Think the CEOs are toast for Carnival/HAL and others?

[CruiserBruce]

2 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

    Actually, no - there are no fingers pointing at the folks who challenge the cruise executives & their online defenders here.
 
    Why is that?

     -- Because we didn't take on responsibility for tens of thousands of people ... and then botch the job catastrophically, generating back-to-back-to-back-to-back crises during a pandemic;

 

     -- The deaths from Zaandam, Diamond, Grand, Coral, Ruby, Luminosa, Solstice, Ovation, Voyager, Oasis, Eclipse, Fabulosa are not on our heads in any way whatsoever. Fain, Donald, Duffy and their executive teams cannot say as much;

 

     -- We haven't quietly stranded thousands of crew members for weeks and weeks, trying to sneak out of our obligations on the cheap & blame the CDC for the whole mess; 
 

     --  We didn't load our corporate websites with high-sounding platitudes about safety ... then sail one ship after another into chaos, jeopardizing passengers and crew alike;
 

     "Carnival Cruise Line’s highest responsibilities include the health and safety of our guests and crew."

     

     "At Royal Caribbean International, the safety and security of our guests and crew is our highest priority and fundamental to our operations."

     Yet ... as of April 23, the Miami Herald had the death count for Carnival & subsidiaries at 59, RCI at 10.  😲
      
   

     

 

20-20 hindsight...particularly regarding Zaandam. Easy to second guess and condemn now.

[Cruzaholic41]

3 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

    Actually, no - there are no fingers pointing at the folks who challenge the cruise executives & their online defenders here.
 

Who is defending cruise executives?  I see knowledgeable people posting facts about the law. That’s is not the same as defending. What I also see is people asking you about your claim that laws are being ignored, and I have yet to see an answer from you. 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

13 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

20-20 hindsight...particularly regarding Zaandam. Easy to second guess and condemn now.

Same specious cliche that's been debated and debunked on CC many, many times. Read the archives.

[rattanchair]

15 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 "Carnival Cruise Line’s highest responsibilities include the health and safety of our guests and crew."

     

     "At Royal Caribbean International, the safety and security of our guests and crew is our highest priority and fundamental to our operations."

     Yet ... as of April 23, the Miami Herald had the death count for Carnival & subsidiaries at 59, RCI at 10.  😲
      

I still have not forgiven nor forgotten the cruise lines for my bouts of norovirus. Their deep cleaning methods failed us time and time again. Now with a "killer" pathogen loose, the CDC and Congress has to step in "where angels fear to tread". I stopped flying after 9/11 so I have no 'beef' with the airlines. Somebody has to force somebody to clean up this mess on a beloved mode of vacationing for my sake if not for 'yours'. Your physical bodies can obviously handle  endemic ship born toxins, thus your cavalier attitudes, but wait, you too will suffer the ravages of time.  You will thank us later for bringing the cruise lines into the 21st century. Their registry in foreign lands to avoid regulation is over (I hope). Every disaster has a "silver lining". I hope this is it.

[rattanchair]

Those CDC sanitation inspections should be every time a ship visits a US port. And the CDC should be given some "Teeth" that should the ship fail its inspection it does not sail, or at least no passengers allowed to board. That might wake them up.

[clo]

1 hour ago, rattanchair said:

Those CDC sanitation inspections should be every time a ship visits a US port. And the CDC should be given some "Teeth" that should the ship fail its inspection it does not sail, or at least no passengers allowed to board. That might wake them up.

I wish CDC would make public what they're requiring but they seem to be hobbled these days.

[rattanchair]

2 minutes ago, clo said:

I wish CDC would make public what they're requiring but they seem to be hobbled these days.

I do not think they know either. I only hope they find a cruise czar among their "best and brightest" who has suffered the effects of dysentery while on a cruise, to look into formulating these requirements. (That person should not be so hard to find).

[rattanchair]

The problem with the whole world is that there are no consequences. With 'good' lawyers and deep pockets, one can get away with murder.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

23 minutes ago, rattanchair said:

The problem with the whole world is that there are no consequences. With 'good' lawyers and deep pockets, one can get away with murder.

 

Best post of the day.   😉

[Cruzaholic41]

42 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

Best post of the day.   😉

Sure, if crimes were being ignored or bought away. But you still can’t list a single crime that’s being ignored, as you so insisted. 

[Cruzaholic41]

1 hour ago, rattanchair said:

The problem with the whole world is that there are no consequences. With 'good' lawyers and deep pockets, one can get away with murder.

