MSC Not Tolerating Violation of New C-19 Health Protocols

[PTC DAWG]

1 hour ago, vulcan1971 said:

 

Yeah, like people staying home for an extended time to limit the potential of spread followed by a slower and thoughtful reopening. Gee, I wonder if that would have worked in the U.S.? Oh, wait a second... isn't that what the CDC recommended in the reopening guidance? Much of the country didn't follow it and look where we are as a country.  The northeast did follow it and essentially are managing to have some semblance of normalcy. It comes at a great effort needed from ALL to make this work.

The NE was a cluster you know what in the beginning...and no doubt, the CDC has been all over the place...I think things are getting better, I know they are in my area...cases in GA peaked in mid July...over half the blamed deaths in Elderly Care homes overall...unfortunately, many of those folks are already very compromised..

Edited August 26, 2020 by PTC DAWG

[mnocket]

55 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

This isn't something I'd choose to make a stand on.

 

To me (as an editor) saying "such as" implies "similar to" and not "exactly"....

 

Exactly.  And this is the crux of my argument.....

 

How does one interpret "All crew members will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves"?

 

It's simply not specific.  Whenever I press someone, who insists that MSC's guidance is clear, to specifically address whether  crew members will wear face coverings or hand coverings - they can't.  Then they claim I am being unreasonable and unwilling to listen to opposing views. 

 

To the relief of many - I give up.  🏳️

Edited August 26, 2020 by mnocket

[Fouremco]

52 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Perhaps.  So enlighten me.....

 

If "All crew members will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves" is so clear to you.  Answer these questions for me:

• Will all crew members wear face coverings?
• Will all crew members wear hand coverings?
• Do MSC's on board practices comply with your answers?

One last shot at it.

 

All crew members will wear protective gear of some sort, possibly including masks and gloves, both of which were shown as examples of PPE. I'm not sure of the total number of different roles or occupations there are on an MSC cruise ship, but the specific PPE worn will vary with the job at hand, just as their clothing will vary. As an example, the pastry chef in the kitchen preparing pies for dinner and the engineer performing maintenance in the bowels of the engine room probably have very different attire and PPE requirements. Many crew members perform more than one role, and their PPE may change, depending upon the role that they are playing at any given time. In addition to the varied PPE requirements when on duty, each member of the crew may wear different PPE when off duty.  

 

• Will all crew members wear face coverings?

Yes, at some point in the day. Some may wear face covering all of the time when on duty and others may not need to. That engineer working in the engine room may not wear one because there is no one else around, but may be obliged to do so when he exits and heads to crew quarters.

 

• Will all crew members wear hand coverings?

Similar answer: it all depends on the circumstances and the requirements.

 

• Do MSC's on board practices comply with your answers?

From the video and other sources of information, I have no reason to believe that MSC hasn't been diligent in ensuring compliance with its protocols. That is very consistent with my answers.

 

All cruise lines have safety measures for, as an example, a fire onboard. The muster drill provides passengers with the information that they need to know, but provides no definitive list of each crew member's specific role should there be a fire. MSC has published its safety protocols with respect to COVID-19, including the fact that all crew members will wear PPE, but hasn't provided a definitive list of each crew member's specific PPE requirements throughout the day. I have no need to drill down any further, and nor does the vast majority of people on this board it would seem. If you really want to know who wears what when, I suggest that you write to MSC to request the information. 

 

 

 

 

[mnocket]

4 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

One last shot at it.

 

All crew members will wear protective gear of some sort, possibly including masks and gloves, both of which were shown as examples of PPE. I'm not sure of the total number of different roles or occupations there are on an MSC cruise ship, but the specific PPE worn will vary with the job at hand, just as their clothing will vary. As an example, the pastry chef in the kitchen preparing pies for dinner and the engineer performing maintenance in the bowels of the engine room probably have very different attire and PPE requirements. Many crew members perform more than one role, and their PPE may change, depending upon the role that they are playing at any given time. In addition to the varied PPE requirements when on duty, each member of the crew may wear different PPE when off duty.  

 

• Will all crew members wear face coverings?

