Mask Only Charters or Lines

[ew101]

It's boating season here, and I have been inviting one or two friends to boat with us.  We have a PhD epidemiologist on the team and we have a mask rule and the open air cockpit is about six by eight feet.   I will say wearing a mask detracts from the onboard experience maybe 20%.  It is like wearing boat shoes when barefoot is best or a life jacket.  What has ruined everything are the comments and begging and snide remarks from the non-mask people.  "Is it ok if I don't wear a mask?  Why are you wearing a mask?  Do you know masks don't work" etc.  

 

I think the cruise lines (the smart ones anyhow) are agonizing over this- do you require masks and annoy/offend/alienate half your customers?  

 

The GLBT (and I have heard naturist and rock fan) communities have a solution here- charter the whole vessel.  So you sign away your right to infect others in a paper that you will wear a mask correctly outside your cabin always and refrain from snide comments, gestures, harassing staff etc.   It's like smoking in your cabin or lighting candles or handing beer to minors  we'll put you off the ship or in the brig.   

 

If everyone on board "believes" - the risk of transmission drops like a rock.   There is a rule on public health data - theories are theories but very large sample sizes over the long term become increasingly solid.  We can pester the lines to turn up the fresh vs recycled air dampers, etc.  

 

Those who find this unacceptable can rant from their living rooms but won't ruin things aboard and can't infect anyone.  Those aboard and the crew can enjoy time at sea - a reduced but still in my opinion satisfactory one.   If you create a new line/brand then all the angst can be deflected from your core brands.  

 

 

 

 

[sanger727]

A masked line/charter doesn't fix the main issues facing cruising right now. 1. large gathering of people in the port cities for embarkation and debarkation, 2. finding islands that will allow thousands of people from the US to swarm their island and the testing requirements that would go along with that, 3. dealing with someone who is found to be infected on the ship in a way where they won't end up with the whole ship getting quarantined again, 4. even if masks are required in public areas and this is followed, there is still an issue of how you accommodate dining venues/bars on a crowded ship where wearing a mask is impractical.

[sverigecruiser]

 

It is very easy for the cruiselines. They can say that everyone has to wear a mask and thoose who don't want to wear a mask shall not book. It isn't more difficult than that.

[klfrodo]

I like your idea in theory and appreciate you bravely posting your idea on CruiseCritic.

 

I do believe that Sanger727 hit on some viable barriers though. A large percentage of those people being safe and following suggested guidelines are flying to the port thus increasing their exposure potential and other valid concerns.

[chipmaster]

While the concept is sound, you know humans and human behavior is far from that.  In small groups this is possible, but for big business only look at the viral videos of Trader Joe's / Costco's to see how epic the problem is.  Even in the far east where the norms and expectations are more tightly follow-ed there are examples of rule breakers.

 

What is most amazing here is the loss of any rational thinking and compromise/sacrifice.  But all it takes is for one sheep to break and then all the other see it as empowerment. 

[lenquixote66]

9 hours ago, ew101 said:

It's boating season here, and I have been inviting one or two friends to boat with us.  We have a PhD epidemiologist on the team and we have a mask rule and the open air cockpit is about six by eight feet.   I will say wearing a mask detracts from the onboard experience maybe 20%.  It is like wearing boat shoes when barefoot is best or a life jacket.  What has ruined everything are the comments and begging and snide remarks from the non-mask people.  "Is it ok if I don't wear a mask?  Why are you wearing a mask?  Do you know masks don't work" etc.  

 

I think the cruise lines (the smart ones anyhow) are agonizing over this- do you require masks and annoy/offend/alienate half your customers?  

 

The GLBT (and I have heard naturist and rock fan) communities have a solution here- charter the whole vessel.  So you sign away your right to infect others in a paper that you will wear a mask correctly outside your cabin always and refrain from snide comments, gestures, harassing staff etc.   It's like smoking in your cabin or lighting candles or handing beer to minors  we'll put you off the ship or in the brig.   

 

If everyone on board "believes" - the risk of transmission drops like a rock.   There is a rule on public health data - theories are theories but very large sample sizes over the long term become increasingly solid.  We can pester the lines to turn up the fresh vs recycled air dampers, etc.  

 

Those who find this unacceptable can rant from their living rooms but won't ruin things aboard and can't infect anyone.  Those aboard and the crew can enjoy time at sea - a reduced but still in my opinion satisfactory one.   If you create a new line/brand then all the angst can be deflected from your core brands.  

