Recent email urging us to contact the "CLIA action center"

[yogimax]

5 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

 

Wrong. My claim was that planes will be just as packed as pre-COVID. I made no claim as to the total number of passengers.

 

I'll give you that planes may or may not be packed, although this certainly hasn't been the case with Delta.  The fact remains, however, that we are far away from anything close to the number of people flying pre-COVID.  Many folks are hesitant to fly and many not willing to cruise at the present time.

[Coralc]

4 minutes ago, yogimax said:

I'll give you that planes may or may not be packed, although this certainly hasn't been the case with Delta.  The fact remains, however, that we are far away from anything close to the number of people flying pre-COVID.  Many folks are hesitant to fly and many not willing to cruise at the present time.

 

Many folks don't have anywhere to go. 

[Tippyton]

1 hour ago, not-enough-cruising said:

This is the number  of travelers. Really does not give a picture of travelers per plane, which is what we are talking about 

Exactly.  I've flown on a full airplane to an empty airport more than a few times.

[Tippyton]

25 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

 

Wrong. My claim was that planes will be just as packed as pre-COVID. I made no claim as to the total number of passengers.

And bouhunter also made reference to planes being full, and you again responded with total passenger counts.

TSA totals and total number of flights and total numbers of passengers has nothing to do with the fact that each plane is operating with the same capacity as pre-COVID.

 

Boo Boo Minimum doenst like facts that are not made up in his head.

[RobInMN]

10 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

Boo Boo Minimum doenst like facts that are not made up in his head.

Ooo name calling. I guess you win.

I'm not making up any facts. Delta is the last airline (at least domestic US) that has blocked the middle seat and they announced that they are stopping that practice. There are no announced social distancing measures in place by any (major?) airline preventing full flights. The is exactly the way they operated pre-COVID. Prove any of that false.

On top of that, the only people that have spoken up with any anecdotal evidence have indicated airlines are, in fact, operating full airplanes.

It's irrelevant whether there are 1000 full flights a day or 1. They have been given approval to operate at the same per-plane capacity as they did pre-COIVD. As demand increases, and it is, the number of flight will continue to increase.

There was a perfect meme in the "To add some humor..." thread.

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2741933-to-add-some-humour/?do=findComment&comment=60978022

 

[Tree_skier]

Landed and now getting a meal before heading to the hotel. My plane was almost completely full. They indicated with an announcement hat there were only 5 empty seats.  Lucky for me one of the, empties was beside me. 👍

 

[HUNKY]

My other half and I are vaccinated and looking forward to cruising out of Nassau on Adventure of the Seas.  Our December 2020 flights and March 2021 flights were full.  We have dined out several times over the past year and frequent grocery and other stores as often as ever.  Yes, we wear our masks, keep our distance and wash our hands frequently.  I've previously sent messages to my congressmen supporting the resumption of cruising.

[PhoenixCruiser]

2 hours ago, yogimax said:

Not true.  See my post #33

 

The Airlines don't have all their planes flying but the ones still in the air are pretty much full.

[mugtech]

13 hours ago, neverbeenhere said:

I always thought of myself as the expert at every subject 😄, but Covid has brought out many expounding their expertise. I appreciate the grand knowledge.

 

Like any business, encouraging your patrons to express an opinion to people of influence is smart business.

 

 

 

 

 

Stay on the bus, forget about us, put the blame on me.  Cruise on!

Expecting thousands of yellow ribbons.

[not-enough-cruising]

10 hours ago, yogimax said:

Nope... the claim was that flying would return to normal.  Normal is the number of flyers, not the load factor driven by a severe reduction in flights.

No sir, you are incorrect; in post number 12 you quoted "planes will be just as packed as pre-COVID"

The discussion was NOT about flying returning to normal, but the bodies on seats in each plane.

Your TSA numbers, while interesting do nothing to prove or debunk the topic of discussion.

[Emelda1967]

 

13 hours ago, publicpersona said:

And not a single one as a result of cruising. While unfortunate that people are dying, the number is dropping quickly, and full vaccination has proven to be 100% effective against severe cases or death. On a cruise where everyone is vaccinated, how is your statistic relevant?
 

 

Probably because there are so few people from the U.S. who are cruising. But you have no basis for your statement because there is no database tracking who died from COVID as a result of a cruise available to the public. 

 

However, I can say with personal knowledge having administered thousands of vaccinations in my career that there is no vaccine that is 100% effective against anything. There are multiple factors that affect efficacy, immune status and the body’s ability to respond, age, administration, maintenance of the vaccine, the list goes on and on.  

 

I agree that ‘fully vaccinated’ cruises (ages 16 and above) are safer than not mandating vaccination. Even safer would be only allowing age 16 and older as fully vaccinated; no children under 16 as this age group is the most likely to carry the disease asymptotically, variants included. But even I wouldn’t suggest that. The vaccines make people safer, every precaution we take to keep ourselves and others safe make will get us closer to cruising. 

 

CDC is not going to decrease requirements without appropriate effective safeguards in place. We would be better off requesting our politicians to go with the fully vaccinated scenario.

