Carnival Corporation to Sell 13 Cruise Ships

[Aquahound]

52 minutes ago, Himself said:

I think I will stick with HAL.

 

That's probably the conclusion you wanted.  Nothing wrong with that.  There's a lot to be said about familiarity.  HAL isn't a bad line and frankly, they have a certain traditional ambiance that doesn't exist in any other mass market line.  Celebrity has a very modern, South Beach type of vibe.  I think the 2 lines are very different.  

[iancal]

HAL did not cut these four ships (and Prinsendam) loose because they were making lots of money.

 

The ships may have been making money at an operational level but perhaps not on a fully loaded basis when all costs were accounted for.
 

 Or, they may been profitable but were not hitting the minimum profit targets of other HAL ships and/or those targets set by Carnival Corp.
 

 No business wants to carry underperforming assets. Does not mean that smaller ships can not profitable.  It may mean that HAL could not realize the fares to support those ships.  It was probably just a matter of time.

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by iancal

[npcl]

46 minutes ago, iancal said:

HAL did not cut these four ships (and Prinsendam) loose because they were making lots of money.

 

The ships may have been making money at an operational level but perhaps not on a fully loaded basis when all costs were accounted for.
 

 Or, they may been profitable but were not hitting the minimum profit targets of other HAL ships and/or those targets set by Carnival Corp.
 

 No business wants to carry underperforming assets. Does not mean that smaller ships can not profitable.  It may mean that HAL could not realize the fares to support those ships.  It was probably just a matter of time.

 

keep in mind that HAL demographics also match up with the at risk age groups.  Smallest least economically efficient ships, older demographics.  Not surprising that the smaller ships will go.

 

Also HAL tends to use the smaller ships for some of their longer routes.  

 

Makes sense that they expect a long recovery for HAL.

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by npcl

[Himself]

47 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

That's probably the conclusion you wanted.  Nothing wrong with that.  There's a lot to be said about familiarity.  HAL isn't a bad line and frankly, they have a certain traditional ambiance that doesn't exist in any other mass market line.  Celebrity has a very modern, South Beach type of vibe.  I think the 2 lines are very different.  

I am not sure I am the South beach type.  The Magic Carpet of the Edge and Apes might be interesting to experience.  I am not a heavy drinker.

[Copper10-8]

2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

No, I was trying to be clear that they said what you said but if what they said was true Azamara and Oceania among others would be out of business.  The point is, small ships are profitable at the right price point.

 

Me thinks they were comparing the "S," the "R"-class and the Elegant Explorer versus the Vista-class and up as far as profitability................ Azamara, Oceania and the others don't have those issues since they don't have to worry about five different classes of ships plus one in a class of her own 

[npcl]

14 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Me thinks they were comparing the "S," the "R"-class and the Elegant Explorer versus the Vista-class and up as far as profitability................ Azamara, Oceania and the others don't have those issues since they don't have to worry about five different classes of ships plus one in a class of her own 

They don't have the same issues because they are not competing at the same price point. While there is not public data available giving direct price comparisons there is data that gives percentage of customers and percentage of revenue by line.  So that data can give you a relationship between lines in revenue per customer.  If you look at those ratios (Percent revenue market share/Percent passenger market share from Market Watch) you have clear lines of pricing differential between mass market and premium lines. 

 

Princess  1.42

Celebrity 1.51

HAL 1.75

 

Then you have a substantial jump to those lines that are clearly profitable with the small ships

Azmara 3.0

Oceania  4.6

 

If you want to make a profit with the small ships then you need to be in the Premium line price range, not the Mass Market with Princess, Celebrity and HAL 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by npcl

[Copper10-8]

8 minutes ago, npcl said:

They don't have the same issues because they are not competing at the same price point. While there is not public data available giving direct price comparisons there is data that gives percentage of customers and percentage of revenue by line.  So that data can give you a relationship between lines in revenue per customer.  If you look at those ratios (Percent revenue market share/Percent passenger market share from Market Watch) you have clear lines of pricing differential between mass market and premium lines. 

 

Princess  1.42

Celebrity 1.51

HAL 1.75

 

Then you have a substantial jump to those lines that are clearly profitable with the small ships

Azmara 3.0

Oceania  4.6

 

If you want to make a profit with the small ships then you need to be in the Premium line price range, not the Mass Market with Princess, Celebrity and HAL 

 

 

Thanx for 'splainin' that side of it, Sir! 

[drsel]

I think I will stick with HAL.

You should try Celebrity (at least once) and find out the difference

[crusinbanjo]

As I said in another thread, "I guess I am glad I don’t have a future booking or FCC on HAL at this time.  Mrs Banjo and I will be leaving the fleet for cruise lines that continue to offer smaller ships."

