Rethinking Muster Drills

[chengkp75]

There are crew assigned to provide "supplies" to muster stations, as needed.  This is activated by the time at muster, and conditions at the time.  These will mostly consist of blankets from housekeeping, and bottled water and snacks from provisions.  Robes and slippers, not so much.

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

My point from the beginning has been that I think professionals overestimate the ability of the average cruiser to handle an emergency in the appropriate manner based on one 10 minute muster drill.

 

Actually, it's just the opposite, which is why regular drills are so important for the crew.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

17 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

At the end of the Drill, I "hung around" waiting for the multitude to depart the area as I normally do.  I then noticed on the deck, near the railing of the Muster Station, a box.  It was labeled "Crowd Control".  I wonder still today:  what was in that box that the crew might have used for "crowd control" if such was needed.  

 

When I worked for Disney the box would have been labeled "Guest Control" and would have contained the supplies we needed for a crowded event like a parade or fireworks; things like rope, flashlights, signs, etc.

 

Given it was a Carnival cruise, their supplies for crown control were probably 6 packs of Bud Light and bottles of Jose Cuervo....

[sanger727]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

There are crew assigned to provide "supplies" to muster stations, as needed.  This is activated by the time at muster, and conditions at the time.  These will mostly consist of blankets from housekeeping, and bottled water and snacks from provisions.  Robes and slippers, not so much.

 

Same point. Something to keep warm with. So someone showing up in bed clothes without a jacket should be fine then. 

 

The robes and slippers were simply an example of something that is potentially readily available that could be used to keep warm. Blankets as well but they are a bit more cumbersome due to their size. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by sanger727

[ColeThornton]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

There are crew assigned to provide "supplies" to muster stations, as needed.  This is activated by the time at muster, and conditions at the time.  These will mostly consist of blankets from housekeeping, and bottled water and snacks from provisions.  Robes and slippers, not so much.

 

Too bad.  Robes and slippers would be a nice touch.  I would also like the steward to put a mint on my lifeboat seat.

[JRG]

On 8/26/2020 at 8:33 AM, chengkp75 said:

As far as learning anything at drill, while it is a failure of the cruise line, and ship's leadership to allow distractions during drill, there really is nothing you need to learn at a passenger muster drill, other than Show up and Shut up.

 

Ok,  the bolding here is definitely not mine but the point being made is that there is nothing to be learrned,  according to this post. 

 

I respectfully disagree because we do attend immediately there usually is something new to be learned.   

 

 

 

 

[JRG]

I also think the future capabilites of smartphone apps will assist seniors and those with ambulatory or mobility issues in the case of an emergency.

 

For example,  in the case of emergency the smartphone lights up and directs the passenger or caretaker to best route per ships instructions,  which includes interfacing to the ships emergency managements systems for alternate paths due to emergency conditions.   

 

This is just one of many possibilities I could muster up if I really sat down and brainstormed.

[chengkp75]

37 minutes ago, JRG said:

I also think the future capabilites of smartphone apps will assist seniors and those with ambulatory or mobility issues in the case of an emergency.

 

For example,  in the case of emergency the smartphone lights up and directs the passenger or caretaker to best route per ships instructions,  which includes interfacing to the ships emergency managements systems for alternate paths due to emergency conditions.   

 

This is just one of many possibilities I could muster up if I really sat down and brainstormed.

Fine and dandy to put out information on smart phones, but to remove the "all at once" muster is not an improvement except from a customer comfort standpoint, and most likely will lead to less customer safety.

 

So, let's see.  There is a fire in zone 3, deck 7.  When the On Scene Commander determines, with the Captain, that the emergency has reached the point where the passengers need to be mustered, someone on the bridge needs to enter the fire zone and deck into a program that will determine from any cabin what the "best" route from wherever the phone is located (not sure how this would be tracked) to the muster station linked to that smartphone.  Sounds like a lot of programming that would need to be done, when there are crew designated to assist those with mobility issues to their stations.  Not sure what "emergency management systems" exist that show alternative routing, or really any information.  Due to the unique nature of each emergency, it is found that sometimes "old school" use of laminated ship's plans and dry erase markers work best for "emergency management".

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, scottca075 said:

When I worked for Disney the box would have been labeled "Guest Control" and would have contained the supplies we needed for a crowded event like a parade or fireworks; things like rope, flashlights, signs, etc.

 

Thanks for your reply.  That sounds better than what I have imagined for quite awhile.

 

2 hours ago, scottca075 said:

Given it was a Carnival cruise, their supplies for crown control were probably 6 packs of Bud Light and bottles of Jose Cuervo....

 

LOL!  What no New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc?  The Boat Commander will need to call Security to "control" this guest!  😁

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

I also think the future capabilites of smartphone apps will assist seniors and those with ambulatory or mobility issues in the case of an emergency.

