Rethinking Muster Drills

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, sanger727 said:

... of abandoning ship when it’s in fire AND smoke is obscuring visibility in the muster and AND the ship is listing AND with the goal of everyone being off the ship in 30 minutes. I would suspect that this is an extreme situation that only professional mariners would be able to pull off; once you add passengers, disabilities, special needs into the mix; isnt going to happen. Based on what some of the professionals have posted I would think that the goal would be to at least have passengers at the lifeboats if not boarding already well before the situation escalated this far.

 

As Paul mentioned that is quite a scenario, but is a standard to which we trained.

 

However, even with that level of scenario, having to abandon ship is not one of my first considerations. Even when I went to sea in 1975, from day 1 we were taught the best lifeboat is the ship. With current safe return to port standards, ship survivability is much enhanced from my first ships.

 

Fire is a significant danger, but ships are designed to contain fire and with modern fixed Hi-Fog systems fires are generally quickly knocked down and contained. Consequently shipboard fire-fighting is completely different from shore-based fire-fighting. Assembly Stations, as least the internal ones on all my ships are also protected by structural fire protection. However, in the event an Assembly Station is unusable, as the Chief mentioned, they have alternatives.

 

Just because the Master decides to sound GES, doesn't mean he/she is planning to issue the order to "Abandon Ship". The pax are mustered at the Assembly Stations, as these are safe places. As I mentioned in a previous post, it was my plan to sound GES earlier rather than later. 

 

As the Chief indicated, the 30 min is a metric for the survival craft, it is not a requirement that the entire ship could be evacuated safely within that time period. Everyone who has actually launched the various survival craft know the challenges in launching them safely and getting them all safely away from the ship.

 

Many pax vessels have affected an orderly evacuation of the vessel. A recent example being Viking Sky off the Norwegian Coast. Although it didn't involve fire, it was rolling heavily in strong winds, with a lee shore. The pax were mustered, when seas breached one of the Assembly Stations, with pax being moved to alternative locations. In this case, the Master correctly decided it was too dangerous to abandon  the vessel using the survival craft, so he requested a helo evac. No way the ship could be safely evacuated within 30 mins, but as we noted, the 30 mins is a metric for individual survival craft.

 

If the 30 mins was a metric to actually evacuate the ship it would encourage Masters to issue the "Abandon Ship" order sooner rather than later, which is contrary to the SOLAS Safe Return to Port standards.

 

As a pax, generally the safest place to be in the event of a shipboard emergency is in an Assembly Station. Personally, if I have to be in a fully loaded lifeboat, I can only hope it is the shortest time possible. Do I want to sit in a lifeboat waiting for the Master to issue "Abandon Ship" most definitely NO. If you have ever been in a fully loaded lifeboat you will understand. You should be aware that pax comfort is not included in lifeboat construction regs. 

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, ontheweb said:

While we're getting rid of all those things that interfere with our pleasant cruise, why not eliminate the lifeboats entirely? They are a reminder that things could go terribly wrong. And also they block the view from Oceanview cabins.

 

If really needed in an emergency, just use a digital printer and voila lifeboats.

 

Note to anyone who takes this seriously---THIS IS MEANT AS SARCASM!

 

Good one. Along similar lines, since RCI have invented the eMuster, might they also be working on the eAbandon Ship.😁

 

However, a company that mentions impacting the holiday more than ship safety is a company that I certainly wouldn't work for, nor will we ever cruise with them as a pax.

 

Another consideration is Section 5 of the ISM Code, which requires the company to include a statement in their SMS that the Master has the overriding authority and responsibility for decisions with respect to safety and pollution prevention.

 

In my experience, the eMuster is a potential detriment to safety, so the Master has the ability to require a proper pax Muster. Would be a brave Master.

