Rethinking Muster Drills

[2wheelin]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

. But every business you have been in in the last 10 years has stored images of your face on their video.

Fact check please.

[sanger727]

34 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

Fact check please.

next time you go into a store, look up. The cameras are in plain sight.

[rkacruiser]

3 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

next time you go into a store, look up. The cameras are in plain sight.

 

Does that mean that those images are stored forever and forever and forever?  

 

I understand that such facial images are stored for a particular cruise.  When we re-enter a ship after being ashore, our image appears on the computer screen of the Security Officer on duty.  But, in what might be the chaos of attending a Muster Drill or who is entering a life saving craft of whatever type, is such practical?

Edited September 12, 2020 by rkacruiser

[ldubs]

Gosh, my face has changed a lot in 10 years.  I hope they still recognize it is me.  

 

 

[Heidi13]

On 9/11/2020 at 2:20 AM, sanger727 said:

i understand this. I may not have phrased my response to the prior poster well. Trying to operate within the parameters of his scenario with the fire, smoke, listing, and 30 minutes (I realize that isn’t the timeline to evacuate the ship, but that was the posters scenario ). What I was trying to say was that if the ship HAS to be empty at 1900, there should not be passengers in a muster station where they can’t breathe or see due to smoke because of an encroaching fire at 1830.

 

As the Chief has explained, the Master is not working to a deadline, if he/she decides to initiate abandon ship. Each individual device must be capable of achieving the stated capacity, in a controlled environment, within 30 minutes. Their is no metric for abandoning the entire ship, due to the number of potential variables. The only metric we used is do it safely.

 

If a fire was encroaching one of the Assembly Stations, the passengers would be moved well in advance of smoke infiltrating the Assembly Station. You should be aware that Assembly Stations have structural fire protection, which is most likely rated A-60. This standard requires that no smoke or flame enters the space for at least an hour and the bulkhead is insulated, so the bulkhead temperature increases less than 140 C over an hour (this is from memory, so it is possible standards have changed since I retired).

 

Yes, pax will be moved to a safer area, but also to free up space for the boundary cooling team, which would be setting up and cooling the bulkhead.

 

The Master will endeavour to keep the entire compliment on board the ship for as long as possible. Only when the risk of remaining aboard exceeds the risk of utilising the survival craft, will the Master issue the "Abandon Sip" order. This has no signal and can only be given by the Master.

 

Once issued, as the Chief has explained a few times, no clock starts and the ship does not have a deadline to achieve. When evacuating a ship, the goal is to do it safely and in a timely and orderly manner. Anyone who has lowered lifeboats, FRC's or D/L rafts into the water in a seaway knows that it challenging to launch 2 adjacent boats at the same time. The Master may also have to adjust the ship's head to provide a lee. Another challenge with a dead ship, could be the ship setting down on boats on the lee side, making it somewhat challenging and time consuming getting them away from the ship.

 

For all these reasons and many others, it would be impossible to load and launch over a dozen boats from a dead ship in 30 mins. As the Chief advised, 30 mins is a performance metric for each type of survival craft, usually tested in good weather, with the ship upright and secured to the shore.

 

Hopefully this will dispel the myth that an entire ship must be evacuated under any conditions within 30 mins. On the Viking Sky, I believe they got about 1/2 the 930 pax off by helo in 10 to 12 hrs. 

[2wheelin]

Let me see. Just say an average business has 500 customers a day—that number is probably small but for the sake of this demo we will include all the mom and pop establishments and one barber barber shops since the poster said every business. That would be over 1.8 million images each in ten years. Methinks there was a bit of exaggeration on the posters part. Even those that do have video, record over after a very short time.

 

[rkacruiser]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

for a davit launched raft station that can mean 6 rafts at 25 people per raft.  Loaded and launched in 30 minutes.  

 

I have wondered about that.  It seems trying to do within such a time span would be most difficult to accomplish.

 

I have observed on several ships canisters of these rafts stored on deck not near a derrick or davit.  How can these be used?  How do they--if they truly are required--fit into this "30 minute" scenario?  

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, ontheweb said:

So, here's a question I have not seen asked. In what manner did the recent cruises in Italy by MSC muster? Did the do the muster in the way we are all used to, or did they do it some other way? If it was in the usual manner, was it significantly less packed with reduced capacity?