 
No consequences?  None?  Wow. 🙄

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, rattanchair said:

You will thank us later for bringing the cruise lines into the 21st century. Their registry in foreign lands to avoid regulation is over (I hope). Every disaster has a "silver lining". I hope this is it.

 

Both of these statements confirm a lack of understanding in how this industry has evolved from liner shipping to the current pre-COVID mega ships and the regulatory quagmire of multiple levels of regulation from International to local.

 

Pre-COVID, the mass market cruise lines were providing the services that many cruisers wanted, especially the new generation of cruisers - floating destination resorts at budget pricing. The ships, with ever increasing number of activities were the primary attraction, with budget pricing attained by economy of scale. We also have luxury/premium cruise lines that provide a different experience, with lower pax counts and a focus on the ports, many of which are more remote. Since cruise ships were sailing full and shipyard order books were full, the cruise lines, in the 21st Century, were obviously providing what the customer demanded.

 

Will that change post-COVID, most definitely yes, but you need a crystal ball to know how the cruise ship of the future will evolve. It is nothing to do with dragging cruise ships into the 21st Century. Cruise ships will be no different than other industries - airlines, entertainment venues, sports venues, mass transit, etc where they will change to meet evolving customer expectations in the new norms we are experiencing.

 

With respect to re-flagging ships to US flag, assuming you are a US citizen. You have an example of a US flagged cruise ship in Hawaii, which probably isn't overly successful. Maritime regulations are complex, with International, National and even local regulations from ports. Any Nation that is signatory to IMO, must implement National Regulations meeting the minimum requirement of SOLAS, MARPOL, STCW, ISM, ISPS, etc. Therefore, regardless of where the ship is flagged it must comply with minimal IMO requirements. As ships trade they are subject to Port State Control Inspections, where foreign-flagged ships are inspected for compliance with major international conventions.

 

Cruise ships also have ISM systems that dictate how the ship will be operated. Having written an updated deck operations ISM manual for my last company, the operational standards were well in excess of regulatory minimums. Personally, I can't imagine commanding a vessel that operates at minimum regulatory standards. During my research, I reviewed the procedures of a few cruise lines, noting their procedures were also well in excess of regulatory minimums.

 

While I have no knowledge of US maritime regulations, I have no doubt that the ISM procedures I developed would be in excess of the US regulations, so no benefit would arise from re-flagging. I expect this would be consistent for most cruise ships, which routinely pass Port State Inspections in many countries.

 

Since 80% of accidents are caused by human error, many shipping lines, are putting resources into Human Factors and Risk Analysis training, which are proven to significantly reduce the potential for human errors going undetected. Are these key initiatives included in maritime regulations; I know they aren't required by Canadian regs and doubt they are included in US Regs. However, many cruise lines now incorporate these objectives in their Deck & Engineer training programs and Bridge & Engine Room operations. Yet another example that re-flagging provides no safety enhancements.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, rattanchair said:

The problem with the whole world is that there are no consequences. With 'good' lawyers and deep pockets, one can get away with murder.

 

I know of an Italian cruise ship Master that certainly would disagree with this statement.

 

Every day I went to work, I was very aware of the potential consequences of my actions - they were listed in the Shipping Act and pursuant Regulations.

[rkacruiser]

48 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Since 80% of accidents are caused by human error, many shipping lines, are putting resources into Human Factors and Risk Analysis training, which are proven to significantly reduce the potential for human errors going undetected. 

 

Your post provided an "Aha!" thought for me.  Perhaps what you are saying was a reason why HAL hired Orlando Ashford to be their CEO?  He came with a Human Relations background.

[rkacruiser]

21 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

We haven't quietly stranded thousands of crew members for weeks and weeks, trying to sneak out of our obligations on the cheap & blame the CDC for the whole mess; 

 

The repatriating countries of the crew members have a major responsibility for this situation.  There are 22, soon to be 24 ships, stranded in Manila Bay waiting to repatriate their Filipino crews.  Similar delays were experienced in Indonesia trying to repatriate the citizens of that country.  

[Aquahound]

3 hours ago, rattanchair said:

The problem with the whole world is that there are no consequences. With 'good' lawyers and deep pockets, one can get away with murder.