[sanger727]

4 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

 

 

As a pax, generally the safest place to be in the event of a shipboard emergency is in an Assembly Station. Personally, if I have to be in a fully loaded lifeboat, I can only hope it is the shortest time possible. Do I want to sit in a lifeboat waiting for the Master to issue "Abandon Ship" most definitely NO. If you have ever been in a fully loaded lifeboat you will understand. You should be aware that pax comfort is not included in lifeboat construction regs. 

i understand this. I may not have phrased my response to the prior poster well. Trying to operate within the parameters of his scenario with the fire, smoke, listing, and 30 minutes (I realize that isn’t the timeline to evacuate the ship, but that was the posters scenario ). What I was trying to say was that if the ship HAS to be empty at 1900, there should not be passengers in a muster station where they can’t breathe or see due to smoke because of an encroaching fire at 1830.

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

On a ship the size of MSC Meraviglia (on which I sailed in January), with my Muster Station packed with guests in the Main Theater, where might that be?  The other Muster Stations were aft of my location on the same deck as best that I know.  They would be full, I suspect.  Where might be the alternative Muster Station?  

Without knowing where all the primary muster stations are on the ship, I can guess from the deck plans that any public space on decks 5,6, or 7 would be used, as well as outside at the boats.  These areas may be smaller, and the original muster station may have to be broken up.

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Fire is a significant danger, but ships are designed to contain fire and with modern fixed Hi-Fog systems fires are generally quickly knocked down and contained. Consequently shipboard fire-fighting is completely different from shore-based fire-fighting. Assembly Stations, as least the internal ones on all my ships are also protected by structural fire protection. However, in the event an Assembly Station is unusable, as the Chief mentioned, they have alternatives.

Our ships at NCL had an officer position of "Firefighter", who was typically a land based fireman, or in the US a "smoke jumper" forestry firefighter, and whose job it was to train the fire teams onboard, maintain the firefighting equipment, and to lead the primary attack team in a fire scenario.  As I said, nearly all of them were experienced land firefighters, and we got into some heated arguments over firefighting techniques, since one of the basic cores of land firefighting is to get everyone "out of the building", while at sea, you can't "leave the building", the ship is your universe.

 

We also had frequent liaison meetings with Honolulu firefighters to discuss joint operations in case of a fire in port.  They were amazed at the amount of equipment, and the size of the equipment that we had onboard.  The ship, as all ships do, has an "international shore connection" so that shore fire companies can connect their hoses to the ship's firemain system.  On cruise ships, these connections have a "backflow preventer" on them, so that if the shore firemen shut off their supply, the ship's supply will not flow back to the city, but stay on the ship.  When the HFD saw how large our  fire pumps were (we have 3), they knew that as long as the ship maintained power, the ship's pumps would overpower the shore engines, and they could not supply any water to the ship, so that their main contribution would be to provide boundary cooling from the pier. 

[MBP&O2/O]

The “30 minute” conversation intrigues me.
If memory serves me correctly ...
From the time our non-essential ‘volunteers’ (*) assembled at the lifeboat, to actually getting the damn thing launched, (Olde Worlde Davits) to getting it into the sea and disconnected from the mother ship was well in excess of that time.
To be fair we did have a jammed davit just as we hit the water but even that didn’t really affect the situation.
It was one of those ‘exercises’ where you had to be ultra cautious as their were no second chances.

(*) Volunteer: Defined as someone who misunderstood the initial question [emoji2]

[JRG]

Back to the thread topic,   here is an article from CC that I found from 3 days ago about RCG.

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5578/

 

It validates some of what I was saying regarding future uses of Apps.   

 

 

[Cruzaholic41]

Cruise lines have been expanding the use of apps for years. That’s old news. But no matter how many times the word “app” is used in this thread, an “app” cannot take the place of what is perhaps the most important drill for a crew to practice. 

[sanger727]

18 minutes ago, JRG said:

Back to the thread topic,   here is an article from CC that I found from 3 days ago about RCG.

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5578/

 

It validates some of what I was saying regarding future uses of Apps.   

 

 

I like it. But I hope the features are available without having to log into the internet. I usually turn my data off during the cruise and don’t get a wifi package. On my last NCL cruise their app worked onboard (didn’t do much) via the intranet for free. Hopefully this will be the same.

[ColeThornton]

25 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I like it. But I hope the features are available without having to log into the internet. I usually turn my data off during the cruise and don’t get a wifi package. On my last NCL cruise their app worked onboard (didn’t do much) via the intranet for free. Hopefully this will be the same.

