what the insurance covers do that. I speak from many years of experience in both the insurance and travel industries.

[KnowTheScore]

50 minutes ago, ducklite said:

This is where sailing on a ship where there are only 200-300 people makes a big difference.  Sun decks have space between loungers, meals are served during meal hours, regardless of what time people show up--which tends to range between waiting for the dining room to open to 45 minutes later.  Tables are already spaced out with the choice of dining alone or at a large table.  Even at embarkation people tend to show up anytime in the three or four hours prior to "all aboard."  

There are a number of lines with small ships like this, and they all seem to be profitable (under normal circumstances.)  I expect the biggest changes we'll see will be extra hand sanitizer stations around the ship, staff serving us at the buffets, and perhaps the medical center making face masks available to anyone who would like one.  

 

And how did people move from deck to deck on those ships?  

 

Jumping in crowded lifts?  which will no longer be appropriate.

 

Also I suspect that the smaller ships in fleets will have been propped up by the larger more profitable ships in the fleets.

 

Without the larger ships the ticket prices will soar on smaller ships and/or service and quality will be greatly reduced.

 

What we've had up to this point simply can no longer continue.  It will all have to drastically change.

 

A new business model, a new cruise experience, a new proposition.   It remains to be seen what that will be and indeed whether anyone will be interested to pay £000s for it.

 

.

[KnowTheScore]

7 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

(3) Your travel insurance can be extended to cover any pre or post cruise travel . We always do that and I believe most travelers who have a need for insurance and understand what the insurance covers do that. I speak from many years of experience in both the insurance and travel industries.

 

 

Insurance companies are not going to insure people for COVID-19.  The costs would be astronomically high for them.   COVID-19 will be deemed "act of God" in small print.  That leaves travellers exposed and vulnerable.  The prospect of footing your own medical bills abroad and minimum 14 days isolation with related accommodation costs for spouses and then flights home and further 14 day quarantining on returning etc would simply be prohibitive to most people.  It's a stalemate.

 

Insurers might be prepared to insure people who can scientifically prove they have had the virus and lived through it and thus gained immunity.  That would however herald the introduction of public bagging and tagging, health certification and so on Orwellian 1984 style.   Insurers might also be prepared to insure people who have been vaccinated, but then that would largely come down to their knowledge of any vaccine and its proven (or not) efficacy.   Let's be real here.   If Influenza were more of a killer disease than it is, insurers would not insure people for all the associated costs based on them having had a Flu Shot as the science tells us that Flu shots are extremely ineffective (preventing only 1 person in 71 vaccinated from getting Flu).   So any COVID-19 vaccine is first going to have to be monitored and studied to prove its effectiveness imo before insurers will be happy to insure people on the basis of having been vaccinated.

 

There is a long road yet to iron out all such details imo

 

.

 

[clo]

2 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

I'm afraid to say the future of cruising as we know it looks extremely bleak at this point.   If not terminal.

 

I agree. I can't imagine anything that CDC and others would approve that would allow the cruise lines to operate without enormous losses. I believe they either shut down (probably for more than two years) or permanently.

[chipmaster]

2 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

Social Distancing is impossible on a cruise ship. 

 

How could you even operate lifts/elevators?!    How could you organise the long queues of 100s of people waiting to get into a lift for their solitary trip in it?   How could you organise people going up and down staircases spread apart by 2m or more?

How would you get 1000s of people into areas for the compulsory muster drills?

 

How would you manage long queues of 1000s of people all coming down for their evening meal, all having to be 2m apart whilst queuing?    As an example, P&O's cruise ship Aurora is 270m long.   She takes about 1800 passengers.  Even if the ship were only half capacity with 900 people, and if those people are split across 2 dining sittings (abolishing freedom dining) then you have 450 a sitting and needing to queue 2m apart.   They would be queuing up and down the entire length of the ship twice every night !!!     Plus of course the restaurants wouldn't be able to seat them sitting 2m apart.

