No church on Sunday

[scubacruiserx2]

On our previous HAL cruises we have had church services lead by a minister on Sunday, but not our current cruises . Mass is everyday with a priest including Sunday . The Shabbat is on the Sabbath but lead by the congregation . We have been assigned Saturday at 9:00am to celebrate the Lord's Day instead of on Sunday when we normally do and it is lead by the congregation instead of a minister  ( or priest ) . 2 of the 4 Sundays on this cruise we could have had services in the morning including today , a day at sea .  Or we could have celebrated it after the port day like mass is .  3 of the 4 Saturdays we had early port days , like Berlin , and the service was scheduled later instead earlier when we could have done both , instead of choosing one or the other . 

Edited June 23, 2019 by scubacruiserx2

[chengkp75]

While HAL has long had Catholic priests onboard every cruise, I don't recall them having Protestant ministers onboard, and so any minister leading a service would have been a passenger who volunteered to do so.  That person would likely have arranged with guest services for times to hold services, and in the absence of a volunteer, the company assigned times as spaces were available.

[richwmn]

Also, I believe the Catholic Priests are supplied by Apostleship of the Sea of the United States of America. That group is responsible for providing the Priests and making sure they are suitable

[travelnap]

I do recall that on a few cruises I was on the priest aboard the HAL ships also provided a non denominational service for the other guests who weren't Catholic for their spiritual needs.  It was much appreciated.

[1025cruise]

Its also possible that for unknown reasons, the priest assigned for the sailing didn't make it.

[Homosassa]

What is the point of this thread?  Is it a complaint or just a FYI?

[Ferry_Watcher]

Mass led by a priest is still happening on the Alaska bound Holland ships out of Seattle. 

[Randyk47]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While HAL has long had Catholic priests onboard every cruise, I don't recall them having Protestant ministers onboard, and so any minister leading a service would have been a passenger who volunteered to do so.  That person would likely have arranged with guest services for times to hold services, and in the absence of a volunteer, the company assigned times as spaces were available.

 

One of the many cutbacks over the years has been the virtual elimination of Protestant clergy. I don’t remember exactly when HAL stopped that but the last one I remember meeting was around 2011.   The one I remember talking to was a “member” of the staff with his own HAL badge not a passenger volunteering to fill in.   Seems to me they kind of weaned the line of Protestant clergy by stages, first stopping providing them on shorter cruises and eventually getting to providing them only for cruises with significant religious holidays like Christmas and Easter.  Not sure where they are now.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Randyk47

[scubacruiserx2]

Our experience was that we had a Methodist minister on the Zaandam in December of 2013 before Christmas in South America . He was called after another minister got sick . On the Eurodam in June of 2018 we also had a Methodist minister with the International Seafarers Ministry of Miami,  who had a service on Sunday . On the Zaandam this past January we also had a minister who had services on Sundays . Our current cruise on the Zuiderdam we have had 4 Sundays without a service or a minister . The current service is a interdenominational DIY  "service" with the day having been switched from Sunday to Saturday .

[bcummin]

Last December on ms Maasdam there were no interdenominational services on Sunday, so people spoke to the Guest Relations Mgr and it was added to the schedule with an apology.  Sunday mornings, led by the congregation.  Good group.  This continued until we left the ship in February.

The priest took care of his own flock, and the Jewish congregation was also DIY.

Barbara

Edited June 23, 2019 by bcummin

[scubacruiserx2]

We spoke with the Concierge and they referred to the Entertainment Department. Basically, it is set by the Home Office in Seattle. Saturdays, 9:00am. The concierge also filed a comment/complaint with Holland America. We will speak with Seattle when we get home. 

[kochleffel]

Saturday instead of Sunday seems odd to me. I can see, however, that if Sunday was a port day it would be hard to schedule without clashing with excursion plans. Some Protestant churches hold a second Sunday service in the evening and that might work on board, although then it could conflict with passengers' dinner and entertainment plans.

 

In my town, where there is a shortage of Catholic priests, one parish has its only weekend mass late on Saturday afternoon and one that has a Sunday morning mass has a second one at 5:00 p.m. on Sunday. We used to refer to the 5:00 one as the "gambler's mass" but here the official term is "regional mass."