 

 

There has been no mention of this that I have read and I think your question is very valid.  

[sanger727]

13 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Does that mean that those images are stored forever and forever and forever?  

 

I understand that such facial images are stored for a particular cruise.  When we re-enter a ship after being ashore, our image appears on the computer screen of the Security Officer on duty.  But, in what might be the chaos of attending a Muster Drill or who is entering a life saving craft of whatever type, is such practical?

I never said that those images were stored for 10 years. For the last 10 years almost every store has had security video. Those videos are stored for a period of time that is convenient for the store. So the claim that you have rights protecting your face from a store from capturing is ridiculous. Do they hold onto some images? Yes. Do they hold onto most? No. I did say that very few businesses use facial recognition, not claiming that that is an issue today. Just that it will probably be in the future.

[sanger727]

6 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

As the Chief has explained, the Master is not working to a deadline, if he/she decides to initiate abandon ship. Each individual device must be capable of achieving the stated capacity, in a controlled environment, within 30 minutes. Their is no metric for abandoning the entire ship, due to the number of potential variables. The only metric we used is do it safely.

 

If a fire was encroaching one of the Assembly Stations, the passengers would be moved well in advance of smoke infiltrating the Assembly Station. You should be aware that Assembly Stations have structural fire protection, which is most likely rated A-60. This standard requires that no smoke or flame enters the space for at least an hour and the bulkhead is insulated, so the bulkhead temperature increases less than 140 C over an hour (this is from memory, so it is possible standards have changed since I retired).

 

Yes, pax will be moved to a safer area, but also to free up space for the boundary cooling team, which would be setting up and cooling the bulkhead.

 

The Master will endeavour to keep the entire compliment on board the ship for as long as possible. Only when the risk of remaining aboard exceeds the risk of utilising the survival craft, will the Master issue the "Abandon Sip" order. This has no signal and can only be given by the Master.

 

Once issued, as the Chief has explained a few times, no clock starts and the ship does not have a deadline to achieve. When evacuating a ship, the goal is to do it safely and in a timely and orderly manner. Anyone who has lowered lifeboats, FRC's or D/L rafts into the water in a seaway knows that it challenging to launch 2 adjacent boats at the same time. The Master may also have to adjust the ship's head to provide a lee. Another challenge with a dead ship, could be the ship setting down on boats on the lee side, making it somewhat challenging and time consuming getting them away from the ship.

 

For all these reasons and many others, it would be impossible to load and launch over a dozen boats from a dead ship in 30 mins. As the Chief advised, 30 mins is a performance metric for each type of survival craft, usually tested in good weather, with the ship upright and secured to the shore.

 

Hopefully this will dispel the myth that an entire ship must be evacuated under any conditions within 30 mins. On the Viking Sky, I believe they got about 1/2 the 930 pax off by helo in 10 to 12 hrs. 

I understand 100% of this. The poster I had originally quoted creates this imaginary unrealistic scenario that the ship was on fire and smoke was in the muster and the ship was listing and you had 30 minutes to evacuate. That is insane and would not occur. His point was that a ‘proper’ muster would allow this to be successful and my point was that the scenario was insane and not going to be successful EVER

[sanger727]

4 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

Let me see. Just say an average business has 500 customers a day—that number is probably small but for the sake of this demo we will include all the mom and pop establishments and one barber barber shops since the poster said every business. That would be over 1.8 million images each in ten years. Methinks there was a bit of exaggeration on the posters part. Even those that do have video, record over after a very short time.

 

 I never said it was held for 10 years. I said that for the last 10 years nearly every business has video that captures you face and they store it for a period of time. Your face is not given a right to privacy against video/photo capture.

[Heidi13]

6 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I have wondered about that.  It seems trying to do within such a time span would be most difficult to accomplish.

 

I have observed on several ships canisters of these rafts stored on deck not near a derrick or davit.  How can these be used?  How do they--if they truly are required--fit into this "30 minute" scenario?  

 

 

The 25 DL liferafts, while heavy can be carried reasonable easily by 2 to 4 crew. Therefore, if they don't have cranes to move them, they can be carried. On one of my ships that had 64 25-person D/L's, to exchange them they were carried to the lift, taken up to the top deck and then carried up a flight of stairs. Not easy, but can be done.