 

For example,  in the case of emergency the smartphone lights up and directs the passenger or caretaker to best route per ships instructions,  which includes interfacing to the ships emergency managements systems for alternate paths due to emergency conditions.   

 

35 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Sounds like a lot of programming that would need to be done, when there are crew designated to assist those with mobility issues to their stations.  Not sure what "emergency management systems" exist that show alternative routing, or really any information.  Due to the unique nature of each emergency, it is found that sometimes "old school" use of laminated ship's plans and dry erase markers work best for "emergency management".

 

I'm no techie, but is the ship even able to triangulate a person's device to determine their exact location in order to provide step-by-step directions to an assembly station?  And if so, is the bandwidth enough to be able to support thousands of devices connected at the same time?  Based on my wifi experiences, I think I know the answer to the second one.

 

Either way, for the same reason paper charts are still kept on the bridge, electronic means should never be totally relied upon.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Aquahound

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Same point. Something to keep warm with. So someone showing up in bed clothes without a jacket should be fine then. 

 

The robes and slippers were simply an example of something that is potentially readily available that could be used to keep warm. Blankets as well but they are a bit more cumbersome due to their size. 

 

You really need to read a book concerning the Prinsendam I disaster, as I have previously posted. 

 

Even with a blanket wrapped around you as best as you can keep it in place, how warm are you really going to be sitting in a lifeboat in the Gulf of Alaska during October with rough seas and sea water splashing over the sides of the lifeboat from time to time?   And, your time in that lifeboat is measured in hours, not minutes.

 

If you would like some suggestions as to books to read, I'd be pleased to offer some suggestions.   

[rkacruiser]

2 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

Either way, for the same reason paper charts are still kept on the bridge, electronic means should never be totally relied upon.

 

Exactly.  What if the ship's electrical system failed during the emergency?  Then, the alternate electrical generator failed?  The ship will have batteries that can still function for awhile.  

 

Old cliche:  plan for the worst, but hope for the best.

[rkacruiser]

8 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Right, so why would I stop and open my safe and pack a bag with my documents, valuables, and medicines. I should get my  butt to my muster station. 

 

You are not going to be permitted to have a "bag" when entering a lifeboat.  "Bags" take up room that is required for your fellow guests.  What one takes from their stateroom at such a time needs to fit within their pockets of whatever they are wearing.  How long does it take for such to be accomplished?  (And, I take travel sized bottles of several medicines that I require.)

[rkacruiser]

One of the interesting stories I read about the Prinsendam I tragedy were several guests who had to leave the ship without medicines that "had to be taken daily in order to stay alive".  All who were in that category went at least 24 hours or longer without their medicine.  None were lost.  One gentleman, when interviewed, mentioned that his doctor and he was going to have a conversation about "is this medicine really needed by me" when he got home.  

[Joebucks]

On 8/26/2020 at 11:33 AM, chengkp75 said:

Let's say your company or the building it is in requires periodic fire drills.  Which do you think is more effective in training people how to react in an emergency:

 

Scenario 1:  you are sent an email, and told where everyone is to meet outside the building and when you get a chance, wander out there and see where it is.

 

Scenario 2:  the fire alarm rings, you are told it is a drill, and everyone in the company or building heads to the exits at once and then outside to the assembly area.

 

Then, the next week there is a real fire.  As any first responder or military person will tell you:  "train like it is the real deal".

 

As far as learning anything at drill, while it is a failure of the cruise line, and ship's leadership to allow distractions during drill, there really is nothing you need to learn at a passenger muster drill, other than Show up and Shut up.

 

This new format removes any crowd management training for the crew, and will lead to delays as guests who have not checked into their muster stations are culled from the milling horde of the rest of the passengers who are going about their cruise, having already checked in.  The thing to note in the press release that RCI issued about this is that passenger safety is mentioned once or twice, while the passengers' "uninterrupted vacation" is repeated several times.  Where do you think the emphasis for this format of "drill" is located?

 

This is not even close to what I was advocating. Here is a more accurate depiction of what I was saying:

 

Scenario 1: You are paged to an area. You then listen to an announcement. You may or may not understand what is being said. No one confirms your knowledge of the info.

 

Scenario 2: You are required to complete a certification that you cannot pass until you have achieved a specific score. It informs you want to expect, who to bring, what to bring, things to know, etc.At the end of this test, you must physically check in with that station.

 

I have managed people for enough years to know without a doubt that neither scenario prepares the average person enough for a true panic. People do not listen. Even less so if there are too many distractions around or if there is no assessment.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

  Due to the unique nature of each emergency, it is found that sometimes "old school" use of laminated ship's plans and dry erase markers work best for "emergency management".

