Think the CEOs are toast for Carnival/HAL and others?

[ducklite]

On 5/2/2020 at 4:05 PM, Heidi13 said:

 

Both of the first posts raise great points.

 

Any company can experience accidents or incidents, with me judging them not so much on the incident, but how they respond. Some mega ship fleets continued well into March without addressing the issues at hand with respect to pax and crew safety. This exasperated the problems, but how have they responded?

 

Many cruise lines have determined their core crews and repatriated non-essential crew, at least where their country is accepting the return of citizens. Those ships are now secured alongside various ports and non-essential crews have been at home for 2 weeks to a month. These are the CEO's and management teams that responded well.

 

Why do we still have > 100 ships in US waters with almost 100,000 crew waiting to return home. Surely the CEO's should be out there moving mountains to get their "Most Valuable Resources" home. It is now May and all we hear is silence, but almost 100,000 crew remain on ships in/near US waters. Read that one cruise line considered it too expensive to disembark a US crew member in a US port, as they had to send them home without using public transport.

 

That would indicate the CEO's most valuable resource is the shareholder, not the crew. When cruising resumes, we will definitely remember which cruise lines looked after both the pax and the crew. Even if they change CEO's it will take some time to see any prolonged change for the better.

 

 

The textbook example of taking care of your customers and crew was US #1549, a/k/a "The Miracle on the Hudson."  Without hesitation they took care of passengers and crew.  Those who chose to fly again were re-booked when they felt comfortable to fly (in many cases people stayed in hotels and ate on US's dime for a couple of days).  Those who didn't want to fly were provided with alternate transportation (train, rental car, additional hotels as needed). 

There was continued follow up for months.  Their personal items were retrieved, cleaned, and returned.  That included a fur coat and a $10,000 diamond engagement ring which was personally hand delivered to it's owner by a senior manager.  I'm not a huge fan of Dougie, but he got it right by reacting instead of hiding, and that instilled public confidence in his airline.

[rkacruiser]

22 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Back on topic:  are the cruise lines’s CEO’s “toast”.   We seem to have strayed into the realm of “everyone makes mistakes”.  Carnival’s management seem to have made a serious gamble - taking on very expensive (11.5%) debt , issuing a huge chunk of common stock as well as new convertible debt which, combined, virtually guarantees that existing stockholders are unlikely to ever recover.  It has left them in control — and it may work for them.  If it doesn’t, the Monday morning quarterbacks will have a field day.

 

Since when was whatever any of us made an investment into the Market not a gamble?  

[rkacruiser]

22 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Back on topic:  are the cruise lines’s CEO’s “toast”.   We seem to have strayed into the realm of “everyone makes mistakes”.  Carnival’s management seem to have made a serious gamble - taking on very expensive (11.5%) debt , issuing a huge chunk of common stock as well as new convertible debt which, combined, virtually guarantees that existing stockholders are unlikely to ever recover.  It has left them in control — and it may work for them.  If it doesn’t, the Monday morning quarterbacks will have a field day.

 

Since when was whatever any of us made an investment into the Market not a gamble?  

[rkacruiser]

The following comment may seem unrealistic to some.  

 

The Great Recession of 2008-2009 provides some guidance during this economic crisis for cruise companies.  RCL's low share price far exceeded what CCL's ever did during that time.  The current Executives and most of the Board of Trustee members of both Companies are mostly the same now as they were then, if I am correct.  These gentlemen and gentlewomen have more knowledge of the business world than I do or ever will.  They led us common shareholders through the shoals then.  Why ought I not expect them to do so in 2020?  

 

 

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

31 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Since when was whatever any of us made an investment into the Market not a gamble?  

Agreed:  anyone who invests in equities is making a gamble (unless, of course, he is trading on certain inside information).  But this thread is about whether cruise line senior management might be “toast”.  And, it is pretty clear that what they are gambling with is their stockholders’ interests - and not just their own.  The deals Carnival management have made might very well serure their own on-going employment — but they have not necessarily been very much in the interests of their long-term stockholders who, if the gamble does not pay off, will be at the bottom end of a long list of people hoping to see some pay-off—- and it is their interests which have been thrown into the pot.

[navybankerteacher]

23 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

The following comment may seem unrealistic to some.  

 

The Great Recession of 2008-2009 provides some guidance during this economic crisis for cruise companies.  RCL's low share price far exceeded what CCL's ever did during that time.  The current Executives and most of the Board of Trustee members of both Companies are mostly the same now as they were then, if I am correct.  These gentlemen and gentlewomen have more knowledge of the business world than I do or ever will.  They led us common shareholders through the shoals then.  Why ought I not expect them to do so in 2020?  

