Rethinking Muster Drills

[rkacruiser]

7 hours ago, dsrdsrdsr said:

I hadn't thought of nighttime emergencies.

 

Consider the Prinsendam I tragedy.  Guests were called not even to their Muster Stations initially because of the fire.  They were called to assemble in other public rooms that were away from the fire. Some were dressed appropriately for evacuation; many were not--still in their nightclothes and with no life jackets.  It became impossible for the guests to safely return to their staterooms to retrieve life jackets, get properly dressed, or obtain needed medicine, documents, valuables, whatever.  

 

The moral of that story--in my opinion--is that if one is on a ship and one is required to report to one's Muster Station, take with you all the is required including your life jacket.  Don't expect to be able to return to your cabin because "I forgot something".  

 

I repeat from a prior post:  for a ship to not have life jackets sufficient for the occupants within that stateroom stored in that stateroom is a practice that I find difficult to understand why the USCG would approve.  

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

I repeat from a prior post:  for a ship to not have life jackets sufficient for the occupants within that stateroom stored in that stateroom is a practice that I find difficult to understand why the USCG would approve. 

The USCG really has no say in this.  Yes, the USCG inspects foreign flag cruise ships, as they inspect all foreign flag ships entering the US (well, they don't inspect them all, but they could if they had the budget), but it is only to ensure that SOLAS requirements are met.  When an IMO member nation ratifies a convention like SOLAS, the nation is required to put into law legislation that echoes the terms of the convention, and gives the nation the authority to inspect other nations' ships to see that the convention is being followed on those ships, through the concept of "Port State Control".  The IMO conventions also give the member nations the right to impose stricter standards on vessels of that nation's flag, but cannot impose those standards on any other nations' vessels.  So, if the IMO, through SOLAS says it is okay to not have lifejackets in the passenger cabins, then the USCG must abide by that, at least for non-US flag vessels.

[sanger727]

10 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Consider the Prinsendam I tragedy.  Guests were called not even to their Muster Stations initially because of the fire.  They were called to assemble in other public rooms that were away from the fire. Some were dressed appropriately for evacuation; many were not--still in their nightclothes and with no life jackets.  It became impossible for the guests to safely return to their staterooms to retrieve life jackets, get properly dressed, or obtain needed medicine, documents, valuables, whatever.  

 

The moral of that story--in my opinion--is that if one is on a ship and one is required to report to one's Muster Station, take with you all the is required including your life jacket.  Don't expect to be able to return to your cabin because "I forgot something".  

 

I repeat from a prior post:  for a ship to not have life jackets sufficient for the occupants within that stateroom stored in that stateroom is a practice that I find difficult to understand why the USCG would approve.  

 

When they call for a muster - how exactly are you supposed to know the urgency. A muster sounds like an urgent situation, kind of like a fire drill. Get up and hit the door. I wouldn't think to change and pack a bag with documents/medicines/valuables/etc. Especially if woken up out of a sound sleep. How do I know that the fire isn't in the cabin next to mine and those extra few minutes could be the difference between life and death. 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

When they call for a muster - how exactly are you supposed to know the urgency. A muster sounds like an urgent situation, kind of like a fire drill. Get up and hit the door. I wouldn't think to change and pack a bag with documents/medicines/valuables/etc. Especially if woken up out of a sound sleep. How do I know that the fire isn't in the cabin next to mine and those extra few minutes could be the difference between life and death. 

My recollection is that you are advised to dress warmly and bring any meds with you when called for an emergency muster - either at the drill, or in information otherwise made available.

[Joebucks]

20 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

Yeah.

 

Don't change a thing. I think the mass drill is important to get people introduced to what it is like when 3-5 thousand people are moving all at one time.

 

I highly disagree. Aside from physically checking into their muster station (which should stay), the average person is learning absolutely nothing from the drill. A required course on the phone app, online before check in, kiosk, or even just on their TV, anything would put the average person in a much better position. I would put big money on that.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

11 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

I highly disagree. the average person is learning absolutely nothing from the drill.

 

And how did you come to this knowledge about the average person?

