Out of all the cut backs over the years, what is the one thing ...

[sail7seas]

Well said, fits my cruise pattern with HAL as well. As a 48 yo sailing HAL since I was 35 yo I don't find HAL cruisers getting younger. I've heard for a decade they want a young crowd but never see that onboard. I'm often the youngest 10% onboard. I like HAL, others think we're crazy... My wife works in the Travel Industry and often says HAL is targeting younger cruisers.

 

 

Targeting maybe yes, but are they attracting the younger cruisers? Perhaps they cannot figure out how to please the young er generation or the olders among us. Maybe if they decide who they want to be, and make dedicated attempts to learn what tthey need to do to please more of both groups? What they seem to be trying to do is lose as many of their repeaters as possib le without being able to attract enough young 'uns.. Does nto seem to be a winning plan... Trying to please all maybe pleases t oo few?

[sail7seas]

Well said, fits my cruise pattern with HAL as well. As a 48 yo sailing HAL since I was 35 yo I don't find HAL cruisers getting younger. I've heard for a decade they want a young crowd but never see that onboard. I'm often the youngest 10% onboard. I like HAL, others think we're crazy... My wife works in the Travel Industry and often says HAL is targeting younger cruisers.

Targeting maybe yes, but are they attracting the younger cruisers? Perhaps they cannot figure out how to please the young er generation or the olders among us. Maybe if they decide who they want to be, and make dedicated attempts to learn what tthey need to do to please more of both groups? What they seem to be trying to do is lose as many of their repeaters as possib le without being able to attract enough young 'uns.. Does not seem to be a winning plan... Trying to please all maybe pleases t oo few?

[wander]

I really do not know if they are "losing" a higher proportion of repeat customers each year then they did per year for the past 10 - 20 years. Anyone have actual, factual data to support this often bantered about claim on the HAL CC Board about the loss of increasing numbers of longer term cruisers? My cruising experiences tend to support the idea that HAL still has a high proportion of repeat cruisers. (Excluding Alaska**cruises for sure and probably Caribbean cruises. )

 

Of course some move on to other lines - always did, probably always will. Some unfortunately die or become physically or mentally unfit for cruising, some just quit ocean cruising, etc.

 

I do know that on my "longer" cruises (say over 20 days) it never ceases to amaze me how many folks I know from past cruises. Some I know fairly well, others I only know from sight.

 

** For newer to cruising and/or CC, Alaska cruises tend to have a disproportionate low number of 1st timers. I did laugh when on a Princess Cruise to Alaska a few years ago I was publicly "honored" for having the 3rd highest number of Princess cruising days of all the passengers. (I had a few over 120 days.) At the announcement my jaw almost hit the floor.

[veryseasonedtraveler]

I would like to see the return of the "Yum-Yum Man" in uniform on a consistent basis. He should chime the traditional notes announcing dinner and be stationed at the dining room exit to dispense mints, ginger, etc. This was one of the unique hallmarks of cruising on a Holland America ship for many years.

 

 

 

Raymond[emoji4]

 

 

5 Star Cruiser,

Have Passport, will travel

[navybankerteacher]

While HAL is undeniably losing some of its "base" (normal human expiration dates play a part here) there is also an ever-running stream of new 65-85 year-olds who may be out-growing the "wow" experience of the ever-bigger, ever-newer builds - and who might just be looking for precisely what HAL used to provide.

 

Trying to shift persona to compete with entrenched providers of alternate cruising experiences, as they give up the factors which previously set them apart (and attracted a loyal following), might be a risky approach.

[Iwant2BatC]

I miss the smaller ships! You will never get me on these huge floating hotels. I don't even like the size of the Noordam. I think many of us old timers miss the intimacy of the smaller ships. I really do.

 

 

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[slidergirl]

While HAL is undeniably losing some of its "base" (normal human expiration dates play a part here) there is also an ever-running stream of new 65-85 year-olds who may be out-growing the "wow" experience of the ever-bigger, ever-newer builds - and who might just be looking for precisely what HAL used to provide.

 

Trying to shift persona to compete with entrenched providers of alternate cruising experiences, as they give up the factors which previously set them apart (and attracted a loyal following), might be a risky approach.

 

I don't totally disagree, but I don't totally agree. HAL shouldn't market themselves as the Senior Center for cruisers. There are plenty of 65-85+ers out there who still enjoy the "wow" factor, enjoy adventure travel, like to experience the new things on the block and would find HAL a totally boring experience. Maybe market HAL as something for those who want to experience "retro" cruising, like it was back when. You would be marketing to a type of person, not an age of a person. Add some people younger than 65-85 to the print ads. Add some people who look like your average person, not someone with money.

