I guess ports of call really don't want our money after all.

[kangforpres]

Just saw this in the Guardian, I knew Key West, Venice and some other ports have always had a strong anti-cruiser sentiment. But I guess it's growing more.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/dec/20/coronavirus-cruise-ships-lines-key-west-juneau?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=fb_us&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR24e1m6YufoB1EJo1rCyXAjSEPB1XyvXsllKTRyQDVUEF4_bzqqF6Fn3K4#Echobox=1608479529

 

-Paul

[HaveWeMetYet]

Cruise ships are getting to big and too many of them in the same ports at the same time. Something had to give. I expect to see more of these initiatives to control over crowding.

[CruiserBruce]

As always with comments like this, you need to not take one point of view as the gospel truth and speaking for everyone. For example, in Venice, some locals say "ban all ships" some say "allow ships, but not through Guideca...we need a new port" and some say "our way of life is dependent on cruise ships and tourism...don't change a single darn thing". (By the way, the Venice situation has been extensively discussed on the Italy board...you will see there, things change at glacial speed, for the reasons illustrated in my comments, and because big, structural changes, like a new port, take time.) So, watch and see...bet things don't change as much as this article suggests. Maybe not even close. In Alaska, their tourist season is short and intense...not sure a majority wants to cut off their nose to spite their face.

[iancal]

Not everyone uses money as the ultimate basis for every measurement or determination.

Edited December 21, 2020 by iancal

[Aquahound]

I know this is hard to swallow for some avid cruisers, but cruisers tend to be cheap and generally looked down upon in some ports. KW is my home and I’m in Juneau 4 to 5 times a year. The vast majority of locals don’t benefit from cruise ships and most locals stay far away from the port areas when ships are in.
 

When a Cariloha and Del Sol went in at Juneau, it should have been an eye opener. 🙄

[Sir PMP]

Like I have always said, small to mid size ships are the answer..

[KirkNC]

We reap what we sow.

[T8NCruise]

Because "your money" isn't the most important thing in life. 

[kangforpres]

Anyone know if any current HAL ships will comply with the new Key West rules?

 

[kangforpres]

Yes woke signaling cruisers I know money is not the determination to quality of life. I also realize it's contradictory to  to be anti-tourist and live in a tourist hot-spot. Everyone who lives in Venice, Key West and Juneau does indeed benefit if not directly from the tourism industry. 

 

When cruisers stop in your port and spend money in generates revenue through taxes for your local services (as overburden by tourism as they may be) It's a catch 22.

 

This past year the Alaskan ports suffered terribly from not getting any cruise industry based revenue, Ketchikan is in very dire straits and they have a fishing industry aside from tourism

Edited December 21, 2020 by kangforpres

[Aquahound]

36 minutes ago, kangforpres said:

Yes woke signaling cruisers I know money is not the determination to quality of life. I also realize it's contradictory to  to be anti-tourist and live in a tourist hot-spot. Everyone who lives in Venice, Key West and Juneau does indeed benefit if not directly from the tourism industry. 

 

 

Banning cruise ships is not being anti-tourist.  It's anti cruise ship.  It's a shame you really don't know the difference.  If this is such a hot topic for you, you might want to look into the history that led to this decision.  You might just learn something.  

[whogo]

It was Key West residents themselves who voted to limit cruise ships. How can anyone argue against that? 

[kazu]

1 hour ago, kangforpres said:

Everyone who lives in Venice, Key West and Juneau does indeed benefit if not directly from the tourism industry. 

 

 

I think the people of Venice would argue vehemently with this considering the destruction and flooding that the cruise industry has caused to Venice.

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, kangforpres said:

Anyone know if any current HAL ships will comply with the new Key West rules?

 

 

It's a bit murky as there are 3 different proposals that passed. One says that cruise ships with more than 1300 passengers aren't allowed to dock. The Volendam and Veendam (smallest remaining HAL ships) carry more than that if they are sailing at 100% occupancy (which I believe means all lower berths full).  I'm not sure whether that proposal would ban them automatically due to their estimated capacity, or whether they could dock if they are sailing at reduced capacity.

 

The other proposal says that the total number of visitors from cruise ships cannot be more than 1500/day.  So that would be one Volendam/Veendam sized ship, or two R-class ships, approximately (Azamara ships or Oceania's smaller ones).  And are crew counted among those "visitors per day"??

 

It doesn't seem likely that HAL will be calling there regularly.