Yes, at some point in the day. Some may wear face covering all of the time when on duty and others may not need to. That engineer working in the engine room may not wear one because there is no one else around, but may be obliged to do so when he exits and heads to crew quarters.

 

• Will all crew members wear hand coverings?

Similar answer: it all depends on the circumstances and the requirements.

 

• Do MSC's on board practices comply with your answers?

From the video and other sources of information, I have no reason to believe that MSC hasn't been diligent in ensuring compliance with its protocols. That is very consistent with my answers.

 

All cruise lines have safety measures for, as an example, a fire onboard. The muster drill provides passengers with the information that they need to know, but provides no definitive list of each crew member's specific role should there be a fire. MSC has published its safety protocols with respect to COVID-19, including the fact that all crew members will wear PPE, but hasn't provided a definitive list of each crew member's specific PPE requirements throughout the day. I have no need to drill down any further, and nor does the vast majority of people on this board it would seem. If you really want to know who wears what when, I suggest that you write to MSC to request the information. 

 

 

 

 

OK, I lied....

 

This is simply conjecture on your part.  The statement "All crew members will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves" does not offer such detail (that is exactly the problem).  For example, from the above statement, there is simply no way to know if the protocol requires waiters to wear face coverings or gloves.  

 

Now I really and truly give up (as previously promised) 🏳️

[Shadow9612]

9 hours ago, Miaminice said:

 

I don’t get why you are so adamant about that MSC would have to make you or anybody else who cannot cruise with them understand. It’s totally irrelevant in regards of the discussed cruises.

I don't understand why this is important.    Cruising is a global phenomenon, so the criteria should be clear for anybody that reads it. Are you suggesting that when Americans and/or Canadians can sail MSC, that's when they would clarify theur criteria? Why not just make it clear up front.

 

To me it's not a debate about face mask or face shield. Just state what the customers can expect when they get on board. Clearly.

[Shadow9612]

6 hours ago, Fouremco said:

One last shot at it.

 

All crew members will wear protective gear of some sort, possibly including masks and gloves, both of which were shown as examples of PPE. I'm not sure of the total number of different roles or occupations there are on an MSC cruise ship, but the specific PPE worn will vary with the job at hand, just as their clothing will vary. As an example, the pastry chef in the kitchen preparing pies for dinner and the engineer performing maintenance in the bowels of the engine room probably have very different attire and PPE requirements. Many crew members perform more than one role, and their PPE may change, depending upon the role that they are playing at any given time. In addition to the varied PPE requirements when on duty, each member of the crew may wear different PPE when off duty.  

 

• Will all crew members wear face coverings?

Yes, at some point in the day. Some may wear face covering all of the time when on duty and others may not need to. That engineer working in the engine room may not wear one because there is no one else around, but may be obliged to do so when he exits and heads to crew quarters.

 

• Will all crew members wear hand coverings?

Similar answer: it all depends on the circumstances and the requirements.

 

• Do MSC's on board practices comply with your answers?

From the video and other sources of information, I have no reason to believe that MSC hasn't been diligent in ensuring compliance with its protocols. That is very consistent with my answers.

 

All cruise lines have safety measures for, as an example, a fire onboard. The muster drill provides passengers with the information that they need to know, but provides no definitive list of each crew member's specific role should there be a fire. MSC has published its safety protocols with respect to COVID-19, including the fact that all crew members will wear PPE, but hasn't provided a definitive list of each crew member's specific PPE requirements throughout the day. I have no need to drill down any further, and nor does the vast majority of people on this board it would seem. If you really want to know who wears what when, I suggest that you write to MSC to request the information. 

 

 

 

 

@Fouremco I am with you 99.99% of the time, and I don't disagree with your explanation above.  

 

I'm not arguing for or against MSC per say.  However, I do agree with @mnocket.  MSC's qualifying examples of PPE are open to interpretation and/or misunderstanding (even though it may be grammatically correct, and understood by their current clients (eg Italians).  With something so important, there should be no room for error or misinterpretation.

 

Again, to me, it's not about whether MSC is following their policy (I would agree they are), it's about what people interpret the rules to mean so they can make decisions.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Shadow9612

[Miaminice]

13 hours ago, mnocket said:

So answer my simple question......

