PVSA definition of Round Trip

[rafinmd]

I'm wondering how the PVSA determines the difference between coastwise transportation and a round trip.  I had assumed the definition of round trip was pretty narrow as I've seen ships deadheading between Miami and Fort Lauderdale and even a Carnival ship deadheading between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

 

I've recently become aware that some people are booked on a B2B Fort Lauderdale to San Juan and then San Juan to Miami. (Crystal Serenity)  Each cruise is 8 days and there are no distant foreign ports involved.  I know that there's a PVSA exemption for San Juan making the one way voyages legal but I have a bit of trouble understanding how FTL-San Juan-Miami is legal.  I would also think if it was legal that it would have also been marketed as a 16-day cruise but it has not.

 

Does anyone know if PVSA includes cities close together, cities in the same state or something else in their definition of a round trip.  Any other way this combination is legal?

 

Thanks

Roy

 

 

[njhorseman]

35 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

I'm wondering how the PVSA determines the difference between coastwise transportation and a round trip.  I had assumed the definition of round trip was pretty narrow as I've seen ships deadheading between Miami and Fort Lauderdale and even a Carnival ship deadheading between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

 

I've recently become aware that some people are booked on a B2B Fort Lauderdale to San Juan and then San Juan to Miami. (Crystal Serenity)  Each cruise is 8 days and there are no distant foreign ports involved.  I know that there's a PVSA exemption for San Juan making the one way voyages legal but I have a bit of trouble understanding how FTL-San Juan-Miami is legal.  I would also think if it was legal that it would have also been marketed as a 16-day cruise but it has not.

 

Does anyone know if PVSA includes cities close together, cities in the same state or something else in their definition of a round trip.  Any other way this combination is legal?

 

Thanks

Roy

 

 

No...there's nothing that treats cities close together or in the same state as if they were the same port. As you say the individual cruises are legal due to the PVSA exemption for Puerto Rico, but it appears that the two itineraries combined violate the PVSA assuming you are right about no distant foreign port being part of the itinerary. I've seen cases in the past on certain Alaska itineraries where passengers were initially allowed to book two legal voyages that were illegal in combination and were later told they could not take the combined itinerary.

Edited November 30, 2019 by njhorseman

[Shmoo here]

51 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

I'm wondering how the PVSA determines the difference between coastwise transportation and a round trip.  I had assumed the definition of round trip was pretty narrow as I've seen ships deadheading between Miami and Fort Lauderdale and even a Carnival ship deadheading between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

 

I've recently become aware that some people are booked on a B2B Fort Lauderdale to San Juan and then San Juan to Miami. (Crystal Serenity)  Each cruise is 8 days and there are no distant foreign ports involved.  I know that there's a PVSA exemption for San Juan making the one way voyages legal but I have a bit of trouble understanding how FTL-San Juan-Miami is legal.  I would also think if it was legal that it would have also been marketed as a 16-day cruise but it has not.

 

Does anyone know if PVSA includes cities close together, cities in the same state or something else in their definition of a round trip.  Any other way this combination is legal?

 

Thanks

Roy

 

 

The PVSA only applies to those cruises that begin and end in different US ports.  It doesn't matter if the two ports are in the same state, city, whatever.  

 

Cruises beginning/ending in Puerto Rico are exempt from the PVSA at the current time.  So a cruise from PR to, say, Ft Lauderdale is OK.  A cruise from Miami to Ft Lauderdale wouldn't be, UNLESS a distant foreign port is visited during the cruise.

 

If both the Ft Lauderdale/PR cruise and the PR/Miami cruise were booked back to back, the PVSA only sees that a passenger embarked in Ft Lauderdale and debarked in Miami.  It doesn't matter that "it's two separate cruises".

 

I have a feeling those people already booked on that B2B will be contacted and informed that one or the other cruise must be cancelled.

 

What's the whole itinerary?  Are there any DISTANT foreign ports visited on either leg?

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Shmoo here

[njhorseman]

53 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

even a Carnival ship deadheading between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Just an additional comment on this one...Manhattan and Brooklyn are both part of the Port of New York. Brooklyn has been part of NY City for well over 100 years, although some Brooklynites may still dispute that .  

 

The deadheading was just for operational reasons, not PVSA considerations. For example several Carnival cruises this year that were originally scheduled for departure from Manhattan but were switched to Brooklyn because Pier 90 in Manhattan was undergoing renovations. At some point a ship that had been using Manhattan had to be moved to Brooklyn to start its next cruise.

Edited November 30, 2019 by njhorseman

[1025cruise]

My guess is a cruise going to/from San Juan probably includes the ABCs, so that qualifies as a distant foreign port.

But yes, Miami to FLL would need to be deadheaded. Some lines also choose to reposition as a deadhead versus a cruise so they can get the ship there faster.

[LHT28]

What would  a distant foreign port in the Caribbean be  other than the AB Cs ??

We stop at  St Barts  on both legs maybe it is fine because it is a French Island ???

[LHT28]

6 minutes ago, 1025cruise said:

My guess is a cruise going to/from San Juan probably includes the ABCs, so that qualifies as a distant foreign port.

 

No ABC ports

 Sold as  one way cruises FLL to San Juan & San Juan to Miami

[Shmoo here]

6 minutes ago, 1025cruise said:

My guess is a cruise going to/from San Juan probably includes the ABCs, so that qualifies as a distant foreign port.

