Daniel A Posted January 15, 2021 Author #226 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Would somebody who is so old and frail that they wouldn't survive mild side effects from a vaccine be likely to sail on a cruise ship or be out in society? I'd be curious to know how the Norwegians defined 'old' and 'frail.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare pinotlover Posted January 15, 2021 #227 Share Posted January 15, 2021 24 minutes ago, Daniel A said: Would somebody who is so old and frail that they wouldn't survive mild side effects from a vaccine be likely to sail on a cruise ship or be out in society? I'd be curious to know how the Norwegians defined 'old' and 'frail.' Oceania has passengers that refuse the yellow fever vaccine because of their conditions. I have seen numerous people on cruise ships that would meet the “ old and frail” definition by most everyone’s standards. The walker shuffle. You should hear some of the stories from my friend a cruise ship medical officer ( doctor). The numbers that don’t know when to say “ when” are surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadzone1003 Posted January 15, 2021 #228 Share Posted January 15, 2021 52 minutes ago, Daniel A said: Moderna was the only vaccine to show that even if you were in the 5.5% where it wasn't effective in preventing the disease, the vaccine blocks the illness from becoming severe. Pfizer didn't look at that factor so it's an unknown at this point. If I have a choice, I'll go with Moderna. Pfizer is most likely to work the same way. Just so you understand, don't think if you are among the 94.5% that you will not get sick. You will get sick if exposed to a high enough viral load like what you will see in an ICU. Don't think you have a bullet-proof vest. If someone who is sick, coughs or sneezes right at you, the viral load will probably be large enough to get you sick. You may not die, you may not even have to go to the hospital, but you will probably get sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njhorseman Posted January 15, 2021 #229 Share Posted January 15, 2021 17 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said: Pfizer is most likely to work the same way. Just so you understand, don't think if you are among the 94.5% that you will not get sick. You will get sick if exposed to a high enough viral load like what you will see in an ICU. Don't think you have a bullet-proof vest. If someone who is sick, coughs or sneezes right at you, the viral load will probably be large enough to get you sick. You may not die, you may not even have to go to the hospital, but you will probably get sick. Really. Can we have a link to some documentation for what you're saying? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted January 15, 2021 Author #230 Share Posted January 15, 2021 20 minutes ago, pinotlover said: I have seen numerous people on cruise ships that would meet the “ old and frail” definition by most everyone’s standards. My point was that this was this article gave no reference point other than 'old and frail.' If you were to ask most college age people, they would probably define us as 'old and frail.' To quote the article, “If you are very frail, you should probably not be vaccinated,” Steinar Madsen at the Norwegian Medicines Agency said at a webinar on corona vaccine for journalists on Thursday." That wasn't the most scientific definition I've ever seen. A little more information would be helpful in making informed decisions impacting life and death... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulchili Posted January 15, 2021 #231 Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, pinotlover said: Decision was to vaccinate them all. I believe a certain, hopefully small, mortality rate was always expected from the decision. With most any decision of this nature there had to be an acceptable mortality rate. A large number of NH residents have been vaccinated in US and many other countries by now yet no mortality has been reported (so far) other than the ones in Norway. Edited January 15, 2021 by Paulchili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulchili Posted January 15, 2021 #232 Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, pinotlover said: Oceania has passengers that refuse the yellow fever vaccine because of their conditions. I Apples & oranges. Yellow fever is a LIVE attenuated (weakened form) of the virus itself; COVID vaccine does not contain the virus itself You can actually get YF from the vaccine but cannot get COVID from the vaccine. Edited January 15, 2021 by Paulchili 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadzone1003 Posted January 16, 2021 #233 Share Posted January 16, 2021 58 minutes ago, njhorseman said: Really. Can we have a link to some documentation for what you're saying? No, I can't, but people are getting an impression that these vaccines will protect them 100% if they happened to be in the 94.5% group. Do you believe that if you have been vaccinated (weeks after the 2nd shot) and someone who has covid19 coughs or sneezes onto your face, that you will not get sick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ORV Posted January 16, 2021 #234 Share Posted January 16, 2021 15 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said: No, I can't, but people are getting an impression that these vaccines will protect them 100% if they happened to be in the 94.5% group. Do you believe that if you have been vaccinated (weeks after the 2nd shot) and someone who has covid19 coughs or sneezes onto your face, that you will not get sick? So once again you're posting your opinions as matter of fact medical advice. Maybe you should change your handle to Dangerzone. You've learned this lesson well, I wonder where from.............. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadzone1003 Posted January 16, 2021 #235 Share Posted January 16, 2021 59 minutes ago, Paulchili said: A large number of NH residents have been vaccinated in US and many other countries by now yet no mortality has been reported (so far) other than the ones in Norway. So far so good, maybe it was just a bad batch of vaccine that they got. The story is still developing so let's see how it plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare pinotlover Posted January 16, 2021 #236 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Paulchili said: Apples & oranges. Yellow fever is a LIVE attenuated (weakened form) of the virus itself; COVID vaccine does not contain the virus itself You can actually get YF from the vaccine but cannot get COVID from the vaccine. Always some excuse. There does come a time, even if others refuse to recognize it. The cruise line position of being unable to store personal oxygen tanks will affect a portion of the old and frail on its own. If one can’t take necessary vaccines, that’s a huge indicator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulchili Posted January 16, 2021 #237 Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, pinotlover said: Always some excuse. There does come a time, even if others refuse to recognize it. It's apples and oranges on another level. If a passenger that cannot take YF vaccine and gets sick, it presents no danger to others. If that happens with COVID that is a whole different story. One is a contageous disease, the other one is not. Edited January 16, 2021 by Paulchili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njhorseman Posted January 16, 2021 #238 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, deadzone1003 said: No, I can't, but people are getting an impression that these vaccines will protect them 100% if they happened to be in the 94.5% group. Do you believe that if you have been vaccinated (weeks after the 2nd shot) and someone who has covid19 coughs or sneezes onto your face, that you will not get sick? Of course you can't.... What the 94.5 % efficacy rate means is that under study conditions your risk of being infected is 94.5% lower than someone who is not vaccinated. Does it mean that I absolutely won't get sick? No...but my chances of getting sick are tremendously reduced versus an unvaccinated person. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadzone1003 Posted January 16, 2021 #239 Share Posted January 16, 2021 2 hours ago, njhorseman said: Of course you can't.... What the 94.5 % efficacy rate means is that under study conditions your risk of being infected is 94.5% lower than someone who is not vaccinated. Does it mean that I absolutely won't get sick? No...but my chances of getting sick are tremendously reduced versus an unvaccinated person. One of our fellow cruisers was giving the impression that by getting vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine, for 5.5% of them the vaccine will not work, but they won't get as sick. So, it follows if they think they are in 94.5% category, they think they would not get sick. I'm just warning them not to think like that. I'm trying to tell them that even if vaccinated there is always will be a risk, however small, that they can still get it especially if they are exposed to a high enough viral load. I agree with what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvmovielover Posted January 16, 2021 #240 Share Posted January 16, 2021 I figure without reference to any particular thing I read that I could still get covid but that getting the vaccine might help and at least allow travel sometime in the future (kids will not allow us to travel to visit until we are vaccinated). Even the yearly flu shots do not prevent all people from getting flu. Despite Desantis allowing all of us over 65 to sign up for the vaccine, enough is not available to all counties. Our county Nassau (near Jacksonville) is only getting small amounts at a time. The county allowed a sign for all over 65 and essential workers yesterday. Over 7,000 signed up but the first random draw will be for 400 vaccinations. Anybody up this way: Prime Osborn Convention in JAX has a sign up every Thursday at 5pm for the next week. Husband got his shot yesterday and I get mine next week-he had no wait. Yellow fever vaccine is not recommended for people over 65 but I do not remember why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted January 16, 2021 Author #241 Share Posted January 16, 2021 16 hours ago, Daniel A said: Moderna was the only vaccine to show that even if you were in the 5.5% where it wasn't effective in preventing the disease, the vaccine blocks the illness from becoming severe. Pfizer didn't look at that factor so it's an unknown at this point. If I have a choice, I'll go with Moderna. 8 hours ago, deadzone1003 said: One of our fellow cruisers was giving the impression that by getting vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine, for 5.5% of them the vaccine will not work, but they won't get as sick. So, it follows if they think they are in 94.5% category, they think they would not get sick. I'm just warning them not to think like that. I'm trying to tell them that even if vaccinated there is always will be a risk, however small, that they can still get it especially if they are exposed to a high enough viral load. I agree with what you said. If deadzone1003 was referring to an earlier post of mine, I think it's just not as complicated as being made out. If a person gets both doses of the Moderna vaccine and enough time passes for the body to build the immune response and they still get sick from Covid-19, then they fell into the 5.5%. That said, the research showed that the Covid illness wouldn't be as severe as if the person had not been vaccinated. One will never know whether the vaccine worked for them or whether or not they just never experienced an exposure. I didn't get the flu this year - was it because I was vaccinated against the flu or did my Covid-19 precautions eliminate the chance of exposure to the flu? I'll never know for sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulchili Posted January 16, 2021 #242 Share Posted January 16, 2021 5 hours ago, Daniel A said: I didn't get the flu this year - was