 

Fortunately, we never had to prove the use of 25-person D/L's, but with an exceptional crew, I hoped to achieve at best 4 rafts in 30 mins.

 

Some MES systems have additional overcapacity rafts, which are held in racks that release them overboard. MES rafts have a capacity of 100, 106 or 109, so are too heavy to lift. These rafts are released from the rack and have a line secured to the main MES platform. Once the raft is in the water, the crew pull it over to the MES platform.

 

Note - some ships with D/L rafts have Viking Liferaft Systems, who manufacture a 35-person raft. Haven't sailed with them, but I believe they are too heavy to lift.

[ldubs]

I really could care not much less that someone is storing my image or preferences or DNA for that matter.    As long as my personal info or image isn't being used for something criminal, I see more good than bad.  I can see how dishonest people would not like facial recognition software.  

[chengkp75]

23 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

I have observed on several ships canisters of these rafts stored on deck not near a derrick or davit.  How can these be used?  How do they--if they truly are required--fit into this "30 minute" scenario?  

 

Because the life raft stations on cruise ships are commonly interspersed between the lifeboats, you won't see a "davit" like the boats, or a crane arm, it will be simply a beam that can be extended out over the side of the ship, or a crane arm that is well hidden up between the boats near the overhead under the deck above.  

 

And, as Andy says, the rafts have a secondary and tertiary launching means.  The rafts are held down to the ship with a strap that has a "hydrostatic release" on it, which, when the raft gets to about 20 feet below sea level, it will release the strap, and the raft will float free, and as the ship continues to sink or the wind blows the raft away, the "painter" or mooring line on the raft pays out and when it gets to the end, it activates the inflation device.  The other way, as Andy says, is to manually release the hydrostatic release, pick the raft up, throw it over the side, pull on the painter, and the raft will inflate.  These methods require the people to get into the water first, so that is not optimum, which is why the davit launching is preferred.  The crew inflate the raft at the deck, the raft is loaded, and then lowered to the water.

 

Our crews were tested quarterly by the USCG to be able to launch rafts in the 30 minute window.  For one raft at the station, it was about 6-8 minutes per raft.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

Stop trying to stay on topic while we all wander off into the weeds!! 🤣

And coming back hours later, my question still has not been answered. The only other comment was that it was a very valid question.

 

SO HOW DID MSC DO THE MUSTER DRILL?

[Aquahound]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

And coming back hours later, my question still has not been answered. The only other comment was that it was a very valid question.

 

SO HOW DID MSC DO THE MUSTER DRILL?

 

I really don't know.  I don't have any reason to believe they changed their procedures, only because I haven't seen any reports saying so. There might be reviews out there somewhere that mention it, but I haven't seen it yet.  

[rkacruiser]

20 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

The poster I had originally quoted creates this imaginary unrealistic scenario that the ship was on fire and smoke was in the muster and the ship was listing and you had 30 minutes to evacuate. 

 

Prinsendam I:

 

The guests were told  to assemble at the aft Lido Restaurant which was not the normal Muster Station for all as I understand it.  The fire and smoke continued to spread.  The Master decided to abandon ship.  In order for the guests to get to the lifeboats and liferafts, they had to walk along the outside deck where the lifeboats could be embarked.  Along their path were windows of the Main Lounge which was ablaze.  Windows broke because of the heat from the fire.  (I cannot accurately state from what I have read that this occurred during this period of time.  But, it did happen.)  A tender got hung up in its davit and could not be used.  One tender was launched with the intent to "gather the launched lifeboats together and tow them away from the ship".  That did not happen and it's not clear to me that the tender "saved" anymore than the crew and Officer that launched it.  Some, if not most, lifeboats were overloaded.  All of the crews and guests difficulties were on the size of a ship the fraction the size what is afloat today.  

 

sanger727, I will accept that my "unrealistic imaginary scenario" in your opinion may well be that in your mind.  I respect the posts of the seasoned seafarers who provide excellent, informative information.  The larger the ship on which I sail, the more that I am of the opinion that this "30 minute" time frame to get all at their embarkation point to board whatever the lifesaving craft they will use and away from the ship is unrealistic.  

 

Consider the mind set of many today.  "I am not going to wear a mask.  The virus is fake news"  "I'm not going down that chute to "wherever" because I don't think the ship is in danger."  What is the crew going to do with these types?  Pick them up and throw them into a lifeboat or down a chute?  