[Hlitner]

I have written quite a few posts about the situation in Key West (a favorite vacation spot of ours) and predicted that the Key West and Venice  stories would empower some other smaller ports.  I love cruising (we have spent well over 1200 days on cruise ships) but also love the land.  Places like Key West, Venice, La Spezia, Portimao, Santorini etc. are wonderful places to visit on ships and land.   And ships were generally welcomed while they were still reasonably sized.  But now, with 4000 passenger vessels quite normal and some ships having over 6000 the situation has gotten out of hand.  The charm of a small town can quickly be destroyed by too many big ships.   

 

There is a place for big ships and they are fine in larger ports/cities such as Miami, Barcelona. Lisbon and Naples.  But we have already watched cruise ships destroy most of the charm of St Thomas and it has been taking  its toll on St Maarten (another favorite place of ours).  Make no mistake folks, there is a growing anti-cruise sentiment in many ports.  We just returned (last week) from Key West where we asked everyone we met how they voted on the cruise referendums and did not meet a single person who voted against those measures that severely limit ships.  One bar tender told us that many locals understood that the cruisers are good for some businesses but they thought the ships were awful for the town and the environment.  Another thing is that many of the businesses that primarily cater to cruises are not very popular with the locals. In Key West when locals saw how clean and clear the water became a few weeks after the cruises stopped that apparently sealed the fate of the cruise industry.  

 

What will the Key West vote do to Alaskan ports?  Perhaps tourism is now too important to keep out but maybe we should not be so sure.  Somehow when I see a large Diamonds International sign in a tiny Alaskan community it just does not seem right.  When our huge Princess ship with over 3000 souls invaded Quaqortoq there was something very wrong with the picture.  The locals were gone (likely staying in their homes) and we had the streets to ourselves.  The population of the entire village is 3050.  Our ship had over 4400 (counting the crew).  We walked around mostly deserted streets with most of the businesses being closed.  When we had previously been to that same town on a 1200 passenger ship it was much nicer and we actually chatted with some of the locals (who spoke English).  But I guess the sight of the large Golden Princess was more then those folks could take because nobody was around except some children.  Even in Nuuk, Greenland, the largest city of the country (pop. about 18,000) not many had the welcome mat out for our ship.  folk

 

But understand that Key West did not vote to eliminate cruise ships but rather to totally ban large ships which they feel damage their local environment and flood the town with too many people who spend proportionally much less money then folks who actually stay in KW.    And many of the popular tourist shops/haunts are not locally owned.  There is also one particular local business owner (who depends on cruises for much of his business) who is very unpopular with more then a few locals.   One other business owner told us that she hopes that higher end lines like Seabourn continue to stop at Key West and that some folks thought that keeping out the larger ships would make KW even more popular with the high end cruise lines that generally have small ships.  Folks on lines like Seabourn tend to spend a lot more money ashore in the boutiques and restaurants.  

 

Everyone we talked to did cite the damage done to the environment by cruise ships.  It was only after a few weeks of no ships that folks noticed that the local waters were clearer then they have been in decades.  Apparently the ships (especially larger ships) continuously stir up the bottom silt which never has time to clear.   Keeping out the "riff raff" also serves to make KW (and some other ports) take on a mystique of being a special destination.  Consider that Caribbean islands like Anguilla and St Barts keep their popularity with high spending visitors by keeping out most ships.

 

Hank

 

 

 

 

[iancal]

When we are on land travels we absolutely avoid certain places where the presence of many or several large cruise ship absolutely ruin the location for us. 

 

We either give them a pass or visit during off season.

 

Among them are Santorini, Mykonos, Dubrovnik, Corfu town.  Last time we were in Corfu town we went in for all of 15 minutes and then left because the cruise ship crowds took away much of the enjoyment for us.   We love Alaska but the cruise crowds turn us off the locations big time.  Same for a number of islands in the Caribbean-we are better off remaining on board and enjoying the ship.  St. Thomas, St Maarten.....YUK. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by iancal

[cruisequeen4ever]

Interviewing 1 resident of Juneau who’s anti ships does not mean that’s the sentiment of all residents. I live in AK, and the lack of tourism is having a huge impact on the port towns. Sure, the residents may have enjoyed being able to walk the trails without crowds last summer, but they may not be able to buy food or stay in business! There have been several news articles here about the need for cruise ships to return in 2021 to prevent destruction of a lot of the businesses in the port towns. AK is very pro cruise tourism! 

[Mary229]

Besides overcrowding there may simply be a generational shift.  From the mid-80s many cities made a decision to go whole heartedly into the tourism at the expense of investment in other parts of their economies.   My own hometown, New Orleans, did this.  Tourism doesn’t require a formal education and the supporting institutions which foster that education.  It creates lots of low wage jobs.  It does present low barrier opportunities for entrepreneurs.  Maybe this  generation is ready to reinvent their community.