Nope

1st cruise

Ft Lauderdale

Charlotte Amalie, St Thomas, Virgin Islands

Gustavia, St Barts

Castries, St Lucia

Nevis/Charlestown

Roadtown, Tortola, BVI

San Juan

 

2d cruise:

San Juan

Phillipsburg, St Maarten

Gustavia, St Barts

St Johns, Antigua & Barbuda

Charlotte Amalie, St Thomas, VI

Miami

[Flatbush Flyer]

54 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

.....Brooklyn has been part of NY City for well over 100 years, although some Brooklynites may still dispute that .  

 

So true. A tear comes to my eye every time I cross the Brooklyn Bridge into the borough of Kings and no longer see the sign from my youth that said: "Welcome to Brooklyn - 4th largest city in the U.S."😥

[rafinmd]

What a can of worms I've opened.  I guess if the voyage is illegal the best outcome might be to bus the B2B passengers to Miami and have the ship pull in briefly.  I hope all of us are missing something, and I hope chengkp75 will eventually comment.

 

Roy

[Shmoo here]

OK, @chengkp75  do you have any input on how Celebrity is able to book these two cruises B2B?

[LHT28]

1 hour ago, Shmoo here said:

OK, @chengkp75  do you have any input on how Celebrity is able to book these two cruises B2B?

it is Crystal  not X

[LHT28]

1 hour ago, rafinmd said:

What a can of worms I've opened.  I guess if the voyage is illegal the best outcome might be to bus the B2B passengers to Miami and have the ship pull in briefly.  I hope all of us are missing something, and I hope chengkp75 will eventually comment.

 

Roy

If it is not legal  then there will be  a bunch of us on the dock in San Juan totally  PO'd  LOL

 

[Shmoo here]

4 minutes ago, LHT28 said:

it is Crystal  not X

So it is...sorry. 

[VMax1700]

Is St Bart's the key?  It is an EU Overseas Territory. (I don't pay cell phone roaming charges in St Barts!)

Wikipedia :-

St. Barthélemy became an overseas territory of the European Union on 1 January 2012, but the island's inhabitants remain French citizens with EU status holding EU passports.

 

One senator represents the island in the French Senate. St. Barthélemy became an overseas territory of the European Union on 1 January 2012,^[35] but the island's inhabitants remain French citizens with EU status holding EU passports. France is responsible for the defence of the island and as such has stationed a security force on the island comprising six policemen and thirteen gendarmes (posted on two-year term).

[chengkp75]

The two cruises together do, in fact, violate the PVSA.  Not sure how well versed the Crystal compliance department is (if there is one), or how far in advance you have booked this, but be prepared to be notified that it is not allowed.

 

I don't see the ship "pulling into Miami" for the passengers to board, but it could happen.  Way too much cost.

 

As for St. Barts, it doesn't matter who the island belongs to, it is a port "in the Caribbean", which makes it a "non-distant" port.  The ABC's are considered "distant ports" as they are geographically considered to be part of South America.

[LHT28]

12 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The two cruises together do, in fact, violate the PVSA.  Not sure how well versed the Crystal compliance department is (if there is one), or how far in advance you have booked this, but be prepared to be notified that it is not allowed.

 

 

Well I guess there will be a bunch of  us  at the dock in San Juan on turnaround day if you are correct

 

[CruiserBruce]

18 hours ago, LHT28 said:

What would  a distant foreign port in the Caribbean be  other than the AB Cs ??

We stop at  St Barts  on both legs maybe it is fine because it is a French Island ???

Another distant foreign port commonly used is Cartagena, Columbia.

[1025cruise]

If it is indeed an illegal B2B, you should be contacted by the cruise line ahead of time. Unfortunately, sometimes they don't catch it until much closer to the cruise. This is usually the case when people book B2B with the Alaska repositioning cruises.

[LHT28]

59 minutes ago, 1025cruise said:

If it is indeed an illegal B2B, you should be contacted by the cruise line ahead of time. Unfortunately, sometimes they don't catch it until much closer to the cruise. This is usually the case when people book B2B with the Alaska repositioning cruises.

well you would think they would have figured it out by now  cruise leaves this Friday 😉

 

[leaveitallbehind]

As most cruise lines don't recognize B2B's as a single booked itinerary but as two separate bookings, I would think it would likely be "discovered" only if the cruse line's booking system identifies the same parties booked on the individual and separate itineraries.  You would think - in particular with adjacent itineraries such as this - that there would be a screening built into the system to identify common party bookings on each itinerary resulting the B2B.  But who knows what level of sophistication Crystal would have with this....

Edited December 1, 2019 by leaveitallbehind

[Shmoo here]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not sure how well versed the Crystal compliance department is (if there is one), or how far in advance you have booked this, but be prepared to be notified that it is not allowed.

I suppose that Crystal could be prepared to eat the fines.....

 

Maybe they already built it into the cruise fare.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Shmoo here

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Shmoo here said:

I suppose that Crystal could be prepared to eat the fines.....

 

Maybe they already built it into the cruise fare.

A "known" violation could lead to much larger fines than the per passenger fine.

[Shmoo here]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

A "known" violation could lead to much larger fines than the per passenger fine.

There's a thread running regarding this B2B situation on the Crystal forum.  And, apparently, they've all received a letter telling them the procedure.

And, (quoting here from another post) "Crystal has a good system in place to prevent illegal back-to-backs.  I know first hand because over the years I tried to book two different ones which would not work."

[LHT28]

Possibly  Crystal received an exception  as they are moving the ship back to POM   maybe it was  moved to FLL when the construction was going on at POM

 I am guessing  as this is our 1st Crystal cruise

Will know  on the 14th if we are allowed back onboard  😉