MSC Not Tolerating Violation of New C-19 Health Protocols

[Miaminice]

58 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Citation?

Geez... another one on a mission.

 

In the hospitality business in Germany and Italy (we just returned from a week in italy today) the face shields shown and even smaller ones worn above the chin, barely over mouth and nose, are accepted. You (or I) might not like it, but that’s how it is. 
So they are not breaking any rules or any promise.

 

Don’t like it, don’t cruise with them - simple.

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Miaminice

[ECCruise]

6 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

Geez... another one on a mission.

 

In the hospitality business in Germany and Italy (we just returned from a week in italy today) the face shields shown and even smaller ones worn above the chin, barely over mouth and nose, are accepted. You (or I) might not like it, but that’s how it is. 
So they are not breaking any rules or any promise.

 

Don’t like it, don’t cruise with them - simple.

 

Please do not make assumptions of my thoughts on this.  You, likewise, could be seen as on a mission, especially with your "if you don't like it, don't cruise with them."

 

My thoughts were simply that a face shield does not offer anywhere near the protection that a full mask does.  Common sense and the graphic I posted make that abundantly clear as does literally dozens and dozens of medical opinions.

 

Just because someone is doing it does not make it the correct--or safe--approach.  And frankly, if that is the protocol when cruising resumes in the US, I would not be sailing with virus levels anywhere near today.

[Spif Barwunkel]

38 minutes ago, Pinboy said:

Did You forget to mention "CALL OUT OTHER PASSENGERS AS WELL " ???

There's going to be more fights on board between " Mini Police " ( passengers  ) than you could imagine.

 ( I gave examples on several threads in the past).

Lawsuits will follow-- A punch in the mouth --- sue for $ 2.5 M -- settle for a FCC for $ 200 and complimentary laundry of bloody clothing.

No, Pinboy, I did not forget to mention "call out other passengers as well". The picture of waiters in face shields deserved attention to that detail only. Indeed, that PPE offers no protection to me or my food. And "call out" is probably a rather hard term, better said, approach with caution and civility.

 

Pinboy, you do bring up a valid and somewhat controversial point. Might be a good topic for you to begin a new thread. In order for future cruising endeavors to prosper, everyone must buy into the program thus ensuring success. Should cruisers become overseers of one another as well as monitoring behaviors of a ships crew? Are passengers obligated to take on additional responsibility rather than just enjoying a relaxing vacation? Too many scenarios to introduce here. It will certainly be a challenging row to hoe.   

[Von & John]

On 8/20/2020 at 5:59 AM, OceanCruise said:

If the rules were fully made clear before sailing I have no problem with this. However, I would not want to take a cruise with these draconian measures in place. Part of the fun of a cruise is exploring the ports on our own. I would also feel safer being with only my spouse walking around or using a private driver rather than being confined for hours with an entire group of people.

 

@OceanCruise - I believe the rules were clear, prior to sailing.  I read them in an article (possibly CC) @ the time of sailing & I hope that if we had the info available to us - that it would have also been shared w/ those cruising, as a condition of boarding.

 

We are in the we will wait to cruise phase.
We cruise for enjoyment & relaxation...
Neither the mask wearing nor the cruise line only excursion fit our vision of relaxation & enjoyment.

Hopefully the world will return to some semblance of normal & we'll find ourselves on a cruise again...

[Miaminice]

44 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Please do not make assumptions of my thoughts on this.  You, likewise, could be seen as on a mission, especially with your "if you don't like it, don't cruise with them."

 

My thoughts were simply that a face shield does not offer anywhere near the protection that a full mask does.  Common sense and the graphic I posted make that abundantly clear as does literally dozens and dozens of medical opinions.

 

Just because someone is doing it does not make it the correct--or safe--approach.  And frankly, if that is the protocol when cruising resumes in the US, I would not be sailing with virus levels anywhere near today.

I agree with you on the effect of the face shield! That’s not the point!

 

However, you and @mnocket stated that they are not following guidelines. They are! We might not like them, but they are followed. 