Loyal following is never what a corporation has as it's first concern; making profit is. And, growing the brand is always on their mind. If you don't grow the brand, it will die. Lots of examples out there in the world for this. Think of some of your favorite old brands - how many have kept up, how many have folded?

[iancal]

Absolutely. And we are two of them. All the time in the world and a large travel budget that allows us to do 2 8 week trips a year and a few in between. We fit most of the profile however we seldom fly business or first.

 

About the only thing that HAL is doing to attract us is itinerary. Even we either are not captivated by an older ship or we want to spend more time in each locale. So when we do take a cruise mid travel , just for some R&R, there is nothing to differentiate HAL from the other cruise lines. So it comes down to ship and price for us-seldom cruise line.

 

There is a huge pile of disposable income in North America that is being freed up.. It is referred to as wealth transfer. It is the largest wealth transfer in history. It is one of the reasons why we see so many adds lately for wealth management and estate planning.

 

The savvy businesses in the travel/leisure business recognize this and are moving forward to attract and capture this lucrative business. HAL, from our perspective, has been stuck in neutral, trying to get to first gear but failing, for some time now.

Edited October 14, 2017 by iancal

[josumello]

Absolutely. And we are two of them. All the time in the world and a large travel budget that allows us to do 2 8 week trips a year and a few in between. We fit most of the profile however we seldom fly business or first.

 

About the only thing that HAL is doing to attract us is itinerary. Even we either are not captivated by an older ship or we want to spend more time in each locale. So when we do take a cruise mid travel , just for some R&R, there is nothing to differentiate HAL from the other cruise lines. So it comes down to ship and price for us-seldom cruise line.

 

There is a huge pile of disposable income in North America that is being freed up.. It is referred to as wealth transfer. It is the largest wealth transfer in history. It is one of the reasons why we see so many adds lately for wealth management and estate planning.

 

The savvy businesses in the travel/leisure business recognize this and are moving forward to attract and capture this lucrative business. HAL, from our perspective, has been stuck in neutral, trying to get to first gear but failing, for some time now.

 

 

 

We are very much similar to this profile. Having sailed every mass market except one. Have also sailed a couple of luxury lines. We are early 70's. The one line we haven't sailed is Holland. Why?? Older ships. What appears to be a very sedate experience. We r old but like some life in the evening. Also it is very easy to find diverse itinerary in other cruise lines. I must admit though, HAL pricing is very good. Will we try them eventually! Maybe but probably not.

 

 

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[LMaxwell]

While HAL is undeniably losing some of its "base" (normal human expiration dates play a part here) there is also an ever-running stream of new 65-85 year-olds who may be out-growing the "wow" experience of the ever-bigger, ever-newer builds - and who might just be looking for precisely what HAL used to provide.

 

Trying to shift persona to compete with entrenched providers of alternate cruising experiences, as they give up the factors which previously set them apart (and attracted a loyal following), might be a risky approach.

 

I am younger than that set and I keep giving HAL a serious look as an ALTERNATIVE to many of the new mega ship "wow" builds. The problem is mostly what I am finding are smaller ships with less to do, that's not the right kind alternative. I am looking for truly memorable dinners, educational port lecturers, attentive service. That's worth "something" to me over mainstream NCL, RCI, Carnival, but HAL almost seems too shy or meek to offer it. If I'm going to give up some of the "wow" features and bling, I want "wow" food and service.

[cruisemom42]

I am looking for truly memorable dinners, educational port lecturers, attentive service. That's worth "something" to me over mainstream NCL, RCI, Carnival, but HAL almost seems too shy or meek to offer it. If I'm going to give up some of the "wow" features and bling, I want "wow" food and service.

 

I agree with the above.

 

I hate to say it but HAL missed an opportunity that Viking Oceans seems to have foreseen and seized upon: offering mid-sized ships (some would call them small) with excellent food and service, interesting itineraries, etc. They've targeted what I'd call the "thoughtful" explorer. With some forethought, HAL could have been a player in that market, which seems to be successful.

 

Sometimes I wonder if HAL isn't too freighted by its past history? It may be easier to start a new line than to "rebrand" a line with such an entrenched image of catering to the older, cost-conscious and more sedate crowd.