[ontheweb]

40 minutes ago, crusinbanjo said:

As I said in another thread, "I guess I am glad I don’t have a future booking or FCC on HAL at this time.  Mrs Banjo and I will be leaving the fleet for cruise lines that continue to offer smaller ships."

And that is of course your choice. There really should be a wide range of choices available since we are all different.

 

Unfortunately, this downsizing because of the virus is not going to be good for there to be as wide a range of choices as one would like there to be.

 

[iancal]

Downsizing HAL's fleet is no doubt a very good move on their part.  Especially in these challenging times, and post covid.

 

It may even be good those those who prefer smaller ships.  Those four (plus one) ships will now be operated by cruise lines that specialize in that market.  More competition in that space.  For some cruisers, it will of course mean that they will have to venture out and try something different.

 

I would expect that HAL is zeroing in on  the remaining two.  Zaandam and Volendam.  Both older, smaller.  I would not be counting on using my FCC's on either of these two ships!

Edited July 18, 2020 by iancal

[Himself]

11 hours ago, drsel said:

14 hours ago, Himself said:

I think I will stick with HAL.

You should try Celebrity (at least once) and find out the difference

I do not know where Celebrity got my name but I get daily emails from them.  

[drsel]

 

 

 

 

They don't have the same issues because they are not competing at the same price point. you have clear lines of pricing differential between mass market and premium lines.  Princess  1.42

Celebrity 1.51

HAL 1.75

Azmara 3.0

Oceania  4.6

If you want to make a profit with the small ships then you need to be in the Premium line price range, not the Mass Market with Princess, Celebrity and HAL  

 

Thanks for this very useful information.

 

it just shows that booking Princess or Celebrity are better deals than HAL, and much better deals compared to the highly profitable premium lines

 

 

 

[iancal]

Over the years our experience at booking inside the final payment window on like for like cruises is that Celebrity and Princess were most often lower at our time of booking.  On multiple Med and Caribbean cruises.

 

More often it was Celebrity that was the lower of the two.   But on our SA cruise it was Infinity as the top price , followed by Zaandam (I think) with Crown Princess being considerably lower.  HAL was lowest a few times in the Caribbean.  HAL  have most definitely been among the lowest priced on their late booking Alaska routes for several seasons, followed by Princess, then Celebrity at the top.

 

The proviso being at time of booking.  Once we booked, paid in full, we had no further interest in the pricing of the other two cruise lines we shopped.  Don't know about pricing 12-18 month out since we never did/do that.

Edited July 18, 2020 by iancal

[Cruising-along]

On 7/16/2020 at 7:39 PM, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

There's your chance to try the Edge with the magic carpet ride, Father! 😉 

 

We have a December cruise booked on the Apex.  At this point I have no idea if it will happen though, so not getting my hopes up!

[npcl]

4 hours ago, drsel said:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this very useful information.

 

it just shows that booking Princess or Celebrity are better deals than HAL, and much better deals compared to the highly profitable premium lines

 

 

 

Keep in mind that the data is based upon % revenue/% passengers  so to be truly accurate instead of being a general relationship you would need to adjust for average cruise length, number of 3/4 bunk occupancy, etc.  Since HAL tends to do longer cruises than Celebrity, that would bring the HAL fare number down.  Also this was based upon 2018 numbers.

So while it is useful for seeing the difference between the family mass market (Carnival, Royal), the mass market (Princess, Celebrity, and HAL, the premium lines (Oceania, Azmara, and luxury lines (Crystal, Regent).  It would need to be adjusted for other factors to be truly accurate since for fare comparisons you would want avg fare per passenger per day.

[drsel]

I would want be a customer of a less profitable cruise line and a part owner of the most profitable cruise line

 

Just as I would like to be a part owner of Apple, instead of its customer

[iancal]

Not me.  
 

I want to be a customer of a profitable cruise line.  Much less chance of deferred mtce, soft goods, furniture, fittings past their sell by date, and cutbacks in food, service and entertainment.

[JanDom]

You should try Celebrity (at least once) and find out the difference

We tried both. X ships are beautiful but on sea days you won’t find a table at mdr- so last time we had our dinner outside in our hand while it was raining.
When we went to Hubbard Glacier we were two hours early. Because we have been there before, we went out and saw everything. The announcement came when we left the glacier with the information we were early and we will leave now...
we had 4 cruises with X and two cruises were more then mad, so we will stay with HAL
(Here we have some mistakes too, but not as bad as X!!)


Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[npcl]

8 hours ago, iancal said:

Downsizing HAL's fleet is no doubt a very good move on their part.  Especially in these challenging times, and post covid.

