Is it time to restart cruising from US Ports and join the UK, Europe, Asia and the Caribbean?

[Globehoppers]

Wow,  Another "we need to restart cruising now!" thread on Cruise Critic.  This is just like asking someone at an MLB game, who has just shelled out $100 to get in the door and $12 for a beer and $8 for a hot dog, if they like baseball.  The real surprise is the number of negative answers.  

 

I find these types of "polls" disingenuous.  They do nothing for the safe, repeat safe, return to some form of cruising.  We need toilet the medical professionals, yes even CDC has "medical professionals," to the data collection, research and evaluation of the safety and efficacy of everything involved in a restart.  Taking the cake out of the oven well before it is ready can be disastrous.  That "cake" has ingredients from the cruise lines themselves which they need to address, and have been dragging their heels to accomplish.  That, in itself, could be taken as a sign that cruise lines are not yet ready themselves to safely resume operations.

[SelectSys]

10 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Many of the ports or places where cruise ships are scheduled to start are still listed by the CDC as Level 4 (avoid all travel to these destinations) -- including Israel where one RCCL ship is scheduled to port, Cypress where they plan to visit, Greece where Celebrity will base a new ship (and RCCL will visit) and so on. In the Caribbean many islands are also at Level 4. So that's my own reasoning.

Yes, the CDC would likely say no to any area currently open to general travel.  This is no surprise to me.  How much is politics and how much is science? This is an open question to me in light of the guidance for travel by fully vaccinated people.

 

10 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Today the CDC did release the Technical guidance that ships have been missing in order to proceed to the next Phase in the Conditional Sailing Order, so it does seem that we are moving in that direction.

In listening to a couple of interpretations of the order, it seemed that it simply added "more hoops" and was silent on things like vaccination.  Lots of comparisons to other form of travel - e.g., emptying cruise terminal between cruises for 12 hours when airports can operate continuously.  I will need to look at it myself later.

 

9 hours ago, crazyank said:

She's a politician at heart,  practicing CYA as usual.

All government scientists including Dr. Fauci himself, are as much a politician as scientist.  No way these people can survive and thrive in Washington without making this compromise.  This doesn't mean that I still don't assume they are doing what they think is right - even if politics compromises science at times.

 

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

We talk about crew being vaccinated but most of the countries that crew come from are using the Sinovac vaccine from China. Will this vaccine be acceptable in countries in Europe and USA? We wouldn't force them to vaccine twice would we😳? 

This is an interesting point that I have also thought about.  I guess it depends if the issue with Sinovac is efficacy or safety.  If the vaccine doesn't work, that would seem to be a bigger deal.  It's going to be an issue for the US regardless as Mexico and Central America are all using Chinese vaccines heavily.

 

Chile is something to watch as both their vaccination and case levels are both growing.  They are using Chinese vaccines.  Is the case rate growth (now at an all time high) due to the onset of fall or the efficacy of the vaccine?

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by SelectSys

[capriccio]

I voted 'no' to restarting cruising now because

1) you didn't define what is involved in the 'process of starting cruising' and

2) I want to see how the cruise lines propose to meet all the requirements in yesterday's CDC missive. 

 

With that information I will have the specifics needed to judge the process and the changes in the cruise experience that will be implemented by the cruise lines.  One can only hope it will put me and other potential cruisers at ease.  If it doesn't, I am prepared to wait until our next booked cruise (July 2022) and re-evaluate before final payment is due.  Here's hoping that won't be necessary!

[cruisemom42]

23 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

Yes, the CDC would likely say no to any area currently open to general travel.  This is no surprise to me.  How much is politics and how much is science? This is an open question to me in light of the guidance for travel by fully vaccinated people.

 

I think there are degrees and degrees. IMO (notice I say opinion as I am not looking to start a debate), those who are truly of a scientific bent versus a practical bent still have valid concerns about the spread of variants, which is at least one good reason to try to limit travel -- if you only travel in your immediate area, you are MUCH less likely to encounter the new variants. Whereas if you travel outside of your vicinity you increase the chances of encountering them. Sooner or later variants may emerge that are significantly different enough to challenge the vaccinated. If they then opportunistically spread via travel (as happened with the first wave last year) we are back to square one.