[Pinboy]

33 minutes ago, Spif Barwunkel said:

Might be a good topic for you to begin

LOL-- How about you start the new topic ?

I'm still trying to get over a topic I started a long time ago which was too controversial , didn't conform to the guidelines, insulted ( not on purpose ) some of the " regulars ", and was removed within a day.  

Now, I'm very careful , or, reasonably careful not to offend anyone.

Someone even told be " Bye Bye ", which in my language means -- oops, better not say it .

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Pinboy
spelling mistake

[Spif Barwunkel]

16 minutes ago, Pinboy said:

LOL-- How about you start the new topic ?

I'm still trying to get over a topic I started a long time ago which was too controversial , didn't conform to the guidelines, insulted ( not on purpose ) some of the " regulars ", and was removed within a day.  

Now, I'm very careful , or, reasonably careful not to offend anyone.

Someone even told be " Bye Bye ", which in my language means -- oops, better not say it .

 

 

Believe me, I know where you're coming from. How often do you read a post that deserves nothing more than a good wordsmith thrashing. It solicits, perhaps intentionally, an X rated response but you write it in a PG style. Still gets deleted. Just like cruising within the rules, we've got to write within the rules. Or, don't write at all.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Spif Barwunkel

[ECCruise]

23 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

I agree with you on the effect of the face shield! That’s not the point!

 

However, you and @mnocket stated that they are not following guidelines. They are! We might not like them, but they are followed. 

I guess probably some of the issue is semantics.

 

Their protocol is "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves".

I (and the vast majority of medical professionals) do not consider a shield a "mask."  Nor does the CDC:

CDC does not currently recommend use of face shields as a substitute for masks.

That is likely why I felt they weren't following their own protocols.  Which, like I said, could conceivably be tied to semantics if you take the rather unsupported view that shields are the same as masks.

[WonderMan3]

1 hour ago, Miaminice said:

Geez... another one on a mission.

 

In the hospitality business in Germany and Italy (we just returned from a week in italy today) the face shields shown and even smaller ones worn above the chin, barely over mouth and nose, are accepted. You (or I) might not like it, but that’s how it is. 
So they are not breaking any rules or any promise.

 

Don’t like it, don’t cruise with them - simple.

 

 

Guess that explains why I literally just watched a news story talking about how Germany and Spain just had their highest spike of cases since the spring.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/coronavirus-germany-spain-record-highest-daily-cases-since-april.html

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by WonderMan3

[tvnewsengineer]

As most can tell, I rarely post, but enjoy reading reviews, seeing photographs of the ships, reading about towel hogs on the pool deck, etc. But this thread is making me sad. I for one am very happy that MSC and TUI are sticking their toes in the water. Will everything be perfect, NO, will everything be wrong, NO. This thread went from... discussing MSC preventing violators from re-boarding because of breaking the social distance bubble. (I for one applaud them. The crew isolation prior to the cruise, the continued testing of the crew, the protocols being followed,  I'm OK with the shield because of those)....to i know better than you, why are they doing this, this is all wrong,  I wont be part of it...We all miss cruising or we would not be part of Cruise Critic, have cruise line links in our Favorites and know almost all of the worlds webcams. Just once during this pandemic can't we just celebrate with and say Thank you to MSC and Tui for doing what you are doing. The world is watching.

[Fouremco]

41 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

I guess probably some of the issue is semantics.

 

Their protocol is "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves".

I (and the vast majority of medical professionals) do not consider a shield a "mask."  Nor does the CDC:

CDC does not currently recommend use of face shields as a substitute for masks.

That is likely why I felt they weren't following their own protocols.  Which, like I said, could conceivably be tied to semantics if you take the rather unsupported view that shields are the same as masks.

No semantics at all, just plain English. If I were to say that I like water sports, such as scuba diving and snorkeling, that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy sailing and sea kayaking.  "Such as" is similar to "like" for introducing examples. The protocol does not say that crew members will all wear masks and gloves, only that they will wear protective equipment which might include those items.