 

but as @Sir PMPpointed out ships have gotten huge.  I think that is truly the problem 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Mary229

[edward01ca]

Having lived in downtown Vancouver, BC for many years, I can only say good riddance to the cruise ship industry.  Flying in 10,000 people on some days and then boarding buses or cabs creates huge amounts of air pollution not to mention the stink of diesel fumes from the ships themselves.  HAL at least can plug their ships in here if they choose.  There were often 25-30 ships/week.  Then there is the food and drink brought in by truck from locals, but more frequently Mexico/California for fruits and vegetables.  Vancouver often has water shortages in the summer, but the city still had to supply water for all these ships as well as take care of their sewage.  Now, I live in Victoria in James Bay, the cruise ship area.  This summer is the first time in about 13 years that we do not have the smell of diesel fumes floating across and into our homes.  Going into downtown Victoria on cruise ship days was absolute hell.  For many posters here, try living in a city for a cruise ship season and see how you like it.

[kangforpres]

Well I live in Oakland, across the bay from San Francisco, one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. SF makes more money in hotel, rental car and other associated tourist activities the Oakland collects in a whole year from all of our revenue streams. 

 

It's a huge advantage for a city or area to be a "tourist destination" than it is not to be one.

 

https://www.sftravel.com/article/san-francisco-travel-reports-record-breaking-tourism-levels-2018-gives-projections-2019

[iancal]

One difference may be that we have visited SF many times.  Always for a few days in a hotel.  Never once on a cruise ship.  I do not think that it has anywhere near the number of annual cruise visitors that some other well know cruise ports have.

 

There is a huge difference in our daily spend for hotel, meals etc when we are visiting a destination city like SF than when we are in Venice, Corfu, Key West, wherever for a day.

Edited December 22, 2020 by iancal

[Aquahound]

15 hours ago, kangforpres said:

Well I live in Oakland, across the bay from San Francisco, one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. SF makes more money in hotel, rental car and other associated tourist activities the Oakland collects in a whole year from all of our revenue streams. 

 

It's a huge advantage for a city or area to be a "tourist destination" than it is not to be one.

 

https://www.sftravel.com/article/san-francisco-travel-reports-record-breaking-tourism-levels-2018-gives-projections-2019

 

But again, you're conflating 2 issues.  You use San Fran as an example, but how much of their tourism industry is cruise ships?  Same goes for Key West.  Key West and the Florida Keys benefit FAR more from tourists who stay in hotels, rent cars, eat in restaurants, attend nightly theater, etc. Day trippers off cruise ships are nowhere near as profitable.  Furthermore, the Keys are wrestling with the fact the reef is dying.  They're doing what they can to conserve it.  

[CruiserBruce]

30 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

But again, you're conflating 2 issues.  You use San Fran as an example, but how much of their tourism industry is cruise ships?  Same goes for Key West.  Key West and the Florida Keys benefit FAR more from tourists who stay in hotels, rent cars, eat in restaurants, attend nightly theater, etc. Day trippers off cruise ships are nowhere near as profitable.  Furthermore, the Keys are wrestling with the fact the reef is dying.  They're doing what they can to conserve it.  

Absolutely correct. I think SF gets (Pre-Covid) around 30 cruise ship visits per year...2020 was going to be the best year recently with around 35. A place like St Thomas gets 30 per week.

[iancal]

A number of years ago we got 'chapter and verse' from an expat who explained the many ways in which the cruise lines make sure as much money as possible spent on the island sails away with the cruise line.  He operated several independent tour firms.

 

Everything from multi year agreements for rebates to the cruise line of port taxes paid by cruisers,  trying to get monopolies on the operation of certain tourist attractions and tours to having so called 'recommended' stores become recommended simply because they rebate of percentage of their sales back to the cruise line. The list went on and on.

[MMDown Under]

I absolutely love Alaska as I was lucky to see Alaska like a local, rather than as a big cruise ship passenger.  I travelled on the Alaskan Marine Highway staying three nights at a lot of the ports.  After the four or five big tourist ships left port in the evening, each town became alive with locals.  On the taxi ride in to town from the ferry ports, I would chat to the taxi driver.  I learnt many of the problems of mass tourism.  I learnt most of the people who worked in the tourist shops came from out of town and left after the last cruise ship of the season in September.  

In addition to cruising, we rented a car in Ancorage, as well as a truck camper to stay in National Parks.  Alaska has so much to offer tourists which can't be seen on a day trip from a ship.