 

As far as I know, Holland America is the only major cruise line that routinely arranges to have any clergy on board at all, except for major religious holidays (if then).

 

[Randyk47]

It might have been in a thread or maybe in an email between us but one HAL cruiser shared that despite the other cutbacks on Holland America the presence of a Catholic priest kept them cruising with the line.  As I recall they had considered other lines but regular mass was extremely important and a deal breaker for them.  I almost got the impression they would actually stop cruising regularly if a priest was not on board.   

[scubacruiserx2]

Hi kochleffel. We definitely agree about offering Sunday evening or even Saturday evening if a long port day on Sunday.

3 0f the 4 ports - 2 Sea Days, 1 port arriving at 12 noon) could have had Sunday morning services. In the 4th port, nothing was open Sunday morning .

One of the reasons we chose Holland America, is because they did have clergy onboard.

Sorry to see that option gone as far as non-denominational services. I hope they keep the Catholic Mass and Friday services for Judaism.

[rafinmd]

What's really galling about this is that Ecumenical Interfaith services is one of the services they say Priests will provide:

 

http://www.aos-usa.org/store/pg/40-About-the-Cruise-Ship-Priest-Program-clone.aspx

"

"Basic Services provided by the Cruise Ship Priest:

• Daily Mass for Cruise Passengers
• Weekly Mass for the crew
• Ecumenical or Interfaith services for non-Catholic Passengers
• Pastoral care and visitation to the infirmed for all passengers and crew
• Other religious and spiritual responsibilities as requested "

Crystal provides a Priest on every OCEAN ship (they don't have Priests on the yachts or river boats but I've also never seen a Priest on a HAL yacht or river boat) and Crystal advertises that they do an ecumenical service on "Sundays at Sea" but in fact I've very rarely seen a time when they didn't do it as well on port days.  They have always do  an excellent job.

 

I don't understand why HAL refuses to asks their priest  to perform this basic service.  I know a few take the initiative themseves but not nearly enough.

 

Roy

"

[Tampa Girl]

1 hour ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

We spoke with the Concierge and they referred to the Entertainment Department. Basically, it is set by the Home Office in Seattle. Saturdays, 9:00am. The concierge also filed a comment/complaint with Holland America. We will speak with Seattle when we get home. 

 

I guess this answers a poster's question:  It is a complaint.  If it is the Catholic Church that supplies the priests aboard the ship, why a complaint to Holland America?  They did't supply the Catholic priests, either.  How many other cruise lines, BTW, do supply clergy of any denomination?  

[AtlantaCruiser72]

If one cannot worship without the aid of a priest, minister, rabbi, imam, etc and requires an organized religious service on a proscribed day/time then perhaps cruising is not for them. HAL is a for profit business, not a religious institution. Be thankful for what they offer, be flexible in when and how you worship, and if it does not suit your personal preferences then handle your own spiritual needs in private. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

I guess this answers a poster's question:  It is a complaint.  If it is the Catholic Church that supplies the priests aboard the ship, why a complaint to Holland America?  They did't supply the Catholic priests, either.  How many other cruise lines, BTW, do supply clergy of any denomination?  

While the AOS does provide the priest, HAL does comp the fare.  So, the only possible complaint against HAL would be if they denied comping a fare for a celebrant of another religion who was offered to them by a religious organization.

 

As to another poster's question, none of the cruise lines "supply" clergy, but some have contracted with organizations like AOS to provide comped fares to clergy.

[Tampa Girl]

51 minutes ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

If one cannot worship without the aid of a priest, minister, rabbi, imam, etc and requires an organized religious service on a proscribed day/time then perhaps cruising is not for them. HAL is a for profit business, not a religious institution. Be thankful for what they offer, be flexible in when and how you worship, and if it does not suit your personal preferences then handle your own spiritual needs in private. 

👍

[Tampa Girl]

10 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

While the AOS does provide the priest, HAL does comp the fare.  So, the only possible complaint against HAL would be if they denied comping a fare for a celebrant of another religion who was offered to them by a religious organization.