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, scottca075 said:

 

And how did you come to this knowledge about the average person?

Or about how the average person reacts in an emergency?

[Joebucks]

7 minutes ago, scottca075 said:

 

And how did you come to this knowledge about the average person?

 

Apparently, you have never been to a muster drill. I have never been to one without a bunch of people around me saying they can't hear what is being said, being on their phone, talking to other people, or just zoning out, thinking about the trip. I guess my question for you, is what do you think the average person is learning?

 

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Or about how the average person reacts in an emergency?

 

Do you believe the muster drill is an example of how they would react? Do you also believe the current process is the BEST way we can prepare them and prevent panic?

 

Maybe I'm crazy. If say make everyone take a course before they board the ship, outlining the process, things to know, and then making them check in once they board the ship, that it is somehow less effective than this current process. I don't believe it is farfetched to say that there could be less panic if we had a better training.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

17 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

Apparently, you have never been to a muster drill. I have never been to one without a bunch of people around me saying they can't hear what is being said, being on their phone, talking to other people, or just zoning out, thinking about the trip. I guess my question for you, is what do you think the average person is learning?

 

So I do notice you didn't answer my question. How do you know what the average person does or does not learn during muster drill? They at least know where it is for sure.

I think they learn where their muster station and what it is like to move about the ship with everyone on board moving simultaneously.

 

I've been to dozens of muster drills and I complain about them like all people who've had to do them over and over, but the notion that a required course on the phone app (not everyone has smartphones), online (or has a computer and can use it) before check in, kiosk, or even just on their TV would put the average person in a much better position is quaint and maybe weird. How does watching the muster drill on TV help you know where your muster station is in real terms? How many veteran travelers watch the TV demo on the airplane?

[chengkp75]

19 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

Apparently, you have never been to a muster drill. I have never been to one without a bunch of people around me saying they can't hear what is being said, being on their phone, talking to other people, or just zoning out, thinking about the trip. I guess my question for you, is what do you think the average person is learning?

 

 

Do you believe the muster drill is an example of how they would react? Do you also believe the current process is the BEST way we can prepare them and prevent panic?

 

Maybe I'm crazy. If say make everyone take a course before they board the ship, outlining the process, things to know, and then making them check in once they board the ship, that it is somehow less effective than this current process. I don't believe it is farfetched to say that there could be less panic if we had a better training.

Let's say your company or the building it is in requires periodic fire drills.  Which do you think is more effective in training people how to react in an emergency:

 

Scenario 1:  you are sent an email, and told where everyone is to meet outside the building and when you get a chance, wander out there and see where it is.

 

Scenario 2:  the fire alarm rings, you are told it is a drill, and everyone in the company or building heads to the exits at once and then outside to the assembly area.

 

Then, the next week there is a real fire.  As any first responder or military person will tell you:  "train like it is the real deal".

 

As far as learning anything at drill, while it is a failure of the cruise line, and ship's leadership to allow distractions during drill, there really is nothing you need to learn at a passenger muster drill, other than Show up and Shut up.

 

This new format removes any crowd management training for the crew, and will lead to delays as guests who have not checked into their muster stations are culled from the milling horde of the rest of the passengers who are going about their cruise, having already checked in.  The thing to note in the press release that RCI issued about this is that passenger safety is mentioned once or twice, while the passengers' "uninterrupted vacation" is repeated several times.  Where do you think the emphasis for this format of "drill" is located?

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

 

I highly disagree. Aside from physically checking into their muster station (which should stay), the average person is learning absolutely nothing from the drill. A required course on the phone app, online before check in, kiosk, or even just on their TV, anything would put the average person in a much better position. I would put big money on that.

As @chengkp75 has said several times the drill is for the crew. How does your listening to the tv or viewing an app help the crew in knowing how to react to an emergency?

[JRG]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

As @chengkp75 has said several times the drill is for the crew.

 

But Covid 19 changed everything and now a ship officer would endanger the PAX.    Not to mention get in trouble.