it because I was vaccinated against the flu or did my Covid-19 precautions eliminate the chance of exposure to the flu? I'll never know for sure... I am more positive about flu shots. Get them every year and haven’t had the flu in many a year. Other than this year I have “normal” exposure to the flu every year without getting it. Coincidence? I don’t think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted January 16, 2021 #243 Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) here's a question I cannot find the answer to: let's assume that covid vaccine will become one we get every year as many of us do for influenza. If we have had dose #1 and dose#2 of Moderna in 2021, will we be encouraged to get Moderna every year after that? Perhaps it won't matter? Edited January 16, 2021 by cbb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkNC Posted January 16, 2021 #244 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, cbb said: here's a question I cannot find the answer to: let's assume that covid vaccine will become one we get every year as many of us do for influenza. If we have had dose #1 and dose#2 of Moderna in 2021, will we be encouraged to get Moderna every year after that? Perhaps it won't matter? I don’t think it will matter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted January 17, 2021 #245 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I didn't think it would but wanted to throw it into this discussion. Thanks but 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadzone1003 Posted January 17, 2021 #246 Share Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 2:07 PM, Daniel A said: My point was that this was this article gave no reference point other than 'old and frail.' If you were to ask most college age people, they would probably define us as 'old and frail.' To quote the article, “If you are very frail, you should probably not be vaccinated,” Steinar Madsen at the Norwegian Medicines Agency said at a webinar on corona vaccine for journalists on Thursday." That wasn't the most scientific definition I've ever seen. A little more information would be helpful in making informed decisions impacting life and death... New York Post's article pretty much said they were referring to nursing home residents who are near the end of their life or candidates for nursing home who are near the end of their life. Here is the link: https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in-norway-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clo Posted January 17, 2021 #247 Share Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 1:11 PM, Daniel A said: Would somebody who is so old and frail that they wouldn't survive mild side effects from a vaccine be likely to sail on a cruise ship or be out in society? I'd be curious to know how the Norwegians defined 'old' and 'frail.' They might take a car trip with someone else driving. Not cruise related but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare pinotlover Posted January 17, 2021 #248 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, deadzone1003 said: New York Post's article pretty much said they were referring to nursing home residents who are near the end of their life or candidates for nursing home who are near the end of their life. Here is the link: https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in-norway-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/ Read in a different Forum that it’s now a bit more complicated. The thread said the guy’s father was deemed to frail for the vaccine. The oldster is being kicked out of his nursing home by the end of the month. The plan seems to be that once ( or shortly after) the other residents get their second shot, they will open the facility to family and guests of the residents for visitation. The family was having problems finding a facility to take him in their area. Essentially locked down far removed from family was going to be his future. Another example of how small the world will become for those not vaccinated. I’m guessing they are re-evaluating the risks of the father getting that vaccine versus the alternatives. Edited January 17, 2021 by pinotlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted January 17, 2021 #249 Share Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 4:27 PM, deadzone1003 said: So far so good, maybe it was just a bad batch of vaccine that they got. The story is still developing so let's see how it plays out. Well just my opinion....what ever that is worth.. The effective qualities of the vaccine is moot compared to the supply and demand problem. There is just not enough produced to get it out. England is hoping to get enough, they said today, to vaccinate their population by end of September 2021 !!! Many states just do not have a clue, like California, on what and how to do it. I am shocked by Paulchili reporting that New Hampshire is almost fully vaccinated with no problems. That is part of the problem. and the role of politics in getting it out.... frustrating to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ORV Posted January 17, 2021 #250 Share Posted January 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: Well just my opinion....what ever that is worth.. The effective qualities of the vaccine is moot compared to the supply and demand problem. There is just not enough produced to get it out. England is hoping to get enough, they said today, to vaccinate their population by end of September 2021 !!! Many states just do not have a clue, like California, on what and how to do it. I am shocked by Paulchili reporting that New Hampshire is almost fully vaccinated with no problems. That is part of the problem. and the role of politics in getting it out.... frustrating to see Dan, I think you might have misunderstood Paul's abbreviation. I think he was using NH for Nursing Home, not New Hampshire. NH hasn't reported any of their data on vaccinations yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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