 

That was my go to system. Laminated plans stowed in the deckhead that swung down as needed. Can write notes, location of attack teams, boundary teams, check for cable runs, etc. Way better than a TV monitor, that really don't accept dry erase markers too well.😀

 

Power failures..... no worries, just drop the laminated plans.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

Either way, for the same reason paper charts are still kept on the bridge, electronic means should never be totally relied upon.

 

So true, to go almost paperless the ship must have at least 2 separate type approved ECDIS systems with separate power supplies.

 

Having jumped through way to many hoops getting Flag/Class equipment approvals, I just can't imagine how they could even contemplate approving pax electronic devices to integrate with the ship's emergency management system. In addition to compatibility issues, bandwidth, etc, you also have signal strength, especially when the wifi signal repeaters shut down when the power goes out. Those of us that have used radios on cruise ships before the advent of repeater systems know how in-effective signal propogation is through steel bulkheads and decks.

 

When the lights go out and the ship is listing, personally I'll be happily re-assured that the crew stairway guides are in place and directing me to an Assembly Station via a safe route.

 

Even if I had a smartphone, which I don't, I certainly wouldn't rely on it in an emergency.

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

When the lights go out and the ship is listing, personally I'll be happily re-assured that the crew stairway guides are in place and directing me to an Assembly Station via a safe route.

 

Even if I had a smartphone, which I don't, I certainly wouldn't rely on it in an emergency.

 

I agree so much!

[MBP&O2/O]

 

Exactly.  What if the ship's electrical system failed during the emergency?  Then, the alternate electrical generator failed?  The ship will have batteries that can still function for awhile.  

 

Old cliche:  plan for the worst, but hope for the best.

Our water ingress was so fast the water level rose above the ER plates within minutes and we lost all power within 60 minutes of the start of the emergency. That means everything. Main engines, electricity, emergency generators etc etc.

[MBP&O2/O]

 
You really need to read a book concerning the Prinsendam I disaster, as I have previously posted. 
 
Even with a blanket wrapped around you as best as you can keep it in place, how warm are you really going to be sitting in a lifeboat in the Gulf of Alaska during October with rough seas and sea water splashing over the sides of the lifeboat from time to time?   And, your time in that lifeboat is measured in hours, not minutes.
 
If you would like some suggestions as to books to read, I'd be pleased to offer some suggestions.   

We managed the better part of six hours in the (open) boat. For last four the boat was full of water during we were sat up to our **** in cold sea water. That was January in the North Pacific.
The secondary issue was wind chill. When your clothes are soaked through and there is a gusting force seven wind it got somewhat ‘parky’ 🥶


Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Heidi13]

11 hours ago, MBP&O2/O said:

Our water ingress was so fast the water level rose above the ER plates within minutes and we lost all power within 60 minutes of the start of the emergency. That means everything. Main engines, electricity, emergency generators etc etc.

 

We lost a ship locally in 2006, when it hit an island. Opened the hull iwo the E/R and pulled a shaft out. The main power was out after only a few minutes and the ship sank in 1hr 20 mins.

 

Very shortly after the impact, the vessel only had emergency lights and was already listing.

[navybankerteacher]

On 8/27/2020 at 4:16 PM, rkacruiser said:

One of the interesting stories I read about the Prinsendam I tragedy were several guests who had to leave the ship without medicines that "had to be taken daily in order to stay alive".  All who were in that category went at least 24 hours or longer without their medicine.  None were lost.  One gentleman, when interviewed, mentioned that his doctor and he was going to have a conversation about "is this medicine really needed by me" when he got home.  

There are very few (if any) medicines which must be “...taken daily in order to stay alive”.

Even if there were, a person who’s toehold on this planet was that tenuous would most likely be directed by his doctor to stay home.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

On 8/28/2020 at 11:27 AM, Heidi13 said:

We lost a ship locally in 2006, when it hit an island. Opened the hull iwo the E/R and pulled a shaft out. The main power was out after only a few minutes and the ship sank in 1hr 20 mins.

 

Completely off topic, but the Lusitania sank in 18 minutes. It is a miracle 751 survived.

[GUT2407]

10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

There are very few (if any) medicines which must be “...taken daily in order to stay alive”.

Even if there were, a person who’s toehold on this planet was that tenuous would most likely be directed by his doctor to stay home.

Not totally sure about a doctor directing him to stay at home, or even his power to compel him to do so. As for drugs needed every day, there are a few, you won’t 100% die, but a pretty big chance HIV drugs are one that missing a dose can be serious.

Edited August 30, 2020 by GUT2407

[Essiesmom]

For a type 1 diabetic, insulin might fit into that category...EM