What does "All crew will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves" specifically mean to Italians in terms of face coverings and hand coverings?  It should be easy for to answer. 

 

Geez!!!! The answer has been given to you more than just once... you just don´t like it.
 

Although I am starting to thing you enjoy playing stupid (at least I still hope you are just playing), I will try to explain it to you in simple terms:

 

Antonio and Maria (Italians) read: PPE and protocolls according to  Italian authorities (and hotel association)...

Antonio and Maria know that face shields are part of it and where gloves are required or not.

Antonio and Maria also know because they see it every day in the supermarket, restaurants, hotels etc.

Antonio and Maria think : Tutto bene! We go on cruise.

Just like Francesco and Paula and all the others on board they are not surprised on the ship and just enjoy their cruise. What they see is what all ofhave been seeing and doing for many months already.

Now they might hear that far away in America a certain mnrocket gets upset about the policies.

Antonio and Maria have a drink with Francesco and Paula, toast and say:

Who the f... is mnrocket? Why does he care? They should get their act together at home before worrying about our cruise. 

 

 

BTW: for those quoting and dissecting the information in English. The Italians addressed received the info in Italian - which is not necessarily the same wording. So arguing about English terminology is futile.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Miaminice

[MarkusToe]

I'm shure MSC has much more detailled guidance internally then published.

Thats normal within every big company - you as external do not need to know everything....

 

In this case: the crew will use appropiate equipment - thats it - no need to discuss about it

[sanger727]

14 hours ago, Dwight1 said:

Of course this is the same Crazy CDC that just issued a directive that you don’t need testing unless you have symptoms even if you believe you were near some one with covid 19. Everyone is scratching their heads now,


Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

So, I have been working with my health department as my work place's liaison for covid. And this is the exact same advice they have always given us. The reason being, that prior to developing symptoms you are likely to test negative even if you have the virus. This creates a false sense of security that you are covid free and stop quarantining when you are not and can't. So it's not actually crazy; and is very consistent with the advice our local health department gives. An example that happened in my workplace is that someone was in close contact exposure to someone with covid. She was quarantined for 2 weeks. A few days into the quarantine she got tested for covid and came back negative. She and her supervisors now felt that it was ok for her to break quarantine because she had a negative test so she came back to work. 4 days later she developed covid symptoms and tested postive. In the meantime, in those 4 days she was infecting people at work when she should have been at home quarantining. So, no, in that light, it isn't crazy. I'm surprised people are making such a big deal about this. 

[Miaminice]

My last comment in regards of face shields:

 

These are images from TUI Cruises. Waiters are wearing face shields.

Gloves are worn when handling food etc. but not always and anywhere. 

No German guest would be surprised or would complain. Simply because the bottom line and sentiment is that protocolls are followed in a reasonable and sensible way. 

 

All has to be seen in regards of circumstances: low number of infections in the respective country, tested guests, protocolls etc. What´s sufficient in one country and region can be different in another.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Miaminice

[rhblake]

This is an Italian cruise line, available only to Italians, sailing only to Italian ports. My guess is that their protocols and /or information were written in Italian and maybe our English translation, which is what we are discussing, is the problem.

[Miaminice]

6 minutes ago, rhblake said:

This is an Italian cruise line, available only to Italians, sailing only to Italian ports. My guess is that their protocols and /or information were written in Italian and maybe our English translation, which is what we are discussing, is the problem.

👍
like I said in #167

Edited August 27, 2020 by Miaminice

[cangelmd]

17 hours ago, Dwight1 said:

Of course this is the same Crazy CDC that just issued a directive that you don’t need testing unless you have symptoms even if you believe you were near some one with covid 19. Everyone is scratching their heads now,


Sent from my iPhone using Forums

We don’t have enough tests to test everyone that has been exposed, especially if we are going to have anything like enough tests for flu season.

Schools, particularly, colleges and universities have tested hundreds of thousands of asymptomatic kids (which is a good prevalence study in a higher prevalence population). Many have tried to responsibly develop a platform outside the clinical world, but still are all using the same reagents.