 

If you want to argue the merits of shields versus masks, I'm on your side, masks are unquestionably safer for all concerned. But neither MSC nor Italian authorities happen to agree with us, so please accept the fact that MSC followed its protocols.

[mnocket]

2 hours ago, Miaminice said:

I agree with you on the effect of the face shield! That’s not the point!

 

However, you and @mnocket stated that they are not following guidelines. They are! We might not like them, but they are followed. 

 

So what are MSC's guidelines with regard to face masks and gloves?

[mnocket]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

No semantics at all, just plain English. If I were to say that I like water sports, such as scuba diving and snorkeling, that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy sailing and sea kayaking.  "Such as" is similar to "like" for introducing examples. The protocol does not say that crew members will all wear masks and gloves, only that they will wear protective equipment which might include those items.

 

If you want to argue the merits of shields versus masks, I'm on your side, masks are unquestionably safer for all concerned. But neither MSC nor Italian authorities happen to agree with us, so please accept the fact that MSC followed its protocols.

 

The issue, at least for me, is having accurate information about a cruise line's on board COVID protocols so that I can make an informed decision about whether or not to sail with them.  I thought I knew what "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves" meant. 

 

Now I'm being told by some that it doesn't mean all crew will wear face masks and gloves.  In fact it requires neither face masks nor gloves, and as such their practices don't violate their published protocols.  They say it only requires that all crew wear PPE - the exact nature of said PPE is not specified.  Supposedly, they don't need to wear gloves or face masks or even face shields, so long as they wear some form of PPE.  I guess wearing gloves and no face covering of any kind would meet this interpretation of MSCs  published protocol.

 

Now how am I supposed to make an informed decision about sailing on a cruise line if their published protocols don't even specifically address whether crew members will wear face masks or gloves?  I'm amazed that this is even controversial.

Edited August 21, 2020 by mnocket

[Baron Barracuda]

Having a chuckle.  Not too long ago many on this board scoffed at the idea that cruise lines would actually enforce face mask rules.  Lots of comparisons to not policing chair hogs.  Well, MSC has shown they are dead serious about their new healthcare rules and everyone had better toe the line.  Expect enforcement on other lines to be equally strict. 

[Gracie115]

On 8/19/2020 at 7:17 PM, Von & John said:

MSC Not Tolerating Violation of New C-19 Health Protocols

Let's hope by enforcing their new C-19 plan - MSC will complete a successful first voyage...

Family kicked off first Mediterranean cruise after violating new health protocols

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/family-kicked-off-first-mediterranean-cruise-after-violating-new-health-protocols/ar-BB18aj8M?li=BBnbklE

 

 

Good....

[Germancruiser]

Oh yes- we do have a spike of new infections- one that was predicted and expected- because of the return of those who went on holiday and some might have enough common sense to adhere to the rules or take precautions themselfes.

 

[llawrence]

I think we will have to wait two weeks to see if any passengers or crew come down with COVID....that is if they get tested.....I read on one CDC comment from a medical professional....that a required test after passengers return is the only true test of cruise ship spread... they would have to see a cluster with like dining.....group activities...etc.  that would assume that passengers were tested pre cruise....and all tested negative.

[npcl]

4 hours ago, WonderMan3 said:

 

Guess that explains why I literally just watched a news story talking about how Germany and Spain just had their highest spike of cases since the spring.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/coronavirus-germany-spain-record-highest-daily-cases-since-april.html

 

 

To put this in perspective Germany's daily number (7 day moving aver is 1287, up from their low this summer of 340.  Spain is currently at 3441, down from a recent peak of 4910.  Considering their populations German is 15.3 per million per day.  Spain is at 73.2 per million per day.  Italy (which is the home country of MSC) is up a bit at 555 per day which yields 9.25 per million per day.

 

Compared to the US at 46,589, down from the recent peak of 69,328, which is at 137 per million per day.  

 

If their policies are the cause for their numbers maybe we should just copy them.