 

 

 

 

Presumably you are on a large boat otherwise it would not be feasible to social distance.

[ew101]

The sailboat in question is over 30 feet.  One in each corner of the cockpit, one below deck at a time.  Masks 100% even outdoors - I feel we are good.   We are the only ones in a 200 vessel marina wearing masks however.    100% of our boating friends think we are wrong and brainwashed- even several healthcare providers.  

 

I don't agree that air travel is dangerous with masks nor airports.  Grocery shopping is not inherently dangerous.   But as was pointed out, you have to be "all in" on droplet prevention.  If you keep the "it's a hoax" people off the ship, the odds get getter that it will work.   It is not a sure thing however.   If it looks and feels aboard like a crowded bar in Miami or Phoenix- there will be transmission.  

 

There will need to be changes - I think the theater is a no, and bars are a no and indoor table service will be dodgy.  Stateroom service might be OK if you are out an hour.  AC flow will need adjustment in public areas for less recirculation.  

 

It's a new world.  

 

 

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, ew101 said:

The sailboat in question is over 30 feet.  One in each corner of the cockpit, one below deck at a time.  Masks 100% even outdoors - I feel we are good.   We are the only ones in a 200 vessel marina wearing masks however.    100% of our boating friends think we are wrong and brainwashed- even several healthcare providers.  

 

I don't agree that air travel is dangerous with masks nor airports.  Grocery shopping is not inherently dangerous.   But as was pointed out, you have to be "all in" on droplet prevention.  If you keep the "it's a hoax" people off the ship, the odds get getter that it will work.   It is not a sure thing however.   If it looks and feels aboard like a crowded bar in Miami or Phoenix- there will be transmission.  

 

There will need to be changes - I think the theater is a no, and bars are a no and indoor table service will be dodgy.  Stateroom service might be OK if you are out an hour.  AC flow will need adjustment in public areas for less recirculation.  

 

It's a new world.  

 

 

 

I think your point of getting a bunch of like minded people together is valid.   Sadly, the practical problems of actually doing this are huge.   

[John Bull]

The OP's suggestion of chartering the whole vessel works for the size of vessel quoted (around 30ft).

And for that sort of vessel Sanger's worthy comments re large crowds don't apply  

 

But I've counted the number of my friends on Facebook.

Unfortunately it's well short of 5,000 

 

JB 

[sanger727]

6 hours ago, ew101 said:

 

 

There will need to be changes - I think the theater is a no, and bars are a no and indoor table service will be dodgy.  Stateroom service might be OK if you are out an hour.  AC flow will need adjustment in public areas for less recirculation.  

 

 

But now you are changing the product by much more than simply wearing masks. I assume the gym, karaoke, and other activities will be closed as well. So it’s no longer a ‘cruise’ where everyone wears masks and plays along. It’s a boat transport service with no gym, no shows, few activities, and very limited bars and dining. I’m not entirely against wearing a mask on a cruise if it came down to that. But this new product being described is one I would not pay for. I enjoy using the gym, going to shows, hanging out in the lounges with a cocktail, and the MDR and specialty restaurants. Take those away and it’s just a terribly long and expensive ferry.

 

i see where you are going with this. But I don’t think that mask wearing by itself fixes the problem. And once you institute enough measures to fix the problem, the product has changed so fundamentally that I don’t think enough people will purchase cabins to make it worth the cost of sailing.

Edited July 18, 2020 by sanger727

[ew101]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

. And once you institute enough measures to fix the problem, the product has changed so fundamentally that I don’t think enough people will purchase cabins to make it worth the cost of sailing.

I think most passengers and the CLIA are 100% behind this position.  COVID-19 violates most of the business practices and policies of the cruise industry of 2019, which was highly successful and growing at 6% annually.   

 

"Turn back the clock we have to re-open business" has been tried at large scale in Texas and Arizona.  You end up taxing your ICU staffs and renting chilled storage lockers for bodies.  The cruising demographic is sometimes older and can't always tough this off. 

 

If I ran a cruise line I would be developing an inherently safe product that ran at 40-50% capacity (including service staff).   Most customers would hate it but I'd go.   I'll tell you a secret- cruise profit margins were good a ship 40% full might come close to break even- you are already paying the mortgage and the core crew and to run an engine or two.    As we have seen with Pullmantur, zero revenue is a hard road.  

