Great Article on how Costa Cruises have Re-opened

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

By what's been happening in colleges it sure looks like young people will not only be not interested in a vaccine, but do not seem to care now about the simple preventative measures like masks and social distancing.

 

I wouldn't be quick to tag just the young. There are plenty of people in my community who are my age or older that complain about and do not abide by the social distancing and masking guidelines.

 

Our state government (which is not run by young people, I might point out) refuses to make it a requirement. But at least they have backed down from their earlier stance of not allowing local governments to require masks (in certain settings only).

 

Earlier in the summer our governor (who is 56) sued to stop the city of Atlanta from enforcing some of its coronavirus-related rules, including its mandate to wear a face covering in public, even though the state was experiencing a sharp rise in COVID cases.

 

Meanwhile my 28-year-old son has been "sheltering in place" at home with me since early March and I can tell you that neither of us has eaten at a restaurant (indoors or out), or gone to any bar or any social event in 7+ months. 

 

[cruisemom42]

 

Given the current upward trend of COVID cases in Europe, it may not be a matter of how successful Costa and MSC and TUI have been. The cruises may be closed down anyway as restrictions are re-imposed in many countries.

 

 

20 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 

Instead of cruising 100+ days a year we can easily transition to many more land days (probably renting apartments in some favorite European cities/towns) for the same or less money then a cruise.  After reading many of the excellent discussions here on CC I have finally reached the conclusion that there is no reasonable solution to mass market cruising without a safe/effective COVID vaccine.

 

Hank

 

I also have my doubts regarding how soon European countries will reopen for US tourists. I would love to plan a land trip to Italy in the spring, but I am not hopeful. 

 

 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I wouldn't be quick to tag just the young. There are plenty of people in my community who are my age or older that complain about and do not abide by the social distancing and masking guidelines.

 

Our state government (which is not run by young people, I might point out) refuses to make it a requirement. But at least they have backed down from their earlier stance of not allowing local governments to require masks (in certain settings only).

 

Earlier in the summer our governor (who is 56) sued to stop the city of Atlanta from enforcing some of its coronavirus-related rules, including its mandate to wear a face covering in public, even though the state was experiencing a sharp rise in COVID cases.

 

Meanwhile my 28-year-old son has been "sheltering in place" at home with me since early March and I can tell you that neither of us has eaten at a restaurant (indoors or out), or gone to any bar or any social event in 7+ months. 

 

I did not mean to single out young people, only to say the refusal to follow protocols seems prevalent among the young. And of course there are young people who do follow the protocols faithfully.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Given the current upward trend of COVID cases in Europe, it may not be a matter of how successful Costa and MSC and TUI have been. The cruises may be closed down anyway as restrictions are re-imposed in many countries.

 

 

 

I also have my doubts regarding how soon European countries will reopen for US tourists. I would love to plan a land trip to Italy in the spring, but I am not hopeful. 

 

 

You make a great point.  Fortunately for us, we do not need to do long range planning for land trips.  It is just a matter of booking air, arranging for a car (rent or lease), and booking our first few nights somewhere in Europe. We can do all this at the last minute.  But if Europe and Asia remain closed to tourism I guess we can have some fun in the lower 48 :).   We do spend a good part of our winters in Mexico and that is not going to change this year.  Fortunately, Mexico is one of the places still open to tourists.

 

Actually, my current thinking is that if we do take an extended spring driving trip in Europe we will likely not head into Italy.  Our focus would likely be France and the Czech Republic with Germany and possibly Austria also added to the mix.  But we sometimes do not plan ahead with driving trips and will often look to weather forecasts to help determine where to drive next.   So a drive from France to Prague could easily change to a drive through Italy to Croatia.  Having a car. decent cell phone and Internet access makes day to day travel as easy as it is here in the USA.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

You make a great point.  Fortunately for us, we do not need to do long range planning for land trips.  It is just a matter of booking air, arranging for a car (rent or lease), and booking our first few nights somewhere in Europe. We can do all this at the last minute. 

 

Hank

 

Also being retired, I'm guessing it wouldn't pose significant problems if you had to quarantine somewhere for 14 days if/when entering Europe. For me, that'd be a big problem as it would eat up most of the time I am allowed to take off at a time...

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Also being retired, I'm guessing it wouldn't pose significant problems if you had to quarantine somewhere for 14 days if/when entering Europe. For me, that'd be a big problem as it would eat up most of the time I am allowed to take off at a time...

That is not going to happen.  Being stuck in a hotel (at my own expense) for 2 weeks is not my idea of fun.  The ball is in their park.  We (and many others) and willing to travel, spend money, and boost the tourism sector if we are welcomed.  Dealing with COVID is a reality and we would certainly use common sense in how we deal with travel. 