[Shadow9612]

10 hours ago, Fouremco said:

 

Let's be very clear, nowhere in MSC's protocols that are published online does it state that crew members will wear masks. The actual wording is:

 

All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves

 

So face masks and gloves are examples only of the type of protective equipment that crew members might wear, not a list of compulsory equipment. If they wear a protective face shield instead of a mask, as in the photos shown previously, they are not in breach of the published protocols.

 

IMO, discussion here shouldn't be based on a (non-existent) breach of protocol but rather on the effectiveness of face shields. While I applaud MSC's protocols, I don't believe that the decision to allow the use of face shield reflects the general medical assessment of their ability to reduce possible transmission when compared to masks. The CDC, for example, does not recommend the use of shields as a substitute for masks, although it does state that wearing a mask might not be feasible in all cases and that in some situations wearing a shield would be appropriate. It would appear that MSC has decided that the waiters' use of face shields is appropriate.

While I agree with what you have posted@Fouremco, i feel that MSC should have used clearer wording which includes all possibilities.  

 

Honestly, I assumed based on their wording that face masks would be what they're using to cover their faces. I'd have been extremely upset and even felt deceived if the waiter arrived at my table with a shield, which clearly doesn't protect me.

 

If face shields are permitted, they should have said "such as face mask or face shield, gloves, etc."

[Shadow9612]

9 hours ago, Miaminice said:

In the hospitality business in Germany and Italy (we just returned from a week in italy today) the face shields shown and even smaller ones worn above the chin, barely over mouth and nose, are accepted. You (or I) might not like it, but that’s how it is. 
So they are not breaking any rules or any promise.

 

Don’t like it, don’t cruise with them - simple.

 

 

I agree,  but the consumer should receive clear information on what the policies are.

 

A face shield is not a face mask (IMHO).

 

If the policy is written as Fouremco quoted above, then that leaves room for misunderstanding.   Given the severity of the pandemic, the cruise line should go above and beyond to be clear in their writing so there's no confusion.

 

Then, the cruiser has all of the information to make an appropriate decision.

 

 

[Shadow9612]

5 hours ago, mnocket said:

 

The issue, at least for me, is having accurate information about a cruise line's on board COVID protocols so that I can make an informed decision about whether or not to sail with them.  I thought I knew what "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves" meant. 

 

Now I'm being told by some that it doesn't mean all crew will wear face masks and gloves.  In fact it requires neither face masks nor gloves, and as such their practices don't violate their published protocols.  They say it only requires that all crew wear PPE - the exact nature of said PPE is not specified.  Supposedly, they don't need to wear gloves or face masks or even face shields, so long as they wear some form of PPE.  I guess wearing gloves and no face covering of any kind would meet this interpretation of MSCs  published protocol.

 

Now how am I supposed to make an informed decision about sailing on a cruise line if their published protocols don't even specifically address whether crew members will wear face masks or gloves?  I'm amazed that this is even controversial.

exactly

[cheeseheads4ever]

I would have felt deceived as well. A face shield is not a face mask. May be PPE but really staff should all wear masks and gloves. Not rocket science here.

[wrk2cruise]

I wonder if the face shields are used in certain roles like waiters?   Like others I would expect the cruise lines to learn from these start up experiences and be more specific on what to expect.

[mayleeman]

58 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

I wonder if the face shields are used in certain roles like waiters?

 

If so, I think that would actually be the opposite of what passengers might have assumed from the PPE "such as" reassurance. I would not think their statement guaranteed universal mask use. But I would certainly have expected the more effective device (masks) to be used whenever a crew member was in constant close contact with pax, like a waiter.

 

Shields might be expected for cabin attendants, or for crew working behind the scenes. 

 

That picture appears to have been at a prep station. One waiter is wearing a mask, not a shield. Maybe it is left to each waiter's discretion. 

[rhblake]

How did this post get so far off the original statement of a family being removed from the cruise. I think this post needs to end and if everyone wants to debate face masks vs. shields start a new post.