Might The CDC Require Cruise Ships to Adopt Grocery Store Traffic Rules?

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, 2wheelin said:

Is there any data to show that one way aisles have cut down on the infection rate in stores?

 

I'm not even sure the one way aisles are a requirement area because some large grocers in our area don't have them.   If I went down the wrong way it was because I missed the sign on the floor.  Now that I know they are there I typically follow.  Someone doesn't, I don't freak out.    I suppose they can help with distancing.   But promoting rules just to have  rule is of course nuts.    

[clo]

26 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

Ikea

We are avid Ikea shoppers and I think their one-way's work great. But, ya know, if people refuse to comply, when whatcha gonna do 😞 

[clo]

3 minutes ago, ldubs said:

But promoting rules just to have  rule is of course nuts.    

I don't have any sense that that's happening, do you?

[ilikeanswers]

19 minutes ago, ldubs said:

Someone doesn't, I don't freak out. I suppose they can help with distancing. But promoting rules just to have rule is of course nuts.    

 

Whatever we impose should be useful and I am no fan of security theatre. At the same time I think some people are a bit over reacting to the introduction of one way aisles. There a far worst inconveniences than being asked to walk a certain direction down an aisle😳. 

[Me by the Sea]

To those advocating one way aisles (actual case from day one of this method, out here:)

- You go in the store to purchase one item.  You know exactly where it is.  

- Using the most direct path, you would come close to 3 other shoppers/store personnel.  

- Using the “follow the arrows” you now walk back and forth through aisles, coming close to 16 people.

- You’re older with arthritis, so the extended walking is extremely painful. You can barely make it back to the car.

 

This is not helpful!

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, Kate Redden said:

p.S. - ask the CDC why we have to follow these rules but thousands of protesters do not?

Perhaps it is because a cruise ship is under CDC jurisdiction, while protesters are not?  Whatever rules a state has regarding masks and social distancing is the state's decision, perhaps based on the CDC's recommendations, perhaps not.  And, therefore, enforcement of these rules would be a decision again of the state.

[Pyrate13]

In my opinion this whole one way aisle thing is ridiculous. We go down an aisle, (following the arrow) and there are a half a dozen others in the aisle, I'm not supposed to pass them because there will be less than 6 feet between us and they are standing there trying to decide what item they want. If I do pass them then  I'm taking the chance of getting the virus from being too close. Sorry, I'm not standing around waiting for the aisle to clear, I'll pass them or turn around and disregard the stupid arrows.

 

On a ship it's even more ridiculous. If my cabin is at the end, or even middle, of a dead end corridor how can I only go one way? Either I can go down to enter my room or reverse that to get out of my room. You can't do both if it's one way. If cabin corridors are not one way then why bother with other corridors? You'll be passing many other folks in your cabin corridor any way. Besides, on some ships, if the corridor you're on is one way then you have to go a different route to get to other areas because they are the only corridors that lead to where you are heading.

 

Sometimes rules, or whatever else you want to call them, are not thought out or truly beneficial, they're just a knee jerk reaction to make people think something good is being done.

 

JMHO

[ontheweb]

48 minutes ago, Pyrate13 said:

In my opinion this whole one way aisle thing is ridiculous. We go down an aisle, (following the arrow) and there are a half a dozen others in the aisle, I'm not supposed to pass them because there will be less than 6 feet between us and they are standing there trying to decide what item they want. If I do pass them then  I'm taking the chance of getting the virus from being too close. Sorry, I'm not standing around waiting for the aisle to clear, I'll pass them or turn around and disregard the stupid arrows.

 

On a ship it's even more ridiculous. If my cabin is at the end, or even middle, of a dead end corridor how can I only go one way? Either I can go down to enter my room or reverse that to get out of my room. You can't do both if it's one way. If cabin corridors are not one way then why bother with other corridors? You'll be passing many other folks in your cabin corridor any way. Besides, on some ships, if the corridor you're on is one way then you have to go a different route to get to other areas because they are the only corridors that lead to where you are heading.

 

Sometimes rules, or whatever else you want to call them, are not thought out or truly beneficial, they're just a knee jerk reaction to make people think something good is being done.

 

JMHO

I also find the problem of other shoppers lingering in the aisle. And since I go early at a time that the store is supposed to be only for seniors or others at risk, I often find store employees in the aisle filling shelves. Again how do you only go one way and not pass near them.

 

And then there are the store employees who walk the "wrong" way down the aisles.

[navybankerteacher]

9 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

Is there any data to show that one way aisles have cut down on the infection rate in stores?