 

 

Its a case of lesser of two evils.    Keep it the old way and increase odds of infection and endanger all PAX and Crew;

 

...Or  roll with the changes into a safer cruisiing experience with the newer muster guidelines.

 

Choose wisely.

Edited August 26, 2020 by JRG

[rkacruiser]

7 hours ago, sanger727 said:

When they call for a muster - how exactly are you supposed to know the urgency.

 

A guest does not immediately know the urgency.  One ought to assume that if an unannounced Call to Muster Stations is taking place, there must be a darn good reason why the Officers on the Bridge are doing so.

 

6 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

My recollection is that you are advised to dress warmly and bring any meds with you when called for an emergency muster - either at the drill, or in information otherwise made available.

 

Absolutely.  I have heard that advice at every Muster Drill on every ship on which I have sailed.

 

18 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

Consider the Prinsendam I tragedy.  Guests were called not even to their Muster Stations initially because of the fire.  They were called to assemble in other public rooms that were away from the fire. Some were dressed appropriately for evacuation; many were not--still in their nightclothes and with no life jackets.  It became impossible for the guests to safely return to their staterooms to retrieve life jackets, get properly dressed, or obtain needed medicine, documents, valuables, whatever.  

 

One ought to do some reading about this event.  Some of the guests did take the few minutes to properly dress and prepare themselves.  It's surprising to learn that so many did not.  Some even arriving at where they assembled in bare feet and flimsy nightware.  These folks sent many hours in open lifeboats during inclement weather during an October in the Gulf of Alaska when the seas are not noted for being "pacific".  The Prinsendam's crew, including the cruise staff and entertainers, did the best they could to care for their guests under such circumstances.  I think it was a miracle that none were lost because of that tragedy.   

[cruznjan]

On 5/23/2020 at 11:05 AM, Roz said:

Where are these indoor muster stations?  I've only had outdoor stations on HAL and Carnival.  The one indoor station was on Princess.  

On a Carnival ship I was on my way to the muster station with my cane. I was escorted to a lounge, where the information was shared.

[rkacruiser]

One of the most interesting Muster Drills that I have attended was on a Carnival ship.  I think it was Carnival Freedom because it was my first one.  We assembled on the deck near the lifeboats and went through the drill.  Thought it was well done and the guests at my Muster Station kept their mouths shut and listened.  (That impressed me because of the "Fun Ship" reputation of Carnival and this was a Spring Break cruise.)

 

At the end of the Drill, I "hung around" waiting for the multitude to depart the area as I normally do.  I then noticed on the deck, near the railing of the Muster Station, a box.  It was labeled "Crowd Control".  I wonder still today:  what was in that box that the crew might have used for "crowd control" if such was needed.  

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

One of the most interesting Muster Drills that I have attended was on a Carnival ship.  I think it was Carnival Freedom because it was my first one.  We assembled on the deck near the lifeboats and went through the drill.  Thought it was well done and the guests at my Muster Station kept their mouths shut and listened.  (That impressed me because of the "Fun Ship" reputation of Carnival and this was a Spring Break cruise.)

 

At the end of the Drill, I "hung around" waiting for the multitude to depart the area as I normally do.  I then noticed on the deck, near the railing of the Muster Station, a box.  It was labeled "Crowd Control".  I wonder still today:  what was in that box that the crew might have used for "crowd control" if such was needed.  

That's where the vests they wear go.

[rkacruiser]

35 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

That's where the vests they wear go.

 

Then, why was it labeled "crowd control"?  The crew at the Muster Station were wearing their "hats" and their life vests.  

[ontheweb]

7 hours ago, JRG said:

 

But Covid 19 changed everything and now a ship officer would endanger the PAX.    Not to mention get in trouble.

 

 

Its a case of lesser of two evils.    Keep it the old way and increase odds of infection and endanger all PAX and Crew;

 

...Or  roll with the changes into a safer cruisiing experience with the newer muster guidelines.

 

Choose wisely.

Why do schools and businesses have fire drills? Answer because practice helps. But you think the crew not being able to practice getting the passengers all together (the real reason behind the drill) will make us all safer????