 

For us Luddites who still have flip phones the muster app thing would be problematic.

[sanger727]

52 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

 

For us Luddites who still have flip phones the muster app thing would be problematic.

 

I'm sure there will be a non-smart phone alternative. But I like the expedited boarding and room control features. Not sure about the room key since I don't always carry my phone with me. 

[JRG]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

I'm sure there will be a non-smart phone alternative. But I like the expedited boarding and room control features. Not sure about the room key since I don't always carry my phone with me. 

 

In five years,  they will be using face-recognition systems for everything from opening your door,  to recognizing where you are during an emergency from the ships camera system,   instantly locating all passengers and registering their presence at the lifeboats, or muster station. You may not need a key at all.    

 

If the casinos can use face recognition,  then the cruiselines could use it for contact-less cruising.   

 

Might as well move all casino operations over to the smartphone APP too so we can all play bingo or blackjack in the comfort of your own space.   Same for Texas Hold-em.

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

For us Luddites who still have flip phones the muster app thing would be problematic.

 

Based on what I have been learning about changes in cruising probable, I am thinking that a smartphone of some type will need to be in my future if I am going to cruise again.

[rkacruiser]

8 hours ago, MBP&O2/O said:

The “30 minute” conversation intrigues me.

 

And, now I am quite confused about what this "30 minutes" really means.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

And, now I am quite confused about what this "30 minutes" really means.

As I've said, it is what each device is designed to do.  Each lifeboat, each MES, or each life raft station is designed to be loaded with people standing at the station and launched within 30 minutes.  For a lifeboat, that can be from 150 to 350 people in today's boats.  For an MES, that can mean 500-600 people, and for a davit launched raft station that can mean 6 rafts at 25 people per raft.  Loaded and launched in 30 minutes.  Under ideal circumstances.  If, as 2/O says, the crew exercises extreme caution due to weather or other circumstances, then the 30 minutes may be exceeded.  No one tests equipment in howling gales.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

16 hours ago, JRG said:

In five years,  they will be using face-recognition systems for everything from opening your door,  to recognizing where you are during an emergency from the ships camera system, instantly locating all passengers and registering their presence at the lifeboats, or muster station. You may not need a key at all.   

 

a) I think the potential abuse of facial recognition system is enormous

b) as previously stated by someone, technology is great until it isn't or the power goes out.

Edited September 12, 2020 by scottca075

[JRG]

1 hour ago, scottca075 said:

a) I think the potential abuse of facial recognition system is enormous

 

Remember though that many of us use facial recognition to sign on to our smartphones right now....

 

over and out...

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by JRG

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 minutes ago, JRG said:

Remember though that many of us use facial recognition to sign on to our smartphones right now....

 

The potential abuse comes from others using facial recognition systems without your consent; stores, casinos, restaurants, bars, etc.

 

I think if I was walking down a grocery aisle and a voice said to me, "hey Scott Jones of 222 Main Street, Coronado CA, look, the Chocolate Doodles you love so much are on sale", it would creep me out beyond belief. Some might think it is wonderful. Some people think Alexa and Siri are their friends, I don't.

[Aquahound]

13 minutes ago, scottca075 said:

Some might think it is wonderful. Some people think Alexa and Siri are their friends, I don't.

 

Oh come on.  Can't you see how awesome it would be to play blackjack on our smartphones when we're supposed to be paying attention at muster?  I'll have a 4th beer please!  🤣😉  

[sanger727]

34 minutes ago, scottca075 said:

 

The potential abuse comes from others using facial recognition systems without your consent; stores, casinos, restaurants, bars, etc.

 

I think if I was walking down a grocery aisle and a voice said to me, "hey Scott Jones of 222 Main Street, Coronado CA, look, the Chocolate Doodles you love so much are on sale", it would creep me out beyond belief. Some might think it is wonderful. Some people think Alexa and Siri are their friends, I don't.

facial recognition systems being used on you without your consent is already occurring. Not much you can do about it. You don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place. While it’s not to the point of marketed advertisements in stores it wouldn’t surprise me if that was the future. I can go to the website of an exercise bike I was looking for and I’m still getting ads from that company suddenly popping up on my cruisecritic Or Facebook page

[ontheweb]

So, here's a question I have not seen asked. In what manner did the recent cruises in Italy by MSC muster? Did the do the muster in the way we are all used to, or did they do it some other way? If it was in the usual manner, was it significantly less packed with reduced capacity?