 

It is those who are interested in expediency (which IMO correlates with what many people are calling "political") who are anxious to get the world going again. As someone with a keen interest in science, a good working knowledge of vaccine science (works with vaccine developers), I can say with some certainty that there is much we do not know about COVID. 

 

Those who look on vaccines as the magic bullet may well be right. But they could also be wrong. Scientists don't know enough to be sure either way.  They will wait for data and proceed slowly.  But the howling mob won't allow it. To them the situation is either black or white. They do not seem to be able to understand shades of gray or subtleties of interpretation.

 

 

23 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

In listening to a couple of interpretations of the order, it seemed that it simply added "more hoops" and was silent on things like vaccination.  Lots of comparisons to other form of travel - e.g., emptying cruise terminal between cruises for 12 hours when airports can operate continuously.  I will need to look at it myself later.

 

 

I don't believe these are more "hoops" -- they represent key pieces of the technical guidance that the cruise lines have been calling for so that they have an understanding of what the CDC expects in order to approve their plans. Many if not most of these requirements were heavily foreshadowed in the original document issued earlier.

 

[DirtyDawg]

Sorry, I can't offer my expert opinion on your question at this time.

 

I'm off to tell the coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs how to get the team's power play scoring again.

 

Then I have to get on a Zoom call with Bryson DeChambeau to show him how to properly hit a golf ball. 

 

A then I'll be tied up for awhile straightening out that  Elon Musk character... 

 

🙃

[mnocket]

15 hours ago, ontheweb said:

No, I am sure the comment was that you could meet in small groups among vaccinated people without masks and social distancing.

 

And what just about everyone is leaving out when they quote the new CDC guidance is that they still recommend no non-essential travel.

Please reread the CDC guidance.  It's very clear that it is talking about meeting with unvaccinated people when it refers to small groups......

 

You can gather indoors with unvaccinated people of any age from one other household (for example, visiting with relatives who all live together) without masks or staying 6 feet apart, unless any of those people or anyone they live with has an increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19.

[torringtonwyo]

enough is enough what gives the cdc the power to dictate that we can decide for yourself if we are ready to cruise have you flown lately planes are stuffed every seat is filled airports are full of people no temperature checks required no vaccine cards maybe if we all ,every us citizen demands a stop to this cdc over reach and control!!! it should be oblivious that the cdc is funded by special interest groups that are anti freedom of choice can you imagine that if a walmart opens at 9am till noon then they would have to close for 12 hours before they could open again  write or call our senators and demand they get control of the cdc

[Ashland]

1 hour ago, torringtonwyo said:

enough is enough what gives the cdc the power to dictate that we can decide for yourself if we are ready to cruise have you flown lately planes are stuffed every seat is filled airports are full of people no temperature checks required no vaccine cards maybe if we all ,every us citizen demands a stop to this cdc over reach and control!!! it should be oblivious that the cdc is funded by special interest groups that are anti freedom of choice can you imagine that if a walmart opens at 9am till noon then they would have to close for 12 hours before they could open again  write or call our senators and demand they get control of the cdc

We are going through a public health crisis...What's so hard to understand we need to exercise caution of the unknown for a period of time.

[SelectSys]

5 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

Wow,  Another "we need to restart cruising now!" thread on Cruise Critic... The real surprise is the number of negative answers.  

Not too me.  There has been a significant number of people that have spoken out against a near term restart of cruising.  

 

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

It is those who are interested in expediency (which IMO correlates with what many people are calling "political") who are anxious to get the world going again.

It can cut both ways.  I can see a political agenda in going slow as well.  Just my opinion.  

 

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Those who look on vaccines as the magic bullet may well be right. But they could also be wrong. Scientists don't know enough to be sure either way.

Evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of vaccines that have been tested well - even against the variants.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-pfizer/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-shot-91-effective-in-updated-data-protective-against-south-african-variant-idUSKBN2BO55Y

 

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

I don't believe these are more "hoops"

It would be interesting to compare to other processes in place for cruises from Europe.

 

2 hours ago, mnocket said:

It's very clear that it is talking about meeting with unvaccinated people when it refers to small groups

I think the point is that the community has universal consensus that everyone should be vaccinated on board.  This is my assumption for allowing to board a cruise - passengers and crews are vaccinated. 

 

The big disappointment for me that the CDC distinguish between procedures for fully vaccinated and unvaccinated cruises.

 

Note, I am still not vaccinated in CA because of living in an unprioritized zip code for vaccine shipments as well as appointment scheduling.  As a result, I still avoid groups almost entirely.  I won't get on a plane either at this point.  

 

1 hour ago, torringtonwyo said:

enough is enough what gives the cdc the power to dictate that we can decide for yourself if we are ready to cruise have you flown lately planes are stuffed every seat is filled airports are full of people no temperature checks required no vaccine cards maybe if we all ,every us citizen demands a stop to this cdc over reach and control!!! it should be oblivious that the cdc is funded by special interest groups that are anti freedom of choice can you imagine that if a walmart opens at 9am till noon then they would have to close for 12 hours before they could open again  write or call our senators and demand they get control of the cdc

I agree that it doesn't seem to be a level playing field when it comes to cruises.  Maybe a rationale exists, but I don't see the how fully vaccinated people as a group can create a huge problem for a cruise ship.  Is it possible?  I guess so.  Is it likely?  That seems pretty remote based on what has been published as data so far.

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by SelectSys

[neverbeenhere]

No need to start now, September will be fine with us.

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, SelectSys said:

Evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of vaccines that have been tested well - even against the variants.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-pfizer/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-shot-91-effective-in-updated-data-protective-against-south-african-variant-idUSKBN2BO55Y

 

 

For now, yes. But while there are still so many unvaccinated people around, the virus will keep spreading -- and mutating.

Edited April 3, 2021 by cruisemom42

[dogs4fun]

4 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 But while there are so many unvaccinated people around, the virus will keep spreading -- and mutating.

Therein lies the rub.

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, torringtonwyo said:

write or call our senators and demand they get control of the cdc

 

OMG, this would be the WORST possible outcome. 🙄

[slidergirl]

17 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

For now, yes. But while there are still so many unvaccinated people around, the virus will keep spreading -- and mutating.

And, remember, just because you have been vaccinated, it does not mean than you cannot still get COVID and spread COVID.  As long as there are unvaccinated people around, those who have been vaccinated need to continue with the proper public health measures, including masking.  

[slidergirl]

3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

OMG, this would be the WORST possible outcome. 🙄

Some people have short memories, don't they?  That was tried up to January 22 and it did no good...  🙄

[Mary229]

The US hit an all time record of over 4 million vaccines given today.  30% of adults have received their vaccine, 75% of adults over 65 have.   Those over 65 account for over 80% of deaths in the US.  The US has enough people available to now start test cruises on a limited scale. I think we could start with 7 or less day cruises, vaccinated pax only, with whatever port restrictions required by the destination ports .  The only issue is the crew vaccinations.  I am not sage enough to know if they should or should not also be vaccinated.

 

the vaccines are proving far more effective than the cruise critic “scientists “ claim

Edited April 3, 2021 by Mary229

[ontheweb]

52 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

For now, yes. But while there are still so many unvaccinated people around, the virus will keep spreading -- and mutating.

The absolute freedom with no responsibility people believe they have the right to spread the virus.

[Mary229]

41 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

 

the vaccines are proving far more effective than the cruise critic “scientists “ claim

Further I find it ludicrous that  the same people who belly ache about the anti-vaxxers are the same people who continue to spout off unsupported claims that the vaccinated spread the disease and the vaccines are totally not effective against the variants. 