 

I consider myself a traditional cruiser -- but it's a NEW traditional, not a literal time-travel back to the old days of cruising. I don't want rock walls, ships with no connection to the ocean outside or Las Vegas style entertainment. What I want are human-scale ships (1,000 passengers or less), offering pretty much what the above poster has named -- as well as modern staterooms and systems.

[kazu]

Let's take another look here.

 

Everyone is talking about cutbacks and sure there have been changes.

 

But what about the Tamarind on the Signature Ships?

 

the PG and Canaletto on all the ships?

 

The different restaurants on the Koningsdam?

 

The ability to go to your stateroom as soon as you board. Not many cruise lines offer that little luxury. No lugging of carry on's or waiting until you are "called" to go to your cabin.

 

The in room dining which many mass market lines don't offer to the extent that HAL does.

 

the itineraries that are availble on certain ships are hard to find elsewhere. And keep changing so they are not completely repetitive each year.

 

Yes, there have been changes, some we don't like, but some have definitely been for the better. I don't like some of the changes either but others have been for the better.

 

And, for us, so far, the MDR has been dramatically improved on the cruises we have been on - as well as the desserts which is a big step up.

 

I do complain about things that have been cut back. I WANT MY DAM CRUISE LOG. & my Cellar Master Dinner & my Master Table/Chef Rudi Dinner, etc. Don't get me wrong. But some of the changes have been for the better.

[rkacruiser]

kazu,

 

I agree with you, mostly. The very special dinners held in the PG, i.e. Cellar Master's Dinner, have no interest for me any more. Too much food, too much wine, I sometimes return to my stateroom after such excess and feel not well and am unable to get a good night's rest as a result.

 

Crow's Nest alterations concern me. (Interesting, I think, that there has been any news of which I am aware that other than the Westerdam is going to experience such.) The Breakfast Room Service Menu changes also are of concern. Yes, on some ships: one can write in whatever one wishes. Not on others, if my understanding is correct.

 

The inconsistency of what to expect from one ship to another, from one cruise to another is really the most disconcerting aspect of cruising on HAL for me.

[kazu]

kazu,

 

I agree with you, mostly. The very special dinners held in the PG, i.e. Cellar Master's Dinner, have no interest for me any more. Too much food, too much wine, I sometimes return to my stateroom after such excess and feel not well and am unable to get a good night's rest as a result.

 

Crow's Nest alterations concern me. (Interesting, I think, that there has been any news of which I am aware that other than the Westerdam is going to experience such.) The Breakfast Room Service Menu changes also are of concern. Yes, on some ships: one can write in whatever one wishes. Not on others, if my understanding is correct.

 

The inconsistency of what to expect from one ship to another, from one cruise to another is really the most disconcerting aspect of cruising on HAL for me.

 

I agree and I totally confess that I have avoided the convoluted libraries (if you can still call them a library) and some of those changes by sticking with the smaller ships where those changes are not being made (so far).

 

We do enjoy the Cellar Master and other dinners. Portions are not huge and I totally confess to enjoying nice wine. Of course, it only works on sea days. ;)

 

My next cruise will be on the Prinsendam which is usually not tampered with. There is method to my madness along with a lovely itinerary ;)

[iancal]

I am not saying that HAL is a bad cruise line. What I am saying is that for us, there is no discernable difference between HAL, Princess, Celebrity. As long as we like the ship and the price, all is fine. The food is fine. But it is very comparable to other lines. Certainly no wow factor. After all, it really is mostly banquet food tarted up with the exception the optional dining venues. Celebrity and Princess are no different.

 

We don't care about room service. Other than coffee and fruit to our room in the morning we really do not care . Same for getting to our cabin as soon as we board, It has never really been an issue for us. These two do not even make it to the long list for us, let alone the short list. Non starters-both of them.

[Bostonjetset]

I am younger than that set and I keep giving HAL a serious look as an ALTERNATIVE to many of the new mega ship "wow" builds. The problem is mostly what I am finding are smaller ships with less to do, that's not the right kind alternative. I am looking for truly memorable dinners, educational port lecturers, attentive service. That's worth "something" to me over mainstream NCL, RCI, Carnival, but HAL almost seems too shy or meek to offer it. If I'm going to give up some of the "wow" features and bling, I want "wow" food and service.

 

Have you sailed with Cunard? They may be a great match based on this criteria. Truly wonderful lecturers on a vast array of topics, many of whom are experts in their fields. Also, their ships, whilst bigger than HAL's, are downright stunning inside and have a high passenger to space ratio.