[2chiefs]

15 hours ago, gmerick said:

This epidemic has reached the manageable stage.  We know how to proactively prevent it through vaccines.  We know how to cure it with existing medicines.  We know how to prevent transmission through filtration, sanitation, and distance.  Yes, some vulnerable individuals will be very adversely affected if exposed to the virus, but that holds true for many even worse diseases common to shipboard travel.

Please don't forbid me from traveling; my health concerns have been addressed, and I'm ready, willing and able to take a cruise.  It may not be right for you, due to your health concerns, so please stay safely home.  I have already made my choices regarding disease prevention.  My daily life may involve more exposure than is appropriate for you.  That exposure will not be increased by my vacation plans, even if those plans include cruising.  

Please continue to maintain your own level of safety by distance, sanitation, and filtration in a manner consistent with your health needs.  Be aware that those around you, even if they have not yet chosen to be cruise passengers, are accepting far more exposure than is appropriate for you to accept.  

We each will get on with life as is appropriate to our own situation. 

Please don't mandate your own choices on your neighbors.  

Very well written - Thanks

[2chiefs]

16 hours ago, Tom47 said:

<<<SNIP>>>  The CDC makes its decision based on science, not profit. <<<SNIP>>>

REALLY???

(CDC= Can't Do Crap)

[MommaBear55]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:44 PM, smokeybandit said:

 

 1000 deaths from the past month or two are reported each day. Death reporting is very lagged and very staggered.

Plus 8000 people die every day in the USA from all causes, and many of those covid deaths in a normal year would be lumped into one of those other causes.

Deaths in the US are 700,000 in excess of those expected. These deaths would not have happened without Covid, so no, they would not have been "lumped into one of these other causes". 

[Tippyton]

8 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

Deaths in the US are 700,000 in excess of those expected. These deaths would not have happened without Covid, so no, they would not have been "lumped into one of these other causes". 

And in the near future the number of expected deaths will dip.  COVID has always been about the harvesting effect - taking the weak, the sick, the vulnerable.

[A&L_Ont]

1 minute ago, Tippyton said:

And in the near future the number of expected deaths will dip.  COVID has always been about the harvesting effect - taking the weak, the sick, the vulnerable.

Forgot to add the vaccine effect to that list, for reducing the numbers. 

[not-enough-cruising]

7 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

You have discovered that when one spews nothing but a bunch of bulls**t they lose track of what bulls**t they spewed on which day and to whom.  One's own words are the hardest to swallow.

Agreed, I noticed in nearly 24 hours there has been no reply

[Junkhouse]

There will always be a risk with COVID-19 and don’t full yourself if it will be fully eradicated. For those who have the shot let the cruising begin. We were told the vaccines are safe so go get them yet these same bozos months ago said they wouldn’t get the shots. Don’t fool yourself that this is science it’s politics 101.

[rs45thompson]

Before I say what I am going to say, I want to emphasize that I believe that people have the right to get a vaccine or not.  You should have control as to what will go into your body because you will live with the consequences of said actions.

 

With that said, until there is herd immunity the cases will not go down.  I don't think the numbers should dictate when cruising will start only the availability of the vaccine.  The only way to get herd immunity is for people to catch the virus (only lasts for about 90 days) or get vaccinated.   You have many that will not get vaccinated and is tired of wearing masks.  You have many governors that have lifted the mask mandate (mine is one) and people are living life and catching the virus.  I don't believe the numbers will go down anytime soon with this behavior.  Should this delay cruising - no.  Other people's decisions should not determine if I can cruise or not.  Those who want the vaccine (at least in my state) can get it.  Let's start cruising.  To wait until the numbers go down in my opinion will delay cruising for a long time and it is not necessary imho.  

[publicpersona]

22 hours ago, Emelda1967 said:

there is no vaccine that is 100% effective against anything. There are multiple factors that affect efficacy, immune status and the body’s ability to respond, age, administration, maintenance of the vaccine, the list goes on and on.

 

I didn't say the COVID vaccines provide 100% guarantee. I was saying that real world results with approaching one billion vaccinations has yet to produce a statistically significant number of breakthrough cases that resulted in severe illness or death. That's a game changer.

 

This can't be about zero risk. This is about managing the risk, and the dangers of the virus are orders of magnitude reduced from six months ago. The CDC is ignoring this and has doubled down on restrictions made before a vaccine was available. There is no science or data to justify what the CDC is doing.

[Tippyton]

58 minutes ago, rs45thompson said:

The only way to get herd immunity is for people to catch the virus (only lasts for about 90 days)

Antibodies to any vector wane over time.  There is robust debate with COVID as to what is "normal" but most opinions and studies are at 8 months at least.  Unfortunately more studies are being done on the vaccinated vs. the recovered.  There is also great debate about a compare/contrast of the vaccinated vs. the recovered on antibody robustness/longevity and how meaningful it may be.  There is also very little study about long-term immunity after antibodies wane, because its all about tHe AnTIbOdIEs!!!  Having said all of that, the preponderance of scientific opinion (well reasoned opinion I might add) is that T-cell and B-cell immunity is likely long-lasting.