 

3 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

Best post of the day.   😉

 

I guess ignorance is bliss nowadays, or at least a sense that one's own impressions are worldly fact.  I cannot say enough how wrong both of you are.  On this thread you have a ship's master, chief engineer and criminal maritime investigator trying to tell you that the maritime industry, both cargo and passengers, is one of the most highly regulated industries in this country, and in the world for that matter. But go ahead and keep believing your conspiracy theories, along with internet posts by ambulance chasing lawyers who never actually worked on a ship.  Deep pockets can get away with murder?  Yeah.  Try telling that to the largest cruise operator in the world, Carnival, who just got slapped across the face with a 60 million dollar fine, and is still on criminal probation today.  

Edited May 17, 2020 by Aquahound

[rattanchair]

26 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

60 million dollar fine

I am not an accountant either, but a gross revenue of 4.4 billion netting 3.7 billion for one cruise line in 2018 makes 60 million seem worth paying to continue whatever they did to warrant the fine. It must have been extremely important to their 'bottom line'. And who is to say they paid the fine? With their 'good' lawyers on their staff, they will undoubtedly fight it for years to come. As they all will fight than succumb to new regulations that benefit the passengers over their making a 'buck'. Has anyone asked these cruise line executives "How much is enough, and at what expense?"

  Ignorance has always been my bliss, when I am subjected to the horrors I have to witness everyday on the telly. Time to put the kettle on. Ta ta

[Aquahound]

17 minutes ago, rattanchair said:

I am not an accountant either, but a gross revenue of 4.4 billion netting 3.7 billion for one cruise line in 2018 makes 60 million seem worth paying to continue whatever they did to warrant the fine. It must have been extremely important to their 'bottom line'. And who is to say they paid the fine? With their 'good' lawyers on their staff, they will undoubtedly fight it for years to come. As they all will fight than succumb to new regulations that benefit the passengers over their making a 'buck'. Has anyone asked these cruise line executives "How much is enough, and at what expense?"

 

 

Wrong again.  Carnival pleaded guilty to the crimes and agreed to pay the fine as a condition of pleading guilty.  No contest.  Oh, and did I mention all ships under the Carnival Corp umbrella are on a court imposed Environmental Compliance Plan and are subject to random, unannounced inspections...which, by the way, helped lead to the additional 20 million they had to pay for violating probation?  As the saying goes, you're welcome to your own opinions, but not your own facts.  

[ontheweb]

On 5/16/2020 at 3:53 PM, navybankerteacher said:

It is absurd to ask what law has been broken - or to insist that cited law has been broken before starting some procedure.

 

If that “very slim possibility”  plays out - that someone downstream became infected (and possibly died) due to what is subsequently found to be negligence on the part of a corporate officer, that officer can be charged with criminal negligence - and the statute which provides for prison time for criminal negligence will, in fact, be “the current law“.

 

 This is what criminal negligence is about - of course the corporate officer did not knowingly break a specific law — but if it is subsequently found, that through his negligence, (yes, second guessing ) that harm was done - then the law which penalizes criminal negligence is the law which he has run afoul of.

 

 

 

How can you say it does not matter what law if any was broken? Here is an example of a unanimous Supreme Court decision 100% disagreeing with you.

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/851858598/supreme-court-overturns-convictions-in-bridgegate-scandal

 

What these people did was terrible and endangered a lot of lives as it not only affected regular vehicles, but also emergency service vehicles and all for political gain. Yet the Supreme Court unanimously overturned the convictions since they could not find it as breaking a law.

[ilikeanswers]

3 hours ago, Aquahound said:

Wrong again.  Carnival pleaded guilty to the crimes and agreed to pay the fine as a condition of pleading guilty.  No contest.  Oh, and did I mention all ships under the Carnival Corp umbrella are on a court imposed Environmental Compliance Plan and are subject to random, unannounced inspections...which, by the way, helped lead to the additional 20 million they had to pay for violating probation?  As the saying goes, you're welcome to your own opinions, but not your own facts.  

 

Out of curiosity did their punishment in anyway restrict the operations of Carnival or take away opportunities that were on the table? To be honest I am not a huge fan of fines as punishment because of it is too easy to pay off then it won't motivate change in behaviour. Is there any other punishment that comes with the crime? 

 

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Out of curiosity did their punishment in anyway restrict the operations of Carnival or take away opportunities that were on the table? To be honest I am not a huge fan of fines as punishment because of it is too easy to pay off then it won't motivate change in behaviour. Is there any other punishment that comes with the crime? 