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

a) facial recognition systems being used on you without your consent is already occurring. Not much you can do about it.

 

b) You don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place.

 

c)While it’s not to the point of marketed advertisements in stores it wouldn’t surprise me if that was the future. I can go to the website of an exercise bike I was looking for and I’m still getting ads from that company suddenly popping up on my cruisecritic Or Facebook page

 

a) Of course there is. We can demand of lawmakers that they pass laws on its use and disclosure when we enter a business it is being used.

b) Your expectation can be that a business/government cannot collect and use your information. You don't give up 4th and 5th Amendment rights when you leave your house.

c) For CruiseCritic you can surf anonymously. Facebook you are on your own trusting them with your information.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

So, here's a question I have not seen asked. In what manner did the recent cruises in Italy by MSC muster? Did the do the muster in the way we are all used to, or did they do it some other way? If it was in the usual manner, was it significantly less packed with reduced capacity?

 

Stop trying to stay on topic while we all wander off into the weeds!! 🤣

[sanger727]

20 minutes ago, scottca075 said:

 

a) Of course there is. We can demand of lawmakers that they pass laws on its use and disclosure when we enter a business it is being used.

b) Your expectation can be that a business/government cannot collect and use your information. You don't give up 4th and 5th Amendment rights when you leave your house.

c) For CruiseCritic you can surf anonymously. Facebook you are on your own trusting them with your information.

the information being discussed is your face. Yes, they can collect and store images of your face on video that they capture on their property. They can’t use it promotional materials without your permission. But every business you have been in in the last 10 years has stored images of your face on their video. Very few use facial recognition because it’s very difficult to develop this software. But as it gets better in the future you will see it more and more.

[Heidi13]

On 9/11/2020 at 3:08 AM, chengkp75 said:

Our ships at NCL had an officer position of "Firefighter", who was typically a land based fireman, or in the US a "smoke jumper" forestry firefighter, and whose job it was to train the fire teams onboard, maintain the firefighting equipment, and to lead the primary attack team in a fire scenario.  As I said, nearly all of them were experienced land firefighters, and we got into some heated arguments over firefighting techniques, since one of the basic cores of land firefighting is to get everyone "out of the building", while at sea, you can't "leave the building", the ship is your universe.

 

We also had frequent liaison meetings with Honolulu firefighters to discuss joint operations in case of a fire in port.  They were amazed at the amount of equipment, and the size of the equipment that we had onboard.  The ship, as all ships do, has an "international shore connection" so that shore fire companies can connect their hoses to the ship's firemain system.  On cruise ships, these connections have a "backflow preventer" on them, so that if the shore firemen shut off their supply, the ship's supply will not flow back to the city, but stay on the ship.  When the HFD saw how large our  fire pumps were (we have 3), they knew that as long as the ship maintained power, the ship's pumps would overpower the shore engines, and they could not supply any water to the ship, so that their main contribution would be to provide boundary cooling from the pier. 

 

My first fire-fighting course in Canada was led by a shore based fireman. We were using the traditional multi-level steel box and he was talking about using a chain saw to cut holes in the deckhead to vent smoke, gases, etc. I commented you have to be joking, on ships we secure the area, we don't cut holes in the steel or leave FS Doors open. As you may have guessed, the remainder of the course went downhill. Sad when the participants know more than the instructor.

 

However, my first course was in UK and it was also taught by shore-based firemen, but they were excellent, teaching only marine techniques. Still remember their intro and pass/fail explanation. If you were alive after the 4-days you passed, they didn't need to describe the failure criteria. They also mentioned we have 4 days to learn what they cover in a couple of years. Just a little intense.

 

At our home port, the local fire department were very reluctant to come aboard the vessel. Only if led by a member of the crew and using their own hoses, would they enter the ship.