 

 

 

 

For one thing, this global slowdown is very different from previous recessions: in numbers unemployed and in state and federal budgets upended - to mention just a couple of new elements. Also, their industry is far more exposed to serious disruption by the present situation than anything in previous experience.  It is a very different game — across the board.

[rkacruiser]

No quibble with your thoughts.  It's a new day and age.  

 

Stay safe; stay well!

[rattanchair]

Just to 'stir the pot' a bit in this intermediate time. I have read that the CDC wants the top 3 officials of every cruise line to sign some document assuring the safe repatriation of their crew through US territories. Only Royal Caribbean did so, but only for one crew member, a cruise director. All cruise lines are balking at the personal liability of their top officials.  When there are no consequences, where does 'the buck stop' ? As an extreme example of the power of consequences I recall the story of one of the most polluted rivers in the world, the Singapore river. The PM Lee decided to clean it up. The official version is they took a "holistic" approach over many years ( most palatable for sensitive readers), but the 'urban legend' contends that the PM decreed that any business/industry caught polluting the river would be fined $100,000 for the first offense, a second offense the government would hang the CEO/owner. For many years since the Singapore river is supposedly one of the cleanest. A testament to consequences.

[mom says]

No idea what you're getting at. You want them to hang the CEOs if they don't sign the documents?

 

Why should the CEOs be singled out, rather than the corporation? I don't believe the US has the death penalty for these situations. Wouldn't a substantial fine of the corporation be more appropriate?

Edited May 7, 2020 by mom says

[cruisemom42]

6 hours ago, rattanchair said:

Just to 'stir the pot' a bit in this intermediate time. I have read that the CDC wants the top 3 officials of every cruise line to sign some document assuring the safe repatriation of their crew through US territories. Only Royal Caribbean did so, but only for one crew member, a cruise director. All cruise lines are balking at the personal liability of their top officials.  When there are no consequences, where does 'the buck stop' ? As an extreme example of the power of consequences I recall the story of one of the most polluted rivers in the world, the Singapore river. The PM Lee decided to clean it up. The official version is they took a "holistic" approach over many years ( most palatable for sensitive readers), but the 'urban legend' contends that the PM decreed that any business/industry caught polluting the river would be fined $100,000 for the first offense, a second offense the government would hang the CEO/owner. For many years since the Singapore river is supposedly one of the cleanest. A testament to consequences.

 

You certainly are stirring the pot.

 

The CDC has a page dedicated to this issue, and it's clear from viewing it that a number of cruise lines have signed the agreement and have repatriated or have planned to repatriate certain crew/staff. This includes Princess, NCL, Royal Caribbean, Oceania, Carnival, Disney, Celebrity, Carnival, Regent Seven Seas and even Virgin Voyages (I didn't even know they were already operating....)

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/cruise-ship/cruise-ship-member-disembarkations.html

[BlueRiband]

Crew members are stuck on board not only because the US CDC won't let them board commercial flights but their home countries have restrictions on incoming international flights and/or movement within the country.  The Philippines, a country that supplies about a third of passenger ship crew, has severely restricted all incoming flights. 

 

International SOS Travel Restrictions

[ducklite]

8 hours ago, BlueRiband said:

Crew members are stuck on board not only because the US CDC won't let them board commercial flights but their home countries have restrictions on incoming international flights and/or movement within the country.  The Philippines, a country that supplies about a third of passenger ship crew, has severely restricted all incoming flights. 

 

International SOS Travel Restrictions

As someone who lives in Florida where there were numerous cases were brought to this state by cruisers who were allowed off of sick ships without a quarantine to go wherever, and who accepted far more than their share of sick crew members into our hospitals (Florida homeowners who pay for the hospitals through their property taxes and I hope to hell we aren't stuck with bills from un/under-insured sick passengers and crew) I'm glad that they aren't allowed to use commercial flights.  In Orlando we have at least seven TSA officers with COVID-19.  To be honest they should all be quarantined on the ship until the ship is 100% disease free for two weeks before they are even allowed on dry land.

[bettyboop16]

On 5/2/2020 at 3:45 PM, evandbob said:

The cruise line CEO's are probably busy figuring out how they can give themselves a raise for having to perform under such duress.

Just like politicians!

[ilikeanswers]

I saw a little piece on TV where they talked about one cruise line where the senior management bonuses were linked to how few interruptions they can achieve for the cruises under their responsibility. It was suggested that such a pay structure might be linked to why they didn't implement stricter health protocols and why they continued to cruise even when many itineraries were being suspended and cancelled. If it is true I would say that was a misstep on the part of the CEOs not to suspend such a pay structure as it was pretty clear after Diamond it would not be a normal cruising season therefore they should not be pushing for the same goals and readjusted their expectations🙄.