 

It may even be good those those who prefer smaller ships.  Those four (plus one) ships will now be operated by cruise lines that specialize in that market.  More competition in that space.  For some cruisers, it will of course mean that they will have to venture out and try something different.

 

I would expect that HAL is zeroing in on  the remaining two.  Zaandam and Volendam.  Both older, smaller.  I would not be counting on using my FCC's on either of these two ships!

It does pretty much remove small ships in the mass market price point from the US market.  Not sure I would care to cruise on the lines they are going two.  Tried one of them once, that was enough. My  experience is higher price point than HAL, not as good of a cruise experience.

 

So I guess if I want small ships have to move up to the premium line price point.

[drsel]

Updated list
Previously sold
Costa neoClassica sold to Bahamas Paradise
Costa neoRiviera sold to AIDA (group Co.)
Costa Atlantica - sold to Carnival-China JV
Costa Mediterranea - sold to Carnival-China JV
P&O Aus Pacific Aria - sold to CMV, early departure
P&O Aus Pacific Dawn-sold to CMV, early departure

Confirmed
Costa Victoria - sold for scrap
P&O Oceana sold to Greek buyer-Chinese interests
HAL Maasdam
HAL Veendam
HAL Rotterdam sold to Fred Olsen
HAL Amsterdam sold to Fred Olsen
Costa neoRomantica - sold to Celestyal Cruises
Golden Princess - internal transfer to P&O Australia
Star Princess - internal transfer to P&O Australia

Very Likely
Carnival Fascination - sold for scrap
Carnival Inspiration - sold for scrap
Carnival Elation - sold for scrap
Carnival Imagination - sold for scrap
Carnival Ecstasy - sold for scrap
Carnival Fantasy- sold for scrap

[DeeDee Groff]

11 hours ago, iancal said:

Downsizing HAL's fleet is no doubt a very good move on their part.  Especially in these challenging times, and post covid.

 

It may even be good those those who prefer smaller ships.  Those four (plus one) ships will now be operated by cruise lines that specialize in that market.  More competition in that space.  For some cruisers, it will of course mean that they will have to venture out and try something different.

 

I would expect that HAL is zeroing in on  the remaining two.  Zaandam and Volendam.  Both older, smaller.  I would not be counting on using my FCC's on either of these two ships!

 

So do you believe I may not be sailing on the Zaandam from Fort Lauderdale on October 10, 2021 on the Grand Africa Voyage?

[drsel]

After selling so many ships (including 4 HAL ships), I think that Carnival is done selling ships.
So Zaandam appears to be safe.

[Copper10-8]

3 hours ago, drsel said:

Updated list
Previously sold
Costa neoClassica sold to Bahamas Paradise
Costa neoRiviera sold to AIDA (group Co.)
Costa Atlantica - sold to Carnival-China JV
Costa Mediterranea - sold to Carnival-China JV
P&O Aus Pacific Aria - sold to CMV, early departure
P&O Aus Pacific Dawn-sold to CMV, early departure

Confirmed
Costa Victoria - sold for scrap
P&O Oceana sold to Greek buyer-Chinese interests
HAL Maasdam
HAL Veendam
HAL Rotterdam sold to Fred Olsen
HAL Amsterdam sold to Fred Olsen
Costa neoRomantica - sold to Celestyal Cruises
Golden Princess - internal transfer to P&O Australia
Star Princess - internal transfer to P&O Australia

Very Likely
Carnival Fascination - sold for scrap
Carnival Inspiration - sold for scrap
Carnival Elation - sold for scrap
Carnival Imagination - sold for scrap
Carnival Ecstasy - sold for scrap
Carnival Fantasy- sold for scrap

 

Both Carnival Fantasy (ETA in ten days) and Carnival Inspiration (ETA 03 Aug) show enroute Izmir, Turkey. There is only one reason for calling at Izmir in the current climate; the Aliaga ship breaking yard, located about 50 km north of that city 

[Despegue]

Reading all of this makes me sad.

Since I was a small child, my 2 passions were Cruise ships and Aviation, particulary the B747 Queen of the Skies and anything related to Carnival ( the bright interiours, colours fascinated me. Still do to be honest)

 

Now 30 years later, I am Captain on one of my passions, but see my Queen being retired with every airline, including mine. ( God knows where I will end up).It is like having to say goodbye to a good friend.

 

I never was able to sail onboard my favourite ships Fantasy and Sisters.  In so many ways, these ships were revolutionary. Their soaring Atriums, the still very Joe Farcus but more classy and actually sporting an Expensively themed decor, the entry of Carnival into the big players and in my opinion the real start of mass market cruising...

 

Each Fantasy class vessel is themed completely differently, they could be floating design museums and thema parks at once, but alas, they are destined to become cans of coke and beer .Just like the Queen.