 

I still maintain that HAL has the best service crew of all the lines I've sailed. All lines have some great people, no doubt, but there is a warmth to the crew on HAL. Whilst I cannot provide concrete evidence, I honestly feel that the homogeneity of the crew has an impact on this. I've seen some culture-clash [not a lot but occasionally] and cultural misunderstandings on other lines and HAL avoids a lot of that by hiring mostly Indonesians and Filipinos.

[Cruzaholic41]

I am younger than that set and I keep giving HAL a serious look as an ALTERNATIVE to many of the new mega ship "wow" builds. The problem is mostly what I am finding are smaller ships with less to do, that's not the right kind alternative. I am looking for truly memorable dinners, educational port lecturers, attentive service. That's worth "something" to me over mainstream NCL, RCI, Carnival, but HAL almost seems too shy or meek to offer it. If I'm going to give up some of the "wow" features and bling, I want "wow" food and service.

 

Nothing on HAL is worthy of “wow.” Even the specialty restaurants are mediocre compared to other lines. I recommend giving Celebrity a try, especially Solstice Class or the new Edge.

[retired arizona]

We are very much similar to this profile. Having sailed every mass market except one. Have also sailed a couple of luxury lines. We are early 70's. The one line we haven't sailed is Holland. Why?? Older ships. What appears to be a very sedate experience. We r old but like some life in the evening. Also it is very easy to find diverse itinerary in other cruise lines. I must admit though, HAL pricing is very good. Will we try them eventually! Maybe but probably not.

 

 

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we're also in our early 70's and are trying our first HAL cruise... and I am worried about it being too sedate. We have mostly cruised Royal C. and began to miss some of the things the did, seemed they were going too young

but we also like some life, dancing at night, sing along piano, music around the pool etc. I was looking forward to some of the things I had read about on Holland, The Dutch Tea, Dancing with the Stars, Movie theatre with popcorn, but now I find those have been eliminated ( we are going on Westerdam, the movie theatre was taken out during dry dock) Royal is not doing the Panama Canal this year and the price on Hal for the full transit cruise was decent, so we're going to try it. Have connected people on our Roll Call so have some people to play cards with on sea days.

[SetAnOpenCourse]

Getting back to the OP question: I would bring back traditional pop as the background music in the Lido. It's not the only genre I listen to, and I'm younger than that era, but it really seemed just right for a cruise! Unfortunately it wasn't long after I started cruising in 2012 that I stopped hearing it there.

[Splinter]

Just returned from a HAL Zuiderdam cruise. We had a "yum-yum" man in the MDR every evening offering mints, dates, and candied ginger. We also had an Indonesia crew show (although not as good as the ones on previous cruises). I miss:

 

The Dutch Chocolate tea

Enrichment lectures (none at all on a 10 day cruise??)

Self-service laundry

Being escorted to your cabin by a steward upon embarkation

Fresh squeezed OJ in the Lido (it is clearly frozen/reconstituted now) at breakfast

Comfortable seating in the Crow's Nest (the lounge chairs were instruments of torture!!)

Fresh popcorn in the theater served by crew (now only cold bags set out at the side of the theater)

Creative ice cream flavors, made on board, in the Lido (they purchase their ice cream now, and only in fairly boring flavors)

Kitchen tour disappointing compared to previous HAL cruises

No more last night Baked Alaska parade (I know it is corny, but it was always fun)

No morning trivia times (4PM and 9PM only)

 

It also took an act of Congress to get 2 daily schedules delivered to our cabin daily so that we each had one. Never had a problem with this in the past. We also had one evening where we never got turn-down service at all.

[cruisemom42]

Let's take another look here.

 

Everyone is talking about cutbacks and sure there have been changes.

 

But what about the Tamarind on the Signature Ships?

 

the PG and Canaletto on all the ships?

 

The different restaurants on the Koningsdam?

 

The ability to go to your stateroom as soon as you board. Not many cruise lines offer that little luxury. No lugging of carry on's or waiting until you are "called" to go to your cabin.

 

The in room dining which many mass market lines don't offer to the extent that HAL does.

 

the itineraries that are availble on certain ships are hard to find elsewhere. And keep changing so they are not completely repetitive each year.

 

Yes, there have been changes, some we don't like, but some have definitely been for the better. I don't like some of the changes either but others have been for the better.

 

And, for us, so far, the MDR has been dramatically improved on the cruises we have been on - as well as the desserts which is a big step up.

 

 

While you've provided an excellent list that's very relevant for those who mainly sail HAL and enjoy what HAL offers, there are some weaknesses and gaps in my opinion.