There sure is.  Areas like CT, NJ and N.Y.  where there has been widespread and general compliance with precautions like one way aisles  have seen reductions, while other areas where people have resisted or ignored precautions like one way aisles have seen increases in infections.    Of course, it can be argued that it must have been other things and not one way aisles — but that is simply being stupid:  you cannot pick and choose what precautions you like - you just need to take reasonable steps —- and one way aisles - if you stop to think - are not that difficult to have, and they clearly do help in maintaining distancing.

 

Reduced infection rate IS data.

[ilikeanswers]

The more I think about it I see one of the problems is shops and cruise ships were not made for one way access. Ikea is made and designed with one way access in mind whereas trying to retrofit infrastucture to become one way is probably not going to be as effective🤔.

[JAMESCC]

There sure is.  Areas like CT, NJ and N.Y.  where there has been widespread and general compliance with precautions like one way aisles  have seen reductions, while other areas where people have resisted or ignored precautions like one way aisles have seen increases in infections.    Of course, it can be argued that it must have been other things and not one way aisles — but that is simply being stupid:  you cannot pick and choose what precautions you like - you just need to take reasonable steps —- and one way aisles - if you stop to think - are not that difficult to have, and they clearly do help in maintaining distancing.

 

Reduced infection rate IS data.

I disagree with some of that because there are people already in the aisle and if they are taking their sweet time trying up figure out just what cereal they want you have to pass them anyway. I'm not saying it's a crazy idea but not exactly practical in my opinion. As long as we have face covering and within reason stay away from each I think it's ok. I don't mind staying away from people, kind of my mission normally. I'm only joking about that part. [emoji1787]

 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[Pyrate13]

Where do we find the data that specifically proves that one way aisles equates to a reduced infection rate? If one way aisles were the only thing being done then you could say it was data. Unless it can be proven its just speculation, not data.

[chengkp75]

21 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, it can be argued that it must have been other things and not one way aisles — but that is simply being stupid:  you cannot pick and choose what precautions you like - you just need to take reasonable steps —- and one way aisles - if you stop to think - are not that difficult to have, and they clearly do help in maintaining distancing.

Of course you can pick and choose what precautions are needed.  That is scientific method.  You study one thing that can have an effect on your process (one way aisles being the one effect, and the process is covid transmission), to determine if it is effective, or useless.  You don't say "here are a bunch of things to do, and since collectively they reduce transmission, then therefore all of them individually are effective".    And, from my personal experience in a grocery store, I am not convinced that the "traffic lanes" do anything to improve social distancing over restricting the number of patrons at any one time, as many "forget" something and will make the "quick dash" the wrong way down the aisle to get "that one item", and as noted you still end up passing folks in an aisle.  I worry far more about the folks following the traffic pattern while not wearing a mask than those who go the wrong way up the aisle.  What is the difference between meeting someone coming the other direction or passing someone stopped in the aisle?  The act of reducing the number of patrons will have far more influence on distance between patrons, simply through random dispersion.

[navybankerteacher]

41 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Of course you can pick and choose what precautions are needed.  That is scientific method.  You study one thing that can have an effect on your process (one way aisles being the one effect, and the process is covid transmission), to determine if it is effective, or useless.  You don't say "here are a bunch of things to do, and since collectively they reduce transmission, then therefore all of them individually are effective".    And, from my personal experience in a grocery store, I am not convinced that the "traffic lanes" do anything to improve social distancing over restricting the number of patrons at any one time, as many "forget" something and will make the "quick dash" the wrong way down the aisle to get "that one item", and as noted you still end up passing folks in an aisle.  I worry far more about the folks following the traffic pattern while not wearing a mask than those who go the wrong way up the aisle.  What is the difference between meeting someone coming the other direction or passing someone stopped in the aisle?  The act of reducing the number of patrons will have far more influence on distance between patrons, simply through random dispersion.

Sure, there is not always compliance - but one way aisles do have SOME effect in reducing inter-personal contact.  Face masks may not seriously protect the individual wearing them (but it is absurd to claim that they offer NO protection) but when enough people wear them they obviously contain infection.  Reducing patrons is not a magic bullet - but again it helps. It can be argued that six feet is not sufficient distancing - but it surely is better than none.

 

My point is:  while there are weaknesses in every step - all taken together, by the community at large surely do work.  Communities which practice such approaches clearly do better than those that do not. Leaving it up to individuals to pick and choose undermines the efficacy of the entire effort.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Pyrate13 said:

Where do we find the data that specifically proves that one way aisles equates to a reduced infection rate? If one way aisles were the only thing being done then you could say it was data. Unless it can be proven its just speculation, not data.

And add to that where do we find that shoppers (and store personnel) are actually adhering to the one way aisles?

[Pyrate13]

"but one way aisles do have SOME effect in reducing inter-personal contact." 