 

Speaking of travel I find it interesting that many of our friends that live in Mexico during the winter (we are essentially snowbirds) plan on returning this winter despite a big COVID problem in Mexico.  Why?  Most feel they can use common sense to mitigate much of the COVID risk.  Yes, there will still be some risk but life is full of many risks.   At this point I am not convinced that a mass market cruise ship cannot sufficiently reduce COVID risk without destroying much of what we expect on a cruise.  On land it is a different story since there are many more options and we are not confined in a relatively compact controlled environment.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

And now there are reports of COVID trouble on Costa Diadema, including a positive case disembarked in Naples and the  decision to end a charter cruise early. All this amid questions of how transparent Costa has been about infections that occurred in passengers on their previous cruise just after disembarkation:

 

 

 

 

[iancal]

Does not matter to us.  We have zero intention of cruising, or even booking a cruise at the moment.

 

We expect to be doing a land vacation well before we consider another cruise.

 

 We can handle, and are prepared to accept,  some risk on land, but not captive on a petri dish like  MS Covid  floating about looking for a port.  No matter what cruise line.

Edited October 16, 2020 by iancal

[Hlitner]

As I predicted (before they started cruising in Europe) the panic is already starting.   Just read that the island/country of Malta refused to let anyone disembark from the MSC Grandiosa after its Captain reported a suspected case of COVID aboard the ship.   But, as I have previously warned, the problem will likely go way beyond this single incident.  What now happens to that ship and cruising in Europe?  In just the last couple of days there have been COVID issues with two cruise lines.  Despite all the precautions with testing and limiting the passengers to certain countries some cases of COVID have managed to get aboard.  The precautions used by the cruise lines are doomed to failure just like other mitigation efforts.  Yes, we can certainly cause some ripples in the spread of a virus by destroying the world economy.  But the virus will go where the virus wants to go and while our efforts will certainly slow down the spread it is questionable whether that will actually increase the length of time that the virus will continue to cause big problems.   By "flattening the curve" are we actually elongating the line?  Time will tell.

 

Hank

[HappyInVan]

On 10/16/2020 at 5:29 PM, Hlitner said:

By "flattening the curve" are we actually elongating the line?  Time will tell.

 

 

Over in British Columbia (pop 5m), we seem to be doing okay. Positivity rate 1-1.5%. Just 251 dead! The economy has not crashed. In fact, we never even had to lock down completely.

 

We do wear masks as we wait for better treatments and the vaccines.

 

Over in the States, Dr. Fauci says that he would like to see a baseline of 10k cases a day before the flu season starts. I wonder why he's worried???

[bouhunter]

On 10/14/2020 at 4:27 PM, Hlitner said:

I posted about this in another thread but will say it again.  We think the "rules" being practiced on Costa change what we would call a vacation cruise to a prisoner ship!   If there were no other travel options other then to take a cruise with all the new restrictions we would probably "suck it up" and take a short cruise.  However, there is a lot more to the travel world then cruises and with the kind of restrictions being imposed on Costa (and some other cruise lines now having limited European operations) we will simply avail ourselves of other opportunities.  Having cruised extensively since 1975 (far more then 1200 cruise days) my love of being on a cruise ship is not even a question.  When DW and I walk onto a ship we both feel like all the troubles of the world have been left behind and we are home!   But what is being suggested as how to operate cruises in a COVID world is just not acceptable to me.   We hope that these new restrictions are just temporary and things will move back to something close to normal once (if) there is a vaccine.  Otherwise I will talk about all the wonderful cruises we have taken while we are on extended land trips :).

 

Perhaps I can better express our feelings by explaining that we are not going to pay hundreds of dollars per passenger day to be a virtual prisoner on a ship.  It would not be much fun and apart from the wonderful experience of being at sea there would be little to attract me to that kind of voyage.  Instead of cruising 100+ days a year we can easily transition to many more land days (probably renting apartments in some favorite European cities/towns) for the same or less money then a cruise.  After reading many of the excellent discussions here on CC I have finally reached the conclusion that there is no reasonable solution to mass market cruising without a safe/effective COVID vaccine.

 

Hank

That's us too.  We've cruise a lot, but will not mask up for a highly restricted experience.  I wouldn't quite call them a prison ship,  until of course there are positive tests and they start locking people in their rooms again........

 

We've booked condo's etc for 10 weeks in Florida this winter and don't have a cruise booked until January 2022.  Wish it wasn't so, but for the foreseeable future we've moved on from cruising.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Over in British Columbia (pop 5m), we seem to be doing okay. Positivity rate 1-1.5%. Just 251 dead! The economy has not crashed. In fact, we never even had to lock down completely.

