Vax and Federal Law

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, nocl said:

If they do not tell you then they do not have to worry about upsetting people if they change how they would handle it.  It is a just trust us approach.

I suspect that any trust in cruise lines' ability to handle of COVID disappeared with the events aboard the Diamond Princess. There needs to be clarity as to their intentions.

[hcat]

6 hours ago, TeeRick said:

hcat you have hit on the issue that many rational and loving parents will face with COVID vaccines.  No easy answer really.  Normally new vaccines are tested over time in kids all the way down to infants.  A few years in total of accumulated safety data.   But even in those cases it is not really long term.  Not like decades of data.  But the kids get vaccinated because the risk of serious consequences of the disease or death is far greater than the vaccine risk.  Most parents understand this.  Now COVID is a very interesting case study here.  In general kids can get infected but for the vast majority of cases it is very mild or even non-symptomatic.  Yes they are carriers and can infect adults.  But what is the chance of infecting the now vaccinated adults (Grandparents, Parents, Teachers, etc.)?  So COVID poses a very different risk vs reward equation for vaccinating kids.  I would personally still choose to vaccinate my own kids because I would be worried about long term effects (long haul) of COVID infections even if mild.  

Tee rick.

You frame this very well.

Glad I am not in a decision making parental role...just a g-parent who worries!

[hcat]

4 hours ago, cruiselvr04 said:

I work for a large hospital in Dallas.  Administration has assured us that that they will not mandate a vaccine.   
 

In  the past with flu shot we were given a choice.  However if you didn’t get the flu shot you had to wear a mask around patients for the entire flu season or about 6 months out of the year.  Most who didn’t get the flu vaccine had had allergic responses to it which included trips to the ER.  A few just don’t believe they are necessary. 

 

If you have worked somewhere for years and they suddenly come out with a mandate do you think it’s fair to fire them, have them lose their job, their pension, their retirement and insurance coverage?  Really?  
 

While this is a serious illness, Faccui says that masks work.  If this is true leave them alone! Or do masks not work?

 

I’m just trying to help some of you see both sides.  Would I feel better if the doctors and nurses caring for me have received their vaccines?  Probably.  But since I am fully vaccinated it shouldn’t really matter anymore. According to the CDC I’m now at low risk and even if I got covid it would be mild.

 

Get the vaccine to be safe and go about your life.  I did.  Let others to decide for themselves.

 

 

 Well said.. employees with or without contracts / unions have rights some of them vested.....HIPPA protections..Many issues. 

 

Glad I have the vaccine but see that others  have some legit reasons not to take it..health, auto immune  and allergy issues, etc.   No easy choices for some ..

[WonderMan3]

9 hours ago, TeeRick said:

This is true but if you are at slight risk of getting a case of COVID even if vaccinated, you are essentially at no risk for having a severe case requiring hospitalization or worse with all of the current vaccines approved in the US.

Yes, but you could still continue to spread it on the ship and that is a liability for that cruise. Maybe over time there will be minimal disruption to a cruise even if they get one case onboard mid-cruise but you can be guaranteed that in the early days of cruises restarting even one case showing up onboard is going to be a HUGE deal. All eyes will be on the cruise lines expecting them to fail. This is why I’d rather there be a slower, careful path to restart as opposed to a rush to get out there because I worry about cancelled cruises and bad press that could result from that.

[TeeRick]

13 hours ago, WonderMan3 said:

Yes, but you could still continue to spread it on the ship and that is a liability for that cruise. Maybe over time there will be minimal disruption to a cruise even if they get one case onboard mid-cruise but you can be guaranteed that in the early days of cruises restarting even one case showing up onboard is going to be a HUGE deal. All eyes will be on the cruise lines expecting them to fail. This is why I’d rather there be a slower, careful path to restart as opposed to a rush to get out there because I worry about cancelled cruises and bad press that could result from that.

WM3,   I completely agree with your comments.

[dodger1964]

22 hours ago, cruiselvr04 said:

While I don’t think employers should mandate vaccines cruise lines are very different.  I do think crew vaccines should be mandatory at least in the beginning.  Those who can’t get them or won’t have the option not to come back.  The reason is what some of you have expressed.  No one wants a sick ship.  There is no place else on earth I can think of except maybe an outpost somewhere,  where people are cohorts together for greater then 3 days.  We all know the cruise lines get a bad rap over norovirus too and that’s the same issue.  A hotel can make people sick but there is a steady amount of people coming and going so it’s never really traced down.