[slidergirl]

3 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Further I find it ludicrous that  the same people who belly ache about the anti-vaxxers are the same people who continue to spout off unsupported claims that the vaccinated spread the disease and the vaccines are totally not effective against the variants. 

From the CDC yesterday:

• A growing body of evidence suggests that fully vaccinated people are less likely to have asymptomatic infection and potentially less likely to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others. However, further investigation is ongoing.
• Modeling studies suggest that preventive measures such as mask use and social distancing will continue to be important during vaccine implementation. However, there are ways to take a balanced approach by allowing vaccinated people to resume some lower-risk activities.
• Taking steps towards relaxing certain measures for vaccinated people may help improve COVID-19 vaccine acceptance and uptake.
• The risks of SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Vaccinated people could potentially still get COVID-19 and spread it to others. However, the benefits of relaxing some measures such as testing and self-quarantine requirements for travelers, post-exposure quarantine requirements and reducing social isolation may outweigh the residual risk of fully vaccinated people becoming ill with COVID-19 or transmitting the virus to others.

So it's not ludicrous like you believe.  The jury is still out.  But if people who are not medically compromised do not get vaccinated and more and more people stop wearing masks we will not to that magic "herd immunity" and we'll be going around in circles about this for months and months. 

[2wheelin]

13 hours ago, frantic36 said:

 The reason that people like myself haven't replied to this post with the "Science" people like you and to far from the sea etc  want is because we know just like we won't change your minds,  you seem like a waste of time so why bother.  Doesn't matter what science we or logics we put forward. 

 

Have a good Easter in your own little world.

I think a little proof reading is in order. 

And I think you just proved my point as well but it is hard to tell from that nonsense post.

[Mary229]

@slidergirl  CDC putting out unproven pronouncements is the very reason many people disdain their advice.  I read university and other peer review studies who do no make judgements or issue hasty, hacked "science " reports.

 

Look the antivaxxers say they won't get one because of the risks involved in taking medications and that I have no problem with.  They NEVER say the vaccines don't work

 

It is only the fools like some at the CDC that say the vaccine doesn't work.  Yes, that is what is being said.  Vaccines prevent people from getting diseases including covid thereby also preventing contagion.  Is spread even a real term? The CDC saying the garbage that you posted actually makes a case against vaccination.  It is foolish.

 

As a matter of disclosure - myself and my household and most of my extended family, except children, are fully vaccinated.  I applaud those pharmaceutical scientists who studied rigorously and stayed up night after night finding a vaccine for this disease.  I personally think they  deserve every accolade and acknowledgment that society affords.  Dissing their hard work by saying this vaccine, unlike all other vaccines, does not really work is politically contrived hack science.

 

Another personal disclosure, I don't vote, I don't belong to a party, I don't care who is in Washington DC

Edited April 4, 2021 by Mary229

[ontheweb]

38 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

 

Another personal disclosure, I don't vote, I don't belong to a party, I don't care who is in Washington DC

Why do you consider not voting something to be proud of?

[Mary229]

16 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Why do you consider not voting something to be proud of?

It was not a "proud" statement.  It is a statement of my political position as I don't want to be accused of bias.  My reasoning is a personal decision not up for public debate.

[ontheweb]

19 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

It was not a "proud" statement.  It is a statement of my political position as I don't want to be accused of bias.  My reasoning is a personal decision not up for public debate.

I am not a member of a party, but I do vote. In fact I once (a long time ago) held a public office as a member of my district's school board.

 

If I misunderstood your statement, that is part of the problem with this type of communication as opposed to face to face. Thank you for clarifying. But, you can still not be an enrolled member of a party and still vote. We are all in this together, and should try to be part of the solution. JMHO

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

I am not a member of a party, but I do vote. In fact I once (a long time ago) held a public office as a member of my district's school board.

 

If I misunderstood your statement, that is part of the problem with this type of communication as opposed to face to face. Thank you for clarifying. But, you can still not be an enrolled member of a party and still vote. We are all in this together, and should try to be part of the solution. JMHO

Well if we are going there I believe there are other ways to fulfill our civic duties outside of voting and I do.