[rs45thompson]

12 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

Antibodies to any vector wane over time.  There is robust debate with COVID as to what is "normal" but most opinions and studies are at 8 months at least.  Unfortunately more studies are being done on the vaccinated vs. the recovered.  There is also great debate about a compare/contrast of the vaccinated vs. the recovered on antibody robustness/longevity and how meaningful it may be.  There is also very little study about long-term immunity after antibodies wane, because its all about tHe AnTIbOdIEs!!!  Having said all of that, the preponderance of scientific opinion (well reasoned opinion I might add) is that T-cell and B-cell immunity is likely long-lasting.

I thought they did studies and found that at 90 days the antibodies started to wane drastically in those who caught the virus.  I'm not sure about the T-cells.  You would think it would work the same way as the vaccine that they would remember and be able to create whatever it is that they create to fight this horrible virus.   I also read somewhere that the studies on those vaccinated at 9 months are still good.  You sound like you are alot more knowledgeable about this than I am.  I'm just ready to cruise!

[Emelda1967]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:05 PM, publicpersona said:

And not a single one as a result of cruising. While unfortunate that people are dying, the number is dropping quickly, and full vaccination has proven to be 100% effective against severe cases or death. On a cruise where everyone is vaccinated, how is your statistic relevant?
 

Not to get into an argument, but your statement: “full vaccination has proven to be 100% effective against severe cases or death” appears to include the assertion that vaccination is 100% against those two scenarios.

 

It is not...as I stated nothing related to a vaccine is 100%. Since the vaccines are said to be only 65%-95% effective, that alone indicates that they are not 100% effective against severe cases or death. I think that when people quote medical/scientific information without having a medical/scientific background, the information is often taken out of context or misunderstood. I don’t know what your background is and don’t mean to offend. However, I’ve had a medical degree for over 40 years with a 28 year career specifically in disease exclusion and eradication.

 

Please don’t think that we disagree about the safety of fully vaccinated. I agree with you completely on the subject. I just like to keep the misunderstandings to a minimum. 

[Emelda1967]

https://apple.news/AvGppoXm4R7GqMrWxHaMMyQ

If anyone really wants to have a better understanding of immunity and COVID-19, this is a pretty interesting article. 

On 4/9/2021 at 6:48 PM, Tree_skier said:

I sent the email clia requested.  I doubt it will do much good being sent to the worthless politicians that it is being sent to but you can always hope.  With regards to flying... I'm heading to the airport in an hour and half.  I'll let you know how full my plane is and what seats are marked off.

 

The idea that cruising can't restart with reduced capacities and a fully vaccinated ship is preposterous.  While cruising is a more extended period of time compared to flying, flying is a far more concentrated congregate setting.  The malls are packed, restaurants are operating and all sorts of activities are being engaged in safely.  To suggest that cruising can't do the same isn't reasonable.

We agree on a fully vaccinated ship with additional precautions.  “Safely” is a relative term but the CDC is not looking to achieve zero risk with cruise ship travel.

 

I am still confounded as to why people disagree with probably one of the most effective safety procedures of “fully vaccinated” passengers. The governors of Florida and TX have issued bans on businesses requiring proof of vaccination before providing services, including cruise ships. Norweign was planning to propose fully vaccinated cruises to the CDC, which would likely be difficult to turn down with other reasonable safety precautions in place (requiring negative tests, changes in procedures and venues, etc.) However, the FL governor effectively killed those types of cruises out of Florida. Cruise lines will continue to move their departure ports outside of the U.S. for the foreseeable future.

 

I think we can get off track comparing a mall or a restaurant where one spends a limited amount of time to a cruise ship; it’s like comparing diamonds to coal. There may be some similarities (origin, organic makeup, etc.) but the differences are significant. 

 

There was a retrospective study done on the Princess cruise ship outbreak. It was determined that the air distribution/filtration system was the major culprit in coronavirus dissemination. Cruises are two nights or longer, potentially thousands people are in close proximity during that time-all breathing the same air (laughing, talking, eating and drinking) and moving around the ship, thousands of touch points around the ship, hundreds out of the thousands not washing their hands or using sanitizers (we’ve all seen them) as they are supposed to...probably everyone on this post has been on at least one ship with a norovirus outbreak. And how many of us have seen people wearing their mask below their noses? Many viruses can harbor in nasal passages for up to 72 hours. 

 

Airplanes have long had built in HEPA filtration systems which remove about 95% of potential disease agents. I think the new Virgin Voyages ship is the only ship built with a HEPA filtration system. The other cruise lines are looking to retrofit some of their ships. That process is probably uncomfortably expensive. 

 

The longest flights usually range from 11-13 hours, domestic flights are usually between 1-6 hours. You stay in your seat most of time, now you are wearing a mask, your potential disease spread is likely limited to 3-6 ft without a mask while actively eating or drinking (depending on which study you agree with). The airport is probably about the same risk level as a mall?

 

Hope the flight went well. 

[Tom47]

On 4/10/2021 at 11:50 AM, 2chiefs said:

REALLY???

(CDC= Can't Do Crap)

Wow!  I have never met an actual crap expert, which you obviously are since you made such a definitive crap statement.  How did you become crap expert?  Did you go to a crap college?