 

I don’t want a sick ship that needs to be quarantined.  I don’t want my vacation extended by 2 weeks either.  Why would a cruise line even want to take a chance again on that?  

But the problem is even having been vaccinated you can still get and transmit (I haven't checked the news today...they could have changed their minds on that!), so if you did have it, got tested, you (I assume) would be quarantined on the ship or upon arrival into the us? And, at least for now, have to get tested upon arrival back in the US (at least by plane...not sure about ship).

 

So my point is, even with 100% vaccinated on ship, could still have to quarantine.

[bud88]

54 minutes ago, dodger1964 said:

But the problem is even having been vaccinated you can still get and transmit (I haven't checked the news today...they could have changed their minds on that!), so if you did have it, got tested, you (I assume) would be quarantined on the ship or upon arrival into the us? And, at least for now, have to get tested upon arrival back in the US (at least by plane...not sure about ship).

 

So my point is, even with 100% vaccinated on ship, could still have to quarantine.

This is my thought as well. Vax folks are still transmitting, happened at work, and it could still impact the cruise. You can't tell me a non-vax person is more likely to transmit, there just isn't enough data. I would feel better if everyone just gets tested before getting on board!! That way, vax or non-vax, we're all safer. I don't trust that folks who are vax'ed are being careful anymore and may pose a greater threat at this point. I see so many people getting together, and they're not checking to see if everyone negative. We're being told we can get together without masks here in CA in small groups!

This is just from what I see going on at this point. I'm not saying either type of person is bad or good.

[hcat]

Pre cruise testing seems to be a no brainer.  Hoping the process can be simplified to book and get  results.  Difficulities of access in some areas still turn people off..The test itself is not invasive, just uncomfortable and over quick!

Edited April 9, 2021 by hcat

[UnorigionalName]

23 hours ago, hcat said:

HIPPA protections..

 

HIPAA is a non-issue. not applicable.

[nocl]

On 4/8/2021 at 3:57 PM, WonderMan3 said:

Yes, but you could still continue to spread it on the ship and that is a liability for that cruise. Maybe over time there will be minimal disruption to a cruise even if they get one case onboard mid-cruise but you can be guaranteed that in the early days of cruises restarting even one case showing up onboard is going to be a HUGE deal. All eyes will be on the cruise lines expecting them to fail. This is why I’d rather there be a slower, careful path to restart as opposed to a rush to get out there because I worry about cancelled cruises and bad press that could result from that.

Depends if the cruise lines even tell anyone that there was a case on board.

 

The past norm for cruise lines has been to only communicate to as few people as possible.  so the person identified will know and anyone traveling with them, maybe a few others (close contacts), the disembarkation port, but I am not at all certain that the cruise line will let everyone on the ship know.

 

Kind of like when they took ships out of US waters while they were having outbreaks among the crew after the shutdown started, so they would not have to report the cases to CDC.

[TeeRick]

Here are a couple of opinion pieces published by experts that present multiple sides of these arguments.

 

On the ethics and lawfulness of vaccine passports:

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778526?guestAccessKey=b2716208-7f99-4c7a-94e5-fb8c02e263b5&utm_source=silverchair&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_alert-jama&utm_content=olf&utm_term=040721

 

On employers and vaccine mandates (in the context of a EUA vs full approval).

 

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/key-questions-about-covid-19-vaccine-mandates/?utm_campaign=KFF-2021-Coronavirus&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=120074633&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_AOHaR31dbFmaMEww7VwhLTGXviYGPaqphbcSajHleB8SBR1SUnqZ8iOzTi8iohZIzSwoRK719r6jk-U427I41U_3i8w&utm_content=120074633&utm_source=hs_email

[K.T.B.]

Well I got into a rather strong disagreement about vaccines being required or not with a friend.  Finally the person I was having this heated discussion with brought up "religious reasons" as to why they can't/won't get vaccinated.  Now I know they're NOT religious in any way, shape, or form, but me being me and not being one to sit idly by while allowing such a statement slide past, I found this and sent it to him:

 

https://www.vumc.org/health-wellness/news-resource-articles/immunizations-and-religion

 

So I then asked him what his religion was....  Got nada.  He got called out on his BS and I've gotten silence since.  