 

As to another poster's question, none of the cruise lines "supply" clergy, but some have contracted with organizations like AOS to provide comped fares to clergy.

 

Thank you for the info.

[luapram]

Interesting conversation... Let me add  a little info on this...

Up till 2012 HAL had an outside entity [forget their name] that supplied non-denominational ministers for most ships over 7 days duration. In 2012 - 2017 HAL took over this responsibility and loosely followed the same pattern in placement of ministers on ships.. In 2017 it was decided that this was no longer the policy.. HAL would in future only supply ministers at Christmas, Easter etc and this is now the given with rare exceptions.

RC Priests are supplied by Apostles of the Sea on most HAL ships.

Rabbis are placed on ships as and when needed according to Jewish Holidays.. 

I know this only because I was privileged to be  a Non-Denominational minister on occasion between 2012-2016. Its was a wonderful experience to do so and I received wonderful support and assistance from the current Cruise Director of each ship I was on.

As far as I know HAL were the only cruise line that afforded this opportunity to Non-Denominational ministers for a long time.

Just thought it might give some added detail to this discussion.

Edited June 23, 2019 by luapram
additional info

[luapram]

PS.. I am not sure that HAL comps the fare for RC clergy.. I believe that HAL has a very firm policy on non-discrimination and I cannot believe they would single out one denomination over another as beneficiaries of comp fares..

Thats my assumption on this matter without any inside knowledge..

 

[Randyk47]

16 minutes ago, luapram said:

PS.. I am not sure that HAL comps the fare for RC clergy.. I believe that HAL has a very firm policy on non-discrimination and I cannot believe they would single out one denomination over another as beneficiaries of comp fares..

Thats my assumption on this matter without any inside knowledge..

 

 

The Protestant clergy I talked to said he was being comped.   I distinctly remember the conversation as his wife hadn’t been able to join him in the first cruise of something like four or five in a row.   

Edited June 23, 2019 by Randyk47

[AncientWanderer]

I'm glad this discussion has come up.  On recent sailings, I've been confused by the lack of an organized Sunday service.  Sometimes there is a service organized by passengers; sometimes nothing at all.  I think there have been instances where the Catholic priest onboard would also lead an interdenominational service, but this has not been consistent.

 

I have been confused enough, and figured we were experiencing "one-off" situations, so haven't lodged a complaint anywhere.  But I do want an ordained Christian officiant onboard -- and a Sunday service, or something akin to that, depending on port schedules.  It's important to us.  

 

 

[scubacruiserx2]

2 hours ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

If one cannot worship without the aid of a priest, minister, rabbi, imam, etc and requires an organized religious service on a proscribed day/time then perhaps cruising is not for them. HAL is a for profit business, not a religious institution. Be thankful for what they offer, be flexible in when and how you worship, and if it does not suit your personal preferences then handle your own spiritual needs in private. 

 

In Christianity, worship is the act of attributing reverent honor and homage to God.^[1] In the New Testament, various words are used to refer to the term worship. One is proskuneo ("to worship") which means to bow down to God or kings.^[2]

Throughout most of Christianity's history, corporate Christian worship has been liturgical, characterized by prayers and hymns, with texts rooted in, or closely related to, the Scripture, particularly the Psalter; this form of sacramental and ceremonial worship is still practiced by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican churches, as well as some Protestant denominations such as Lutheranism and Methodism. In Evangelicalism, worship is viewed like an act of adoration of God, with a more informal conception.

 

Have you heard of right to assemble peacefully , freedom of speech or freedom of religion ? They were written to protect people like us from people like you who would restrict or eliminate those rights if given the chance . HAL does business in America and is subject to the same laws . I worship in private and in public and have the right to protest  something if I don't like it the same as you , hence this thread that you are writing on .  But I'm not trying to restrict your freedom as you are ours . There are many groups that HAL endorses by giving them space and time to meet and allows the people to know When and Where to meet that are not for profit so it's not only about profit . God help all if cruising becomes only about profit .