[cangelmd]

I will say upfront, I’m too lazy to go back through the previous 6 pages - has the MSC cruise made it back to port? Have there been any reported positive tests?

[d9704011]

7 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

I will say upfront, I’m too lazy to go back through the previous 6 pages - has the MSC cruise made it back to port? Have there been any reported positive tests?

Yes.  No.

[Keys Kathy]

On 8/20/2020 at 9:16 AM, WrittenOnYourHeart said:

Fabulous job MSC!!

 

Too often we see cruise lines and other businesses afraid to actually enforce their rules to not make the customer angry. But there are too many people who take advantage of that by doing what they want and then screaming "the customer is always right". Sorry, but no. There are times when the customer is NOT right and the business has the right - I would say the obligation - to uphold their regulations and rules.

 

Happy to see that at least one cruise line isn't going to ignore things to keep everyone happy.

Yes, it is nice to see the rules enforced for the enjoyment of all guests. You know the rules before you step on board. I was on X and there was a guy in shorts and flip flops in the main dining room on formal night. The Hostess said she couldn't do anything about it. 

 

Perhaps MORE of the rules will be enforced now.

[Fouremco]

10 hours ago, Shadow9612 said:

@Fouremco I am with you 99.99% of the time, and I don't disagree with your explanation above.  

 

I'm not arguing for or against MSC per say.  However, I do agree with @mnocket.  MSC's qualifying examples of PPE are open to interpretation and/or misunderstanding (even though it may be grammatically correct, and understood by their current clients (eg Italians).  With something so important, there should be no room for error or misinterpretation.

 

Again, to me, it's not about whether MSC is following their policy (I would agree they are), it's about what people interpret the rules to mean so they can make decisions.

 

 

Thanks @Shadow9612. These boards would be boring if we all agreed 100% of the time.

 

Let me flip this issue around for just a minute. Knowing now that, depending on the situation, crew members will be wearing  masks, shields or no face covering, and similarly may or may not be wearing gloves, how would you word a replacement for MSC's statement that "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves" so as to address your concerns and those of @mnocket? 

[Shadow9612]

25 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Thanks @Shadow9612. These boards would be boring if we all agreed 100% of the time.

 

Let me flip this issue around for just a minute. Knowing now that, depending on the situation, crew members will be wearing  masks, shields or no face covering, and similarly may or may not be wearing gloves, how would you word a replacement for MSC's statement that "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves" so as to address your concerns and those of @mnocket? 

@Fouremco If MSC allows face shields or face masks, I would have liked to see: 

 

"All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks or face shields, and gloves"

 

Then no surprises when a person arrives.

 

I'm not criticizing the protocols MSC chooses to use.  If MSC procedure is to use face shields, they should have used that as their example instead of face masks.  

 

It doesn't make sense to me that their example lists masks but crew is all wearing shields.  Why not use shields then?  Maybe it is just a translation issue??

 

I do feel this has become much more debated by a few others than necessary.... 🙂

 

Plus, I didn't realize only Italians are permitted to cruise on MSC as per post 171 by @rhblake

 

 

[Miaminice]

21 minutes ago, Shadow9612 said:

Plus, I didn't realize only Italians are permitted to cruise on MSC as per post 171 by @rhblake

 

 

🙂 With all due respect... or as early as in post #82 and more after.

Which is why I keep repeating how pointless the demand by Americans or Canadians for (already existing) transparancy in English wording. The ones addressed (Italians) know what´s meant and have no issue whatsoever.

 

We should all be happy that some cruises are already sailing. All those cruises are testing the waters and protocolls. 
At some point American cruise lines such as Celebrity will decide to cruise again - wherever that might be.

The experiences made by MSC, TUI, Costa, Aida etc. will be priceless until then.

 

I will test the experience myself in September.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Miaminice

[Shadow9612]

4 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

🙂 With all due respect... or as early as in post #82 and more after.

 

To be honest, I was being slightly sarcastic.  

 

I was under the impression that as a Canadian, I was able to book a MSC cruise (Pre-pandemic).  Meaning, i would be able to again in the future. Meaning the literature should be clear for everyone.  

 

IMHO, it doesn't matter if the MSC cruises right now are for Italians only. 