 

Suffice it to say, for those whose religion "prevents" them from being vaccinated, these will people will not be cruising any way.  Now I do NOT want this to devolve into a discussion about religion, but I'm tired of hearing all the excuses people are using to not get vaccinated.  Only 2 friends of mine have legitimate reasons for not wanting to get vaccinated and that's because they're unsure of its safety.   That's perfectly understandable. Regardless, they're going to hold off from cruising for awhile and do other vacations.  They're willing to wait out through 2022 before looking to cruise.

 

I'm still hoping that cruise lines make it a requirement for all its crew and passengers to be vaccinated.  Zero exceptions, including children.  Otherwise, they risk the chance of a major catastrophe in having an outbreak on board and that might ultimately destroy cruising.

[4774Papa]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Here are a couple of opinion pieces published by experts that present multiple sides of these arguments.

 

On the ethics and lawfulness of vaccine passports:

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778526?guestAccessKey=b2716208-7f99-4c7a-94e5-fb8c02e263b5&utm_source=silverchair&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_alert-jama&utm_content=olf&utm_term=040721

 

On employers and vaccine mandates (in the context of a EUA vs full approval).

 

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/key-questions-about-covid-19-vaccine-mandates/?utm_campaign=KFF-2021-Coronavirus&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=120074633&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_AOHaR31dbFmaMEww7VwhLTGXviYGPaqphbcSajHleB8SBR1SUnqZ8iOzTi8iohZIzSwoRK719r6jk-U427I41U_3i8w&utm_content=120074633&utm_source=hs_email

Great information.

 

My sense from the beginning was that vaccines can be mandated, but EUA not so.

 

Personally, I would prefer to cruise only with other vaccinated people.

 

Did our first air trip since COVID19 (domestic) and even though Delta had the middle seats blocked, the aircraft was full of masked people.  Airports are clearly getting busier, although traffic clearly is less.

 

 

[hcat]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:34 PM, UnorigionalName said:

 

HIPAA is a non-issue. not applicable.

At my husb's workplace,  HR identified HIPPA, FOIL and privacy as possible issues.   Keeping actual copies of the cards on file with batch nos were a concern.  It was resolved  with adequate medical  record protection.  Hardly matters now with reports of so many fakes being sold.

 

We hope most folks get vaccinated  but do not believe folks who choose to stay home need to justify their choices..as  long as they are prepared to live with the  everyday consequences.

Edited April 11, 2021 by hcat

[nocl]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:30 AM, dodger1964 said:

But the problem is even having been vaccinated you can still get and transmit (I haven't checked the news today...they could have changed their minds on that!), so if you did have it, got tested, you (I assume) would be quarantined on the ship or upon arrival into the us? And, at least for now, have to get tested upon arrival back in the US (at least by plane...not sure about ship).

 

So my point is, even with 100% vaccinated on ship, could still have to quarantine.

Data has indicated (Israeli study) that at least with Pfizer and Moderna dealing with the original strain and B.117 (UK strain) asymptomatic infection and transmission was reduced by 94%.

 

So yes data is indicating that vaccination does reduce infection and transmission by approximately the same amount as symptomatic infection.

 

I do not except anything definitive from the CDC on this until August when a large US trial looking into the same issue completes.

[nocl]

3 hours ago, hcat said:

At my husb's workplace,  HR identified HIPPA, FOIL and privacy as possible issues.   Keeping actual copies of the cards on file with batch nos were a concern.  It was resolved  with adequate medical  record protection.  Hardly matters now with reports of so many fakes being sold.

 

We hope most folks get vaccinated  but do not believe folks who choose to stay home need to justify their choices..as  long as they are prepared to live with the  everyday consequences.

For anyone interested as indicated

 

The issue with HIPAA from an employers point of view is if they keep medical information about employees then that information must be protected in accordance with HIPAA requirements and if that information should leak then the company would be liable the same as if a medical provider  released medical information without a release.  

 

The only FOIL I am familiar with is Felony Offender Information Lookup  what one are you referring to?

Edited April 11, 2021 by nocl

[Covepointcruiser]

All employee personal information must be protected, especially SSNs and birthdates.   Vaccine information is not that personal as no one will steal my identity or know my medical issues because I received a vaccine.   This vaccine is needed to counter a pandemic that has killed over a million people.    If you don’t want to do you part and get the vaccine, then be prepared to have some restrictions placed on your travel.