[CruiserBruce]

Well....if the CEOs and other top management get canned, the cruise lines will only have to post job announcements one place...here on Cruise Critic, to get a rich supply of qualified replacements!!

[rattanchair]

15 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

You certainly are stirring the pot.

 

The CDC has a page dedicated to this issue, and it's clear from viewing it that a number of cruise lines have signed the agreement and have repatriated or have planned to repatriate certain crew/staff. This includes Princess, NCL, Royal Caribbean, Oceania, Carnival, Disney, Celebrity, Carnival, Regent Seven Seas and even Virgin Voyages (I didn't even know they were already operating....)

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/cruise-ship/cruise-ship-member-disembarkations.html

Try https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Attestation-for-Non-Commercial-Travel-Pre-Approval-of-NSO-Response-Plan_042320_final_fillable-p.pdf

[rattanchair]

As of May 7, 2020 from the OP's excellent link shows RCCL Liberty of the Seas repatriated 1 (one) the CD. They were the only execs to sign at the time I originally posted, and only for him. The CDC appears to have very strict compliance protocols demanded of the cruise lines, but that might well be just to cover the CDC's butt, because the penalties are not 'spelled out' and the CDC enforcement/consequences are like a bite from a 'toothless' dog IMHO.

[rattanchair]

6 hours ago, ducklite said:

To be honest they should all be quarantined on the ship until the ship is 100% disease free for two weeks before they are even allowed on dry land.

To be honest, I agree 99%. The 1% is unless it was me on that ship.

[rattanchair]

The second wave is about to begin. The 100,000 thousand yet to be repatriated will bring the second wave.  There is no way 'signed' papers are going to stop asymptomatics from carrying this plaque back to their home countries and through the US via lax, unsupervised, untrained, low paid crew, wearing flimsy face masks (hiding their smiles) as they pose for TV cameras.

[clo]

14 minutes ago, rattanchair said:

asymptomatics f

I've not read anything that if one is asymptomatic that one remains contagious for any longer than a symptomatic person. Isn't the incubation period something like 2 to 14 days and haven't they been at sea longer than that? I don't know; time is very befuddling these days.

[rattanchair]

4 minutes ago, clo said:

I've not read anything that if one is asymptomatic that one remains contagious for any longer than a symptomatic person. Isn't the incubation period something like 2 to 14 days and haven't they been at sea longer than that? I don't know; time is very befuddling these days.

Dear clo,  Good point, but 'Typhoid Mary' and report of people being infectious (?)or infected  6 weeks after being negative turning positive.  This is not a good situation. Why else would the CDC want to have papers signed and protocols followed.. because they do not know as well.  The CDC is bending to public pressures to allow repatriation of these "poor" crew.

[clo]

1 minute ago, rattanchair said:

Dear clo,  Good point, but 'Typhoid Mary' and report of people being infectious (?)or infected  6 weeks after being negative turning positive.  This is not a good situation. Why else would the CDC want to have papers signed and protocols followed.. because they do not know as well.  The CDC is bending to public pressures to allow repatriation of these "poor" crew.

And good point to you also. There are countless unanswered questions that will remain that way until there's enough data t analyze.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, rattanchair said:

As of May 7, 2020 from the OP's excellent link shows RCCL Liberty of the Seas repatriated 1 (one) the CD. They were the only execs to sign at the time I originally posted, and only for him. The CDC appears to have very strict compliance protocols demanded of the cruise lines, but that might well be just to cover the CDC's butt, because the penalties are not 'spelled out' and the CDC enforcement/consequences are like a bite from a 'toothless' dog IMHO.

 

It is not true that, as you assert above, they were the "only execs to sign" at the time you originally posted.

 

Two days ago this article appeared in the Tampa Bay Tribune. It leads with the agreement to sign the letters by RCCL, which includes Celebrity and Azamara (Lisa Lutoff-Perlo is the head exec for Celebrity and is named.)

 

Also, the article goes on to detail that "Other cruise companies have been using the CDC’s process — including the required signatures from executives — albeit sparingly."

 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/05/royal-caribbean-executives-agree-to-terms-for-disembarking-crew-stuck-on-ships/

[rattanchair]

25 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

It is not true that, as you assert above, they were the "only execs to sign" at the time you originally posted.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242380421.html

[rattanchair]

CDC/Cruiseline Standoff ?

By rattanchair, May 1 in Ask a Cruise QuestionI 

P.S. As I stated, they will probably fall into line. But to what or to whose advantage ? Never to the cruising public. This CDC/Cruise line thing is all a 'dog and pony' show.

Edited May 7, 2020 by rattanchair
P.S.