 

 

 

[Fouremco]

20 minutes ago, Shadow9612 said:

@Fouremco If MSC allows face shields or face masks, I would have liked to see: 

 

"All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks or face shields, and gloves"

 

Then no surprises when a person arrives.

 

I'm not criticizing the protocols MSC chooses to use.  If MSC procedure is to use face shields, they should have used that as their example instead of face masks.  

 

It doesn't make sense to me that their example lists masks but crew is all wearing shields.  Why not use shields then?  Maybe it is just a translation issue??

 

I do feel this has become much more debated by a few others than necessary.... 🙂

 

Plus, I didn't realize only Italians are permitted to cruise on MSC as per post 171 by @rhblake

 

 

If I may play the devil's advocate, all you've done is add another example of PPE to the "such as" list, and the issue now becomes "why didn't the protocols specify when masks would be worn and when face shields would be worn?" Your concern that "there should be no room for error or misinterpretation" really hasn't been resolved.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think that any amount of wordsmithing is going to satisfy everyone. Personally, I'm taking a holistic approach to MSC's protocols and I think that they've done a great job in creating a safe environment for crew and passengers alike. As far as I know, they have had zero cases of COVID-19 aboard since restarting.

 

 

[Shadow9612]

1 minute ago, Fouremco said:

If I may play the devil's advocate, all you've done is add another example of PPE to the "such as" list, and the issue now becomes "why didn't the protocols specify when masks would be worn and when face shields would be worn?" Your concern that "there should be no room for error or misinterpretation" really hasn't been resolved.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think that any amount of wordsmithing is going to satisfy everyone. Personally, I'm taking a holistic approach to MSC's protocols and I think that they've done a great job in creating a safe environment for crew and passengers alike. As far as I know, they have had zero cases of COVID-19 aboard since restarting.

 

 

Excellent points.  I Agree.

 

I would reiterate,  I fully supported MSCs actions and am very optimistic and hopeful that other cruise lines will follow suit and be as successful.  I think MSC has done a great job from what I've read.

 

This whole debate (shield vs mask) was an aside, and not meant to detract from the positive work they've done. 

 

 

[Baron Barracuda]

I believe MSC's stated rules and crews compliance with them are still very much a work in progress.  Italian health authorities and MSC senior management are no doubt monitoring sailings closely and will make whatever adjustments they feel necessary.

[Miaminice]

1 hour ago, Shadow9612 said:

 

To be honest, I was being slightly sarcastic.  

 

I was under the impression that as a Canadian, I was able to book a MSC cruise (Pre-pandemic).  Meaning, i would be able to again in the future. Meaning the literature should be clear for everyone.  

 

IMHO, it doesn't matter if the MSC cruises right now are for Italians only. 

 

 

 

 

And we would gladly welcome you Canadians in Europe 😉 
 

But even us as Germany would not have been able to book the first MSC cruises. However, the next cruises are available for Europeans. TBH MSC is no temptation for us at all. 

We booked one of the TUI cruises. TUI is very comparable to Celebrity. The only thing we usually don´t like is that TUI is very limited to Germans/German speaking passengers. Oh well, it was either that or not cruising at all.

I do think it makes a difference if the cruises discussed here were for Italians only. Like I said that simple fact makes 99% of the discussion pointless - or better even more pointless LOL

Edited August 27, 2020 by Miaminice

[sanger727]

58 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

 

 

At the end of the day, I don't think that any amount of wordsmithing is going to satisfy everyone. Personally, I'm taking a holistic approach to MSC's protocols and I think that they've done a great job in creating a safe environment for crew and passengers alike. As far as I know, they have had zero cases of COVID-19 aboard since restarting.

 

 

 

No protocals, including MSC's are infallible, and as in all things, it's a matter of when and not if. That being said. While the face shield/mask thing does not seem to be an issue in Italy (and  I realize that is all that is relevant right now); I do think that with American consumers, the face shields will not fly.  So there's no harm in pointing that out for discussion and hopefully their protocols will be adapted as more markets open up. I (and I think plenty of Americans) would much prefer to see someone with their nose and mouth completely covered than see them smiling at me. So the shields are not appealing alternatives.