 

Theatres would have to be ripped apart probably reduce to 1/3rd or 1/4 of their current capacity.   People wouldn't be able to get to the shows as a result. 

 

Coffee bars would be largely pointless.  They can't cope as it is now with high volumes of passengers.  Removing most tables to leave the rest 2m apart would cripple the service and just make it pointless.

 

Most ships are designed with walkways down each side of the ship.  None of them are really wide enough to ensure social distancing as people walk in both directions.  So you'd have to implement a circular directional system with people only ever walking in one direction.

 

Many of the prom decks that are thin would be useless and out of action. 

 

Sun beds would have to be reduced in numbers to prevent crowding and the decks would have to be marked out with car park like spaces so people knew where to put them.  The current practice of passengers dropping sunbeds wherever they liked, blocking walkways and the like would have to cease.

 

No.   There's simply no way social distancing could ever be implemented on cruise ships unless the passenger compliment was utterly reduced to the point where it wouldn't be profitable for the cruise lines (unless ticket prices became 2-3 times what they currently are).

 

The only way forward realistically is to treat COVID-19 like Flu or Norovirus and just agree that everyone will take their chances.

 

If someone gets it, isolate them immediately, put them off the ship at the next port but let everyone else carry on normally.

 

Unfortunately every subsequent port will likely refuse entry to the ship from that point onward so you'll just be cruising at sea.

 

Possibly the only way forward is mandated swab testing of all passengers on a daily basis and especially before they go ashore and as they get back on board.  What a faff that will be, standing in huge long lines of 1000s of people in the hot sunshine waiting to get back on board but not being able to because you need to be swabbed and wait for the test to produce its results before you can board again !  And imagine if that test was positive?!!   You'd be moved to one side, treated like a leper and someone else would have to go into your cabin get all your stuff, cram it into cases and bring it to you.

 

I'm afraid to say the future of cruising as we know it looks extremely bleak at this point.   If not terminal.

 

.

 

 

 

 

I took my first trip, the planes had maybe 20 on one flight and 50 on the second, funny as we lined up there was social distancing but once on the airplane that went out, not UA like jammed but especially on landing people still rushed and bunched at the exit.  

 

It was clear people weren't going to the lavatory, wonder why, LOL.     But social distancing ain't possible!

 

I think on a cruise even if they went 50% people are people, and they will herd,  herd immunity will be the only solution, or whatever you have will be spread to everyone as we saw with Nora and COVID19. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by chipmaster

[ducklite]

45 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

Your comments don't seem to be grounded in any facts.

 

(1)Countries are not requiring visitors arriving by air to have insurance. (Yes there still is some limited international air travel taking place even today.) Why would they require cruise passengers to be insured?

 

(2)The major cruise lines are not asking for, nor have they received any handouts from the US government as they are ineligible because they're incorporated in foreign countries. Their additional financial support during the pandemic crisis has come from the issuance of new stock, private equity investment, and negotiation of debt restructuring from their lenders.

 

(3) Your travel insurance can be extended to cover any pre or post cruise travel . We always do that and I believe most travelers who have a need for insurance and understand what the insurance covers do that. I speak from many years of experience in both the insurance and travel industries.

1) They could at the drop of a hat.  They should. In fact Florida should have absolutely refused anyone sick with COVID or on a sick ship who didn't have insurance.

2) At least one of them was reported to have suggested that they planned on asking. Carnival took a bailout from Florida by being allowed to continually dump sick people--some without insurance--in our hospitals.

 

3)  I've always found better insurance for a lower cost than what cruise lines offer through their agents.  Perhaps if agents are licensed insurance brokers as well, they might be offering other options.

[Aquahound]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I think many TAs make you sign a disclaimer if you turn down buying insurance saying that you were offered and turned it down. 

 

Cruise lines have started do that as well.  When I booked my last cruise online (HAL), there was a block about insurance.  If checked no, there was another block I had to acknowledge and confirm my choice.