 

Again, where's the data that proves this? Pure speculation. Just because you, or someone else, claims it works doesn't make it so. It certainly doesn't appear to reduce contact in any store I have been in so... Do I do it, if possible yes, but with flexibility to not do it depending on circumstances. Do I believe it makes any difference, no, not really but I don't have any data either way.

[Toofarfromthesea]

44 minutes ago, Pyrate13 said:

"but one way aisles do have SOME effect in reducing inter-personal contact." 

 

Again, where's the data that proves this? Pure speculation. Just because you, or someone else, claims it works doesn't make it so. It certainly doesn't appear to reduce contact in any store I have been in so... Do I do it, if possible yes, but with flexibility to not do it depending on circumstances. Do I believe it makes any difference, no, not really but I don't have any data either way.

 

Very little of what we are told is science is actually science.  It is mostly the OPINIONS of scientists, not science.

The Society of Actuaries, an organization I was a member of, has as it's motto a famous quote from John Ruskin:

The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions.

Very little of that has actuated our response.  "Observational" studies are not science.  At best they form the fodder of hypotheses.  Which then have to be tested by the scientific method.

[clo]

6 hours ago, Kate Redden said:

- Using the “follow the arrows” you now walk back and forth through aisles, coming close to 16 people.

 

If you know where it is, why not go down just one aisle to get to it?

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, clo said:

If you know where it is, why not go down just one aisle to get to it?

Because if it is in an aisle marked for you not to enter at the end you are standing at, you need to go up the next aisle and then down the one where your item is.  So, two aisles.  Even if you are at the proper end of the aisle, you can't go up that aisle, get the item and head for the front of the store back down the same aisle, so again, two aisles.  More aisles, more chance of interacting with people.

[clo]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

My point is:  while there are weaknesses in every step - all taken together, by the community at large surely do work.  Communities which practice such approaches clearly do better than those that do not. Leaving it up to individuals to pick and choose undermines the efficacy of the entire effort.

Is it stubborness or arrogance that causes people to not get this? The times have changed. Period. Will life ever be like it was before? Who knows? In the meantime I'm going to do it all. And be royally annoyed that some refuse. And I've almost no doubt that cruise lines won't do any of these 'bricks and mortar' kinda things cause they are going to be unwilling to enforce them.

[clo]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Because if it is in an aisle marked for you not to enter at the end you are standing at, you need to go up the next aisle and then down the one where your item is.  So, two aisles.  Even if you are at the proper end of the aisle, you can't go up that aisle, get the item and head for the front of the store back down the same aisle, so again, two aisles.  More aisles, more chance of interacting with people.

Right two aisles. I don't think I've ever seen eight people in a grocery aisles. That's the math to get to 16, right?

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Pyrate13 said:

"but one way aisles do have SOME effect in reducing inter-personal contact." 

 

Again, where's the data that proves this? Pure speculation. Just because you, or someone else, claims it works doesn't make it so. It certainly doesn't appear to reduce contact in any store I have been in so... Do I do it, if possible yes, but with flexibility to not do it depending on circumstances. Do I believe it makes any difference, no, not really but I don't have any data either way.

My experience and the experience of others I have seen shows that having one way aisles does reduce SOME interpersonal proximity.  That is empirical - it might not have a massive impact, but only someone determined not to see would be unable to recognize that reducing SOME proximity must have SOME effect in reducing contagion.  

 

It is is getting tiresome hearing people claiming that this or that precaution has NO good effect — but I am getting used to it.  It does seem that a lot of people making that claim are either from thinly populated areas which have not had significant COVID exposure or they are from areas which are experiencing upticks in new infections.  

 

It can be seen that they are either uninformed about,  or inclined to contribute to, the problem.

 

But, back on topic:  cruise ships do not lend themselves to the sort of one way passages being discussed here, and the people who are most determined to get back to cruising as soon as possible (COVID be damned) are likely to be the least inclined to follow such protocols.  There seems little point in trying it.

Edited June 15, 2020 by navybankerteacher

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, clo said:

Right two aisles. I don't think I've ever seen eight people in a grocery aisles. That's the math to get to 16, right?

Yet, that is more a function of the limited number allowed in the store, rather than the one way traffic scheme, because in the "old days" depending on the time and day, there could be 8 people in an aisle.

[Pyrate13]

Some people seem to think they are the only ones informed and their opinion is the only one that counts. Oh well, too bad if they are annoyed. Their I'm right attitude is tiresome.

[clo]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yet, that is more a function of the limited number allowed in the store, rather than the one way traffic scheme, because in the "old days" depending on the time and day, there could be 8 people in an aisle.

Actually most of the grocery stores we go to don't limit numbers. TJs still does and of course Costco but beyond that it's the exception rather than the rule.