 

Thinking of the QM2, I can sit on my balcony, have lunch in or from the Golden Lion and and high tea maybe on the promenade.  Dinner might be a buffet - outdoors  (another secret -COVID-19 spreads poorly on surfaces).   I can get eggs benedict or full English.  I might have to pour my own tea.  The early ocean crossings had little formal entertainment.   Could a three piece orchestra play up under the funnel and we could dance with our partners? I think so.   Might it be too hot/cold/raining- yep.  

 

It will feel like a ferry or an adventure.  Victorians loved adventure.    But packing into crowded indoor spaces with the A/C on 80% recirculated air is for me a no.  I visit my favorite restaurant for take out a few times a week.  The staff see me walk and and put on masks.  

 

So the close personal staff interactions we are used to are a no.  The elbow to elbow at the bar a no.   There are 500 reasons this can't possibly work.  But consider the alternative.  

 

 

 

[K32682]

22 hours ago, ew101 said:

It's boating season here, and I have been inviting one or two friends to boat with us.  We have a PhD epidemiologist on the team and we have a mask rule and the open air cockpit is about six by eight feet.   I will say wearing a mask detracts from the onboard experience maybe 20%.  It is like wearing boat shoes when barefoot is best or a life jacket.  What has ruined everything are the comments and begging and snide remarks from the non-mask people.  "Is it ok if I don't wear a mask?  Why are you wearing a mask?  Do you know masks don't work" etc.  

 

I think the cruise lines (the smart ones anyhow) are agonizing over this- do you require masks and annoy/offend/alienate half your customers?  

 

The GLBT (and I have heard naturist and rock fan) communities have a solution here- charter the whole vessel.  So you sign away your right to infect others in a paper that you will wear a mask correctly outside your cabin always and refrain from snide comments, gestures, harassing staff etc.   It's like smoking in your cabin or lighting candles or handing beer to minors  we'll put you off the ship or in the brig.   

 

If everyone on board "believes" - the risk of transmission drops like a rock.   There is a rule on public health data - theories are theories but very large sample sizes over the long term become increasingly solid.  We can pester the lines to turn up the fresh vs recycled air dampers, etc.  

 

Those who find this unacceptable can rant from their living rooms but won't ruin things aboard and can't infect anyone.  Those aboard and the crew can enjoy time at sea - a reduced but still in my opinion satisfactory one.   If you create a new line/brand then all the angst can be deflected from your core brands.  

 

 

 

 

 

What will really alienate passengers is the risk of getting the virus from someone who wasn't masked, being denied ports because of an outbreak or being forced into quarantine because some moron didn't wear a mask after being told to. 

 

Stand your ground on the mask on your own boat.  Should some imbecile make a snide remark an appropriate response would be, "I have tested positive, am asymptomatic and shedding the virus. Do you really want me to take my mask off and breath in your face?" 

[jollyjones]

7 minutes ago, K32682 said:

 

Stand your ground on the mask on your own boat.  Should some imbecile make a snide remark an appropriate response would be, "I have tested positive, am asymptomatic and shedding the virus. Do you really want me to take my mask off and breath in your face?" 

 

You could also ask:

If you were having major surgery, would you expect your surgical team to wear masks? 

If yes, why?

 

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, ew101 said:

I think most passengers and the CLIA are 100% behind this position.  COVID-19 violates most of the business practices and policies of the cruise industry of 2019, which was highly successful and growing at 6% annually.   

 

"Turn back the clock we have to re-open business" has been tried at large scale in Texas and Arizona.  You end up taxing your ICU staffs and renting chilled storage lockers for bodies.  The cruising demographic is sometimes older and can't always tough this off. 

 

If I ran a cruise line I would be developing an inherently safe product that ran at 40-50% capacity (including service staff).   Most customers would hate it but I'd go.   I'll tell you a secret- cruise profit margins were good a ship 40% full might come close to break even- you are already paying the mortgage and the core crew and to run an engine or two.    As we have seen with Pullmantur, zero revenue is a hard road.  

 

Thinking of the QM2, I can sit on my balcony, have lunch in or from the Golden Lion and and high tea maybe on the promenade.  Dinner might be a buffet - outdoors  (another secret -COVID-19 spreads poorly on surfaces).   I can get eggs benedict or full English.  I might have to pour my own tea.  The early ocean crossings had little formal entertainment.   Could a three piece orchestra play up under the funnel and we could dance with our partners? I think so.   Might it be too hot/cold/raining- yep.  