 

HAL does offer some great features and some good ships. But for someone who doesn't live and breathe HAL, I find the line-up of different options on different ships of differing sizes to be a little confusing at times. Perhaps it's just me. I'd love to try Tamarind, but there hasn't been a Tamarind on the HAL ships I've cruised on. It would be nice if it was fleetwide. (PG I find a bit dull, honestly. I'm not a steak person.) More specialty options seems to be the way to go, and the newest ship offers them -- but most HAL cruisers aren't happy with this ship's other changes.

 

I like smaller ships, but again I find it a bit confusing. Which ships have libraries these days? Which is the ship with the butchered aft pool? Which is the one with all the leaks, and should I avoid it? What if the only itinerary I'm interested in is offered on a ship I'm not keen on trying? HAL needs greater consistency across her fleet.

 

The second thought I have (relative to the question of what is HAL's future market), is that some of the features you list, while appreciated by HAL's older clientele, are less significant or important to that younger 45-65 demographic HAL apparently wants to attract.

 

I'm not sure that Gen-Xers (me, barely) or Milennials (my son) want to dine in-cabin. Varied dining venues and food experiences are what these groups value. I can't tell you the last time I had an in-cabin breakfast, lunch or dinner on any cruiseline.

 

Granted, on a longer cruise that might be of more value -- but the Gen-Xers are still working by and large, we can only vacation for limited chunks of time, and we want to make the most of them. (Along those lines, a little more liveliness at night wouldn't come amiss....)

 

Another sore point -- why does HAL think that only cruises of 2 weeks or longer deserve expert lecturers? When I cruise with Voyages to Antiquity, there has never been fewer than 3 onboard lecturers for cruises that are primarily 12-14 days in length.

 

HAL may have made improvements compared with the HAL of the past, but as someone else said, the true comparison is with other lines -- some of the competition do offer better and more varied dining opportunities onboard. Entertainment on HAL (including daytime and night time options) is sparser than on most other lines. And all of the lines -- with exception of Celebrity -- that I've sailed with in the last 7 years or so allow you to go right to your cabin on boarding -- including Princess.

 

There are other good itineraries out there. I have visited many Mediterranean ports on Voyages to Antiquity and Swan Hellenic (now defunct, sadly) that are never offered by HAL except perhaps occasionally on Prinsendam. And yes, I am finally sailing on Prinsendam -- but I will be fully transparent and say that while I'm excited to sail on the Elegant Explorer, if I did not have a $2,000 credit to spend, I could -- and probably would -- take a very similar itinerary on VTA that would cost less and include more things that matter to me. Including three great lecturers. :cool:

[imae39]

I hope that Holland America has not discontinued printing and putting out the newspapers in the morning. We really enjoyed reading those.

Would each pick up a copy in the Lido after breakfast and go out on loungers by the Lido pool and read them. Do they still print them?

[mcmarya]

The fact that a library is apparently going to be added to the Koningsdam could indicate that the powers that be occasionally respond to feedback received from customers. If you don't appreciate changes, say something and encourage like minded passengers to do the same. If enough cruisers are vocal about something, maybe someone at headquarters will listen.

 

My husband occasionally lectures on HAL and he was recently told that lecturers on Panama Canal cruises are being eliminated. Grand Voyages, transatlantic and transpacific cruises, and some longer cruises apparently will still have them. When he first lectured 8 years ago, most cruises over 14 days had lecturers. Before long, they may be gone entirely from HAL. As with many other cutbacks, it does not really save much to delete lecturers. If you value them, let HAL know. (This comment may seem self serving, but good lectures are also a highlight of cruising for me even if the lecturer is not my husband!)

 

More things will be cut as long as cruise prices stay low. I hate to see what will go when oil prices go up again.

[RuthC]

I hope that Holland America has not discontinued printing and putting out the newspapers in the morning. We really enjoyed reading those.

Would each pick up a copy in the Lido after breakfast and go out on loungers by the Lido pool and read them. Do they still print them?

Yes. The (NY) Times Digest, and other papers geared to other nationalities, are still printed and distributed---although no longer routinely delivered to cabins.

There is usually a stand holding a supply near the Lido entrance, dining room, library (or former library, depending on the ship), and Front Desk.

 

The time it is available has a lot to do with what area of the world your ship has taken you to, and satellite service.

[pnkandpurple]

Indonesian tea, Broadway shows with Bob Macky costumes and regular piano bars.