 

Who could have predicted the not so imaginary scenario of Costa Concordia?  Or of the Andrea Doria?  Even if all guests were at their Muster Station--at least on the Andrea Doria--the ship could not have been evacuated within a 30 minute time frame.  

 

 

[rkacruiser]

sanger727,

 

I feel "hostility" in your responses to some of my posts. Maybe I am mistaken; I hope so.

 

What I am trying to do is to promote a discussion of this topic with the goal of learning more while sharing what little I know about the topic.  As well as sharing my opinions--valid or not--about the topic.  

[sanger727]

16 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

sanger727,

 

I feel "hostility" in your responses to some of my posts. Maybe I am mistaken; I hope so.

 

What I am trying to do is to promote a discussion of this topic with the goal of learning more while sharing what little I know about the topic.  As well as sharing my opinions--valid or not--about the topic.  

I have no hostility. Was simply pointing out that today’s traditional muster of reporting to an indoor station to watch a safety video would not prepare anyone for a nightmare trec on a listing ship through flaming hallways. Won’t say that that has never happened (though, I don’t think it had a 30 minute time limit). But no single muster would be better than another. That would be a nightmare for the guests and crew under any circumstances. 
 

I don’t think that’s a valid reference point in the debate of traditional musters vs e musters since so many occur at indoor stations and I’ve never had one in an indoor station offer to walk you to the lifeboats

Edited September 13, 2020 by sanger727

[MBP&O2/O]

 

My first fire-fighting course in Canada was led by a shore based fireman. We were using the traditional multi-level steel box and he was talking about using a chain saw to cut holes in the deckhead to vent smoke, gases, etc. I commented you have to be joking, on ships we secure the area, we don't cut holes in the steel or leave FS Doors open. As you may have guessed, the remainder of the course went downhill. Sad when the participants know more than the instructor.

 

However, my first course was in UK and it was also taught by shore-based firemen, but they were excellent, teaching only marine techniques. Still remember their intro and pass/fail explanation. If you were alive after the 4-days you passed, they didn't need to describe the failure criteria. They also mentioned we have 4 days to learn what they cover in a couple of years. Just a little intense.

 

At our home port, the local fire department were very reluctant to come aboard the vessel. Only if led by a member of the crew and using their own hoses, would they enter the ship. 

Liverpool / Speke Airport ???

They told us a similar tale ... if you didn’t have several blisters then you had failed. The non-removal of eyebrows was also a failure[emoji41]

Could they get away with such ‘hands on’ training nowadays?

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, MBP&O2/O said:

Liverpool / Speke Airport ???

They told us a similar tale ... if you didn’t have several blisters then you had failed. The non-removal of eyebrows was also a failure

Could they get away with such ‘hands on’ training nowadays?

Perhaps not as intense, I also remember taking firefighting as a cadet where we were herded into a room where tires were burning underneath, and told to remove our SCBA masks, sing the national anthem, and then they would let us out to puke on the grass.

 

But, now, STCW requires that every 5 years you must re-certify in advance firefighting, and it was quite interesting for this 67 year old guy last year to put on full bunker gear and spend an entire day fighting various scenarios in a steel ship mock-up.  I remember one instructor telling me to "calm my breathing, as it will prolong the air supply" and I responded that it wasn't fear but age, weight, and cardiovascular health that was causing me to pant.  😳

[MBP&O2/O]

Perhaps some office wallah will suggest an e-learning course on a smart phone? Then see what would happen if the excreta reached the ventilation system🤣
Probably a much cheaper option 🤥

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

I really don't know.  I don't have any reason to believe they changed their procedures, only because I haven't seen any reports saying so. There might be reviews out there somewhere that mention it, but I haven't seen it yet.  

That's the closest that someone has come to giving an answer, but still no definitive word.

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I have no hostility. Was simply pointing out that today’s traditional muster of reporting to an indoor station to watch a safety video would not prepare anyone for a nightmare trec on a listing ship through flaming hallways. Won’t say that that has never happened (though, I don’t think it had a 30 minute time limit). But no single muster would be better than another. That would be a nightmare for the guests and crew under any circumstances. 
 