 

It will feel like a ferry or an adventure.  Victorians loved adventure.    But packing into crowded indoor spaces with the A/C on 80% recirculated air is for me a no.  I visit my favorite restaurant for take out a few times a week.  The staff see me walk and and put on masks.  

 

So the close personal staff interactions we are used to are a no.  The elbow to elbow at the bar a no.   There are 500 reasons this can't possibly work.  But consider the alternative.  

 

 

 

perhaps there are lines with a subset of cruisers who would be attracted to this model. I wish them well if it works. It’s not for me. 

[donaldsc]

If you charter the whole ship and everyone does not wear a mask,  this just means that you do not give a damn about the crew.  You can infect all of your fellow passengers if you do not care about them but the crew has to live on the ship after your infected group leaves.  

 

DON

[GlamorousGirl]

In my experience wherever masks are being worn people do NOT social distance. They assume the mask is protecting them and use it as an excuse. It is social distancing that is the critical factor. I always social distance.

 

I don’t throw fits in public stores. I just refuse to give my business to anyplace that requires masks, so they lose money. Any cruise line that makes the same requirement will also lose my business until the requirement is lifted, that simple. There’s other cruise lines and other ways to travel. 
 

How do the pro-mask people expect this to work in the dining room or at bars? It can’t! But what CAN work is social distancing. Use every other table in the dining room and make menus contact-free (scan with your phone.) In other public areas enforce social distancing. Put more loungers on the promenade and less at the lido. Close off every other chair in the theater. Etc. that’s the ONLY way to effectively handle it, not masks people take off every time they eat or drink - which some people like to do non stop on cruises.

[sanger727]

3 hours ago, GlamorousGirl said:

In my experience wherever masks are being worn people do NOT social distance. They assume the mask is protecting them and use it as an excuse. It is social distancing that is the critical factor. I always social distance.

 

I don’t throw fits in public stores. I just refuse to give my business to anyplace that requires masks, so they lose money. Any cruise line that makes the same requirement will also lose my business until the requirement is lifted, that simple. There’s other cruise lines and other ways to travel. 

That’s becoming less and less of an option these days. In my county masks are mandated. So it’s not even up to the stores anymore, even store/restaurant/business has to mandate it. IMO masks are helpful because it’s impossible to completely social distance at all times (Ie passing someone in a tight corridor, having someone stand too close to you in a line, etc). 

Edited July 19, 2020 by sanger727

[K32682]

11 hours ago, GlamorousGirl said:

In my experience wherever masks are being worn people do NOT social distance. They assume the mask is protecting them and use it as an excuse. It is social distancing that is the critical factor. I always social distance.

 

I don’t throw fits in public stores. I just refuse to give my business to anyplace that requires masks, so they lose money. Any cruise line that makes the same requirement will also lose my business until the requirement is lifted, that simple. There’s other cruise lines and other ways to travel. 
 

How do the pro-mask people expect this to work in the dining room or at bars? It can’t! But what CAN work is social distancing. Use every other table in the dining room and make menus contact-free (scan with your phone.) In other public areas enforce social distancing. Put more loungers on the promenade and less at the lido. Close off every other chair in the theater. Etc. that’s the ONLY way to effectively handle it, not masks people take off every time they eat or drink - which some people like to do non stop on cruises.

 

You mentioned in another thread that you are married to a Canadian and are currently in Canada under the spousal exemption. Where are you located? If Quebec masks are mandatory indoors across the province.  In Ontario, most of the province requires them or soon will.  It's great that you social distance.  Put on a mask too. 

[ew101]

On 7/19/2020 at 12:53 AM, GlamorousGirl said:

In my experience wherever masks are being worn people do NOT social distance. They assume the mask is protecting them and use it as an excuse. It is social distancing that is the critical factor. I always social distance.

rom 

This was the 1.0 reason way back when to not wear masks in the first place.   And remember getting the virus from mail and groceries?  I have not see a lot of data/headlines on mask failures- have you?  The data I see is on "failure to wear masks" - the masks make person to person short range direct droplet transmission far less efficient.  Staying six feet apart is helpful also.  

 

Preventing person to person direct virus transmission on cruise ships will be a challenge but not impossible.  It is easier if everyone cooperates.   