[nocl]

58 minutes ago, Covepointcruiser said:

All employee personal information must be protected, especially SSNs and birthdates.   Vaccine information is not that personal as no one will steal my identity or know my medical issues because I received a vaccine.   This vaccine is needed to counter a pandemic that has killed over a million people.    If you don’t want to do you part and get the vaccine, then be prepared to have some restrictions placed on your travel.

The difference is HIPAA has very specific rules and penalties for disclosure of medical information.  SSN and birthdates might expose a company to civil action, but not illegal in many states.

[Denny01]

Just a reminder for those that won’t take the vaccine because it’s ‘experimental’ or ‘too new’ or whatever,  in reality, you aren’t getting vaccinated to protect yourself, but to protect family, friends and community. There’s a good chance (yeah, chance, you know rolling the dice) that you will not get extremely ill if you contract COVID, but you have a good chance of passing it on to someone who will get very ill, or die. Over 500 thousand Americans have died who weren’t vaccinated; no one who has been vaccinated has died of COVID. And when someone insists on spreading such weak evidence, even out and out lies about the vaccine and ‘alternative approaches’ could very well be killing people who make the big mistake of believing them, or using those fantasies as an excuse. 

 

So enough. each thread about COVID has a few of these types. And think about it, last year, going on a cruise could be a dangerous experience; this year, all those who won’t get the vaccine can’t get on board which means a cruise may be a very safe vacation option!

 

Den

Edited April 12, 2021 by Denny01

[nocl]

For those interested this article gives a good over view of ADE

 

https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine

 

Here is a good article talking about ADE in related to COVID19 and vaccine development.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7484565/

Edited April 12, 2021 by nocl

[TeeRick]

12 hours ago, nocl said:

For those interested this article gives a good over view of ADE

 

https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine

 

Here is a good article talking about ADE in related to COVID19 and vaccine development.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7484565/

nocl- thanks for posting these links!

[bud88]

On 4/11/2021 at 7:20 PM, Denny01 said:

Just a reminder for those that won’t take the vaccine because it’s ‘experimental’ or ‘too new’ or whatever,  in reality, you aren’t getting vaccinated to protect yourself, but to protect family, friends and community. There’s a good chance (yeah, chance, you know rolling the dice) that you will not get extremely ill if you contract COVID, but you have a good chance of passing it on to someone who will get very ill, or die. Over 500 thousand Americans have died who weren’t vaccinated; no one who has been vaccinated has died of COVID. And when someone insists on spreading such weak evidence, even out and out lies about the vaccine and ‘alternative approaches’ could very well be killing people who make the big mistake of believing them, or using those fantasies as an excuse. 

 

So enough. each thread about COVID has a few of these types. And think about it, last year, going on a cruise could be a dangerous experience; this year, all those who won’t get the vaccine can’t get on board which means a cruise may be a very safe vacation option!

 

Den

Unfortunately, there have been deaths from vaccinated people. The percentage is small, but growing. It's been in the news for a while. We really should focus on testing before boarding.

[Denny01]

1 hour ago, bud88 said:

Unfortunately, there have been deaths from vaccinated people. The percentage is small, but growing. It's been in the news for a while. We really should focus on testing before boarding.

the percentage isn’t ‘small’, its minute and we can focus on anything we wish but most of the cruise lines will require vaccinations before boarding. And that’s what matters. 

 

Den

Edited April 16, 2021 by Denny01

[AstoriaPreppy]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:58 PM, WonderMan3 said:

My understanding is that public schools and universities can't do that until it comes off its emergency use status and is fully approved by the FDA. Private schools and universities however can implement whatever rules they want at anytime for vaccine requirement (exceptions for health allergies and legitimate religious medical beliefs).

Not sure this is the case. Rutgers is requiring the vaccine this fall, and unless a billionaire has purchased without my knowing, is a major public university in NJ. 

[TeeRick]

2 hours ago, AstoriaPreppy said:

Not sure this is the case. Rutgers is requiring the vaccine this fall, and unless a billionaire has purchased without my knowing, is a major public university in NJ. 

Go back and check out the links in post #86 on this thread.