I don’t think that’s a valid reference point in the debate of traditional musters vs e musters since so many occur at indoor stations and I’ve never had one in an indoor station offer to walk you to the lifeboats

And what type of training or drill do you propose for the muster that would prepare passengers for your nightmare scenario?

 

We did have a muster drill that walked us from the indoor muster to the lifeboats. As I wrote in a previous post it was on the HAL Maasdam.

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

Who could have predicted the not so imaginary scenario of Costa Concordia?  Or of the Andrea Doria?  Even if all guests were at their Muster Station--at least on the Andrea Doria--the ship could not have been evacuated within a 30 minute time frame.  

Again, the 30 minute requirement is not to, nor has it ever been, to evacuate the entire ship.

 

Costa Concordia, I will again stress that had the passengers been mustered at the time it was known the ship was flooding, there was over an hour before the ship re-grounded and started listing to the extent that boats and rafts could not be launched, and had she not drifted back to Giglio, she would likely not have heeled over at all, and would have stayed afloat even longer.

 

Andrea Doria, ships have much different damaged stability requirements than over 60 years ago.  Life boat and raft launching devices are designed to operate at higher angles of heel than they were at the time the Doria sank.  Both of which could have led to a speedier evacuation, even though the ship stayed afloat for 11 hours.  There was a flaw in Doria's design that allowed progressive flooding to reach a generator room, causing a loss of power, which precluded any counter-ballasting to lessen the heel and allow the remaining life boats to be launched.  Again, these types of design flaws are constantly being addressed in ship design.

 

Again, the 30 minute requirement is not to, nor has it ever been, to evacuate the entire ship.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

15 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 I never said it was held for 10 years. I said that for the last 10 years nearly every business has video that captures you face and they store it for a period of time. Your face is not given a right to privacy against video/photo capture.

 

15 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I never said that those images were stored for 10 years. For the last 10 years almost every store has had security video. Those videos are stored for a period of time that is convenient for the store. So the claim that you have rights protecting your face from a store from capturing is ridiculous. Do they hold onto some images? Yes. Do they hold onto most? No. I did say that very few businesses use facial recognition, not claiming that that is an issue today. Just that it will probably be in the future.

 

You keep ignoring what I've said and go back to your red herring/strawman. It is not your image being captured that is an issue because they are not capturing you individually and specifically. They are capturing everyone generically and have no idea who you are. It is when they start capturing you individually and specifically, identifying you individually and specifically and use that information to their own benefit that issues start. You do have privacy rights.

 

You have seen in the last year how almost every website you go to now informs you that they collect information on you, plant cookies on your computer and are forced to get your permission? When stores, filling stations, restaurants, etc start capturing your individual and specific identity they should have to get the same kinds of permission.

 

I have loyalty cards from Safeway and Kroger. I fully understand that the loyalty card is not for my benefit. It is for the benefit of the store to collect information on me, my shopping habits and they give me some discounts to make the invasion of my privacy worth it. I read the terms and conditions of the loyalty card and I consented to them. I have no doubt that if they can sell my information to others they will. I am sure that was in the terms I agreed to years ago. But the point is, I was informed and agreed.

 

Information is power and money. How do you think Google, a service you use for absolutely free, is worth over $1 trillion? There are only three other companies with a valuation of over $1t and they all actually sell goods and services. So again, why is Google worth over $1t? Because they know everything about you and they sell that information to others.

 

15 hours ago, ldubs said:

I really could care not much less that someone is storing my image or preferences or DNA for that matter.    As long as my personal info or image isn't being used for something criminal, I see more good than bad.  I can see how dishonest people would not like facial recognition software. 

 

This is a version of "only guilty people need lawyers". If you don't care about your personal info go ahead and post your name and address, your date of birth, your height, your weight, the names of your kids, etc.

 

It isn't just that your information isn't being used for anything criminal (more on that later), but that it is not being used to your benefit. It is being collected to benefit the collector. When a business collects information on you there needs to be disclosure that it is being collected, what it is being collected for and they need to obtain permission on the collection and use of your personal information.

 

As to, "as long as it isn't being used for something criminal"; Kroger (for example) may have no criminal intent in the personal information they gather about you, but once they have the information about you, what are they doing to keep it secure? If the government and credit card companies can't keep your information safe from hackers, how do you expect other, less savvy companies to?