 

[donaldsc]

On 7/18/2020 at 11:53 PM, GlamorousGirl said:

In my experience wherever masks are being worn people do NOT social distance. They assume the mask is protecting them and use it as an excuse. It is social distancing that is the critical factor. I always social distance.

 

I don’t throw fits in public stores. I just refuse to give my business to anyplace that requires masks, so they lose money. Any cruise line that makes the same requirement will also lose my business until the requirement is lifted, that simple. There’s other cruise lines and other ways to travel. 
 

How do the pro-mask people expect this to work in the dining room or at bars? It can’t! But what CAN work is social distancing. Use every other table in the dining room and make menus contact-free (scan with your phone.) In other public areas enforce social distancing. Put more loungers on the promenade and less at the lido. Close off every other chair in the theater. Etc. that’s the ONLY way to effectively handle it, not masks people take off every time they eat or drink - which some people like to do non stop on cruises.

 

I find it interesting considering your mask attitude that you come from St. Petersburg Florida.    Florida is one of the Covid hotspots in the country.  Pinellas county had 12,000 new cases on July 19.

 

DON

[chengkp75]

On 7/19/2020 at 1:53 AM, GlamorousGirl said:

In my experience wherever masks are being worn people do NOT social distance. They assume the mask is protecting them and use it as an excuse. It is social distancing that is the critical factor. I always social distance.

Then those people are ignorant of the facts and the science.  Let's say social distancing reduces potential exposure by 50%.  Let's say wearing a mask reduces potential exposure by 50%.  So, doing one or the other gives you a 50/50 chance of getting the virus.  Fine, if that is your risk threshold.  But, when combined, with both people wearing a mask, and social distancing, you reduce the risk to 12.5% (50% three times), or a 87.5% chance of not getting infected.  That is a much more preferred risk threshold.

 

You are correct, that masks cannot work in restaurants and bars, so there, social distancing must be enforced, but you then have to accept the higher risk factor from that behavior (eating or drinking in public).  And, it has been shown that in public places like restaurants and bars, and even grocery stores, that air currents from HVAC systems can transmit the virus further than the accepted "cough/sneeze" radius that is the accepted social distance.  So, social distancing is not the panacea that you proclaim.  It is important, as is mask wearing, but both need to be practiced to slow the spread of the virus.

[K32682]

22 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

I find it interesting considering your mask attitude that you come from St. Petersburg Florida.    Florida is one of the Covid hotspots in the country.  Pinellas county had 12,000 new cases on July 19.

 

DON

 

In the thread on Canadian-only cruises she mentioned being married to a Canadian and was recently let into Canada due to the recent spousal exemption.  According to her she is living in a community not far from London, Ontario, and the entire region has a mandatory mask requirement.  

[sverigecruiser]

 

It will be interesting when they evaluate everything after this is over. How did we managed to flatten the curve without wearing masks? Still no signs of a second wave here, why? Our curve is still going down since the peak in April, why is that happening when we aren't wearing masks?  

 

Too many people has defenitely died here but shouldn't it be even worse when we aren't wearing masks?

[sanger727]

4 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

It will be interesting when they evaluate everything after this is over. How did we managed to flatten the curve without wearing masks? Still no signs of a second wave here, why? Our curve is still going down since the peak in April, why is that happening when we aren't wearing masks?  

 

Too many people has defenitely died here but shouldn't it be even worse when we aren't wearing masks?

 

I had read  that in Sweden people were complying with the social distancing voluntarily? That could potentially explain it. In the US a good number of people never got onboard with the restrictions so the day things started opening back up it was no masks, no social distancing, just go back to the "old normal". 

[sverigecruiser]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

I had read  that in Sweden people were complying with the social distancing voluntarily? That could potentially explain it. In the US a good number of people never got onboard with the restrictions so the day things started opening back up it was no masks, no social distancing, just go back to the "old normal". 

 

Yes, most people in Sweden are complying with social distancing voluntarily. We also have rules to avoid bars and restaurants to be too crowded.

 

There are things we haven't done. We haven't closed the schools for the youngest children. We don't wear masks. Shops, bars and restaurants have been open all the time.

 

Why isn't it worse than it is? I still don't know anyone with confirmed Covid-19 and my life goes on like before. I don't say that it's over yet but there are no signs that it's getting worse.

 

How important can the masks be? Is the voluntarily social distancing we practise enough? As I have said before too many people have died here but right now we are doing fine.