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Then, why was it labeled "crowd control"?  The crew at the Muster Station were wearing their "hats" and their life vests.  

Most crew doing musters and some direction in passageways wear high visibility vests, in my experience, but maybe the "hats" are what Carnival used at the time.  It was most likely where those "hats" were stored, along with the clipboards or whatever they use to check in people.  It wasn't tasers and night sticks.

Edited August 27, 2020 by chengkp75

[sanger727]

15 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

A guest does not immediately know the urgency.  One ought to assume that if an unannounced Call to Muster Stations is taking place, there must be a darn good reason why the Officers on the Bridge are doing so.

 

 

 

 

Right, so why would I stop and open my safe and pack a bag with my documents, valuables, and medicines. I should get my  butt to my muster station. 

[chengkp75]

54 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

Right, so why would I stop and open my safe and pack a bag with my documents, valuables, and medicines. I should get my  butt to my muster station. 

Why?  Prudence.  Even we professional mariners are told to ensure we have adequate clothing when responding to emergency signals.  You never know what the nature of the emergency is, or how long you will be either at your muster station or in a semi-enclosed lifeboat.  Since a passenger will have no emergency duties, where a small (or in some cases a large) pack of medications would interfere with those duties, and who generally have more medical conditions requiring medication than mariners, it again is prudence to have these ready to go at all times, and bring them with you to muster.  As for identification, if the worst happens, it is always good to have some form of ID on you.  Valuables are a different story, but as I've said up thread, we would always bring the overtime sheet to ensure we got paid.

[ontheweb]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 we would always bring the overtime sheet to ensure we got paid.

I guess we now know your priorities.🤣

[MBP&O2/O]

My trip in the lifeboat ended in disaster in that it (the lifeboat) sank. The intention was to deliver non-essential crew to the ‘rescue ship’, return and collect some more ... but alas [emoji57]
The moral of this is that when on the lifeboat I had no ID as I didn’t need it, so when we arrived in Japan, all sorts of problems occurred as I had no ID. Equally, trying to get home from Japan without passports caused a stir [emoji57]

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Right, so why would I stop and open my safe and pack a bag with my documents, valuables, and medicines. I should get my  butt to my muster station. 

If you stop to think, there is a middle ground between an instantaneous panicky mad dash and an intelligent evacuation.  In an emergency everyone needs to define his “valuables”.

 

 You are advised in advance that, in the event, you should bring your meds, warm clothing and important documents.  You probably will not want to spend time to look under the bed for that left “valuable” Bruno Magli driving loafer, so you should settle for the first pair of shoes you see.  Your passport, yes (unless you cannot easily locate it without turning the whole cabin upside down) - your collection of “important” menus stolen from the MDR, not so much.

 

Someone who is unable to make such decisions should probably not travel.

Edited August 27, 2020 by navybankerteacher

[sanger727]

23 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

If you stop to think, there is a middle ground between an instantaneous panicky mad dash and an intelligent evacuation.  In an emergency everyone needs to define his “valuables”.

 

 You are advised in advance that, in the event, you should bring your meds, warm clothing and important documents.  You probably will not want to spend time to look under the bed for that left “valuable” Bruno Magli driving loafer, so you should settle for the first pair of shoes you see.  Your passport, yes (unless you cannot easily locate it without turning the whole cabin upside down) - your collection of “important” menus stolen from the MDR, not so much.

 

Someone who is unable to make such decisions should probably not travel.

 

I understand what you are saying. My point from the beginning has been that I think professionals overestimate the ability of the average cruiser to handle an emergency in the appropriate manner based on one 10 minute muster drill. If there was an issue where many people showed up at a muster without the appropriate clothing and items it is further evidence of this. I don't find it surprising, or frankly inappropriate, for people who are woken up by an alarm in the middle of the night to roll out of bed and respond straight to their muster station. The fact that people on this forum are surprised by this reaction only shows me how out of touch they are with who your average cruiser is. I would expect this reaction to be anticipated (because it is to be expected) and could easily be prepared for by storing robes/blankets/slippers near muster stations. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by sanger727