 

I was going to relate some of the strictures of being on an ECP, as I have worked for two ship owners that were on DOJ probation (including NCL), and worked under the original ECP that the DOJ has adopted as the "gold standard", but that's really not what you're asking.  Carnival's operations (their sailings) were not directly restricted by the settlement, though their onboard procedures and operations are restricted in various ways (things that go on down in engineering, that pax would never notice).  I am sure that the violation was taken into consideration when licenses for Alaskan fjord permits were granted, which is why Princess no longer holds these, and it will factor into decisions on these permits for years to come.

 

As noted, Carnival is on probation, so there is a third party firm that audits the corporation's performance in following the ECP that the court and DOJ has approved, and which reports to the "court appointed auditor", who then prepares reports to the court on the status of compliance as to whether the probation is being met.  If the terms of the probation and ECP are not being met, the corporation can be brought back to court, as Carnival was, and further sanctions can be applied.  While I agree that one time, lump sum fines are not great for ensuring compliance, the judge in the case had threatened a daily fine of $1 million for each day that compliance lagged behind agreed upon benchmarks and deadlines.  The judge also threatened to disallow all Carnival ships from docking in US ports, which was widely seen here on CC as unlikely because of the economic impact to the US economy, but it would not be unprecedented, especially if it was limited to the worst offender ships of the corporation, and for a limited amount of time.  It is certainly within the judge's jurisdiction to do so.

[richstowe]

Boy the Cruise industry is in serious dodo if the comments here reflect common sentiment . 

On 5/16/2020 at 2:23 PM, Aquahound said:

 

I don't understand what you're getting at.  What do you mean "who gets away with crime" regarding elections?  Again, what crime?  We can't just make up domestic crimes because we don't like the scenario of crew being stuck on foreign flagged ships, and because an ambulance-chaser attorney is up to his regular shenanigans. 

 

If you think a crime is being committed, please show me the statute and I'd be happy to opine on it.   

It bothers me to go to Walker's site but the screen shot grabbed my attention . Notice the stock prices ? Del Rio should go while the going's good . 

Edited May 18, 2020 by richstowe
Del Rio ain't gone yet

[Aquahound]

23 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Out of curiosity did their punishment in anyway restrict the operations of Carnival or take away opportunities that were on the table? To be honest I am not a huge fan of fines as punishment because of it is too easy to pay off then it won't motivate change in behaviour. Is there any other punishment that comes with the crime? 

 

 

Sorry, just now getting back.  Darn job gets in the way. 

 

Anyways, I can't say that it restricted their operations or took any particular opportunities off the table but the probation and associated ECP is forcing a change to their corporate culture.  Little things they like to take credit for, like the removal of certain single use plastics from their ships, or hiring environmental officers (I think it was HAL that didn't have them), are actually a result of their court ordered probation, ordering them to take aggressive steps toward environmental protection.  Also, the Miami federal judge, who is a no-nonsense woman, was very stern in her threat to block Carnival from entering US ports if they didn't get their act together. 

 

Also, while $60 million may not be a huge hit against Carnival Corp, it's notable that it was the largest environment fine ever imposed on a cruise corporation by the US courts.  I've been in the biz a long time and I've never seen anything close to that.  Most environmental cases, like the bypassing of oily water separators, result in a fine of around $1 million. Actually the Exxon Valdez fine was much higher, but most of it was forgiven so they only paid a small percentage. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Aquahound

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:20 AM, rattanchair said:

I still have not forgiven nor forgotten the cruise lines for my bouts of norovirus. Their deep cleaning methods failed us time and time again. Now with a "killer" pathogen loose, the CDC and Congress has to step in "where angels fear to tread". I stopped flying after 9/11 so I have no 'beef' with the airlines. Somebody has to force somebody to clean up this mess on a beloved mode of vacationing for my sake if not for 'yours'. Your physical bodies can obviously handle  endemic ship born toxins, thus your cavalier attitudes, but wait, you too will suffer the ravages of time.  You will thank us later for bringing the cruise lines into the 21st century. Their registry in foreign lands to avoid regulation is over (I hope). Every disaster has a "silver lining". I hope this is it.

 

And, erp, now there's:

 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242565281.html

But I can already hear the tap shoes warming up .....

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, Aquahound said:

Also, while $60 million may not be a huge hit against Carnival Corp, it's notable that it was the largest environment fine ever imposed on a cruise corporation by the US courts.  I've been in the biz a long time and I've never seen anything close to that.

Overseas Shipholding Group paid $37 million back in 2006.  Largest ever at that time.