 

We do wear masks as we wait for better treatments and the vaccines.

 

Over in the States, Dr. Fauci says that he would like to see a baseline of 10k cases a day before the flu season starts. I wonder why he's worried???

No bigger fan of Canada them me and your country as well as New Zealand have done a terrific job handling this darn virus.  As to Dr. Fauci (I met the man back when I worked with HIV/AIDS programs) lost me when he publicly supported the idea that wearing masks was dangerous.  He later admitted that he was not sorry about that mask fiasco since it was in our best interests to keep PPE available for healthcare workers.  So he essentially said that if its in the best interests of healthcare workers it is fine to mislead the public?  Dr. Fauci also said (back in January) that COVID was "not a threat" to the USA.  Yes, things do change.  But why should we believe him now and not then?  So fool me once and shame on you but ..........

 

By the way, I have read that Canadians are very supportive of the WHO.  Just recently Dr. David Nabarro, WHO's special COVID envoy urged governments to "stop using lockdowns" as the primary means to control COVID.  Go figure.  There have been so many mixed messages about COVID that it stretches the credibility of many of the top experts.  

 

Hank

[OzCanuck]

31 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

No bigger fan of Canada them me and your country as well as New Zealand have done a terrific job handling this darn virus.  As to Dr. Fauci (I met the man back when I worked with HIV/AIDS programs) lost me when he publicly supported the idea that wearing masks was dangerous.  He later admitted that he was not sorry about that mask fiasco since it was in our best interests to keep PPE available for healthcare workers.  So he essentially said that if its in the best interests of healthcare workers it is fine to mislead the public?  Dr. Fauci also said (back in January) that COVID was "not a threat" to the USA.  Yes, things do change.  But why should we believe him now and not then?  So fool me once and shame on you but ..........

 

By the way, I have read that Canadians are very supportive of the WHO.  Just recently Dr. David Nabarro, WHO's special COVID envoy urged governments to "stop using lockdowns" as the primary means to control COVID.  Go figure.  There have been so many mixed messages about COVID that it stretches the credibility of many of the top experts.  

 

Hank

Well whatever you’re doing in the US it seems to be working, so keep it up!

[Lido - Lanai]

44 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

So fool me once and shame on you but ..........

Let us not forget, Christine Grady is Anthony Fauci’s wife. Her role seems to be to preside over the ethical questions of testing vaccines. This may present a conflict of interest. It does not inspire confidence given the questions surrounding Fauci and his involvement with the Wuhan lab.

[KirkNC]

22 minutes ago, OzCanuck said:

Well whatever you’re doing in the US it seems to be working, so keep it up!

thats a joke right?

[OzCanuck]

28 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

thats a joke right?

Sort of. A joke is funny. 

[Horizon chaser 1957]

On 10/16/2020 at 12:34 PM, iancal said:

 We can handle, and are prepared to accept,  some risk on land, but not captive on a petri dish like  MS Covid  floating about looking for a port.  No matter what cruise line.

 

 

IMHO, you have put your finger on the biggest issue regarding a return to cruising. The ports, and not just the cruise lines, need to have a firm, unwavering policy on what happens to a ship that has Covid aboard. Moving forward, casting a ship adrift until all aboard are infected is appalling and unacceptable.
Obviously, the smaller ports of call don’t have the infrastructure to care for a full shipload of passengers, and shouldn’t be expected to. However, the bigger embark/ debark ports that rake in the most profit from cruising do. Why is there no  requirement of responsibility for the passengers they checked in and loaded onto the ship in the first place? They should be required to allow ships in need of medical assistance to return to point of origin, and debark passengers to a quarantine facility at the very least.  They can’t just have their cake and eat it too.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Horizon chaser 1957

[HappyInVan]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Yes, things do change.  But why should we believe him now and not then? 

 

 

Don't just believe in Fauci, the man. Believe in the science behind Fauci. At this point, there seems to be universal agreement among the experts and analysts that social distancing and masks work, That extensive testing and contact tracing is necessary.

 

That the lockdown in March was necessary to break the pandemic's momentum. Though lockdowns are the nuclear option. A full program of testing, tracing and social restrictions can be sufficient.

 

That the coming season might be a big problem. See chart below.

 

The important question is whether governments have a plan and intend to implement it. New Zealand has demonstrated that commitment and has been rewarded.

 

Are you interested in how BC's plan works?

 

[iancal]

Seems to me that it is very easy to compare the results of those countries that had, and have, a coordinated, well devised plan, one that was implemented early and accepted by the populations  to those that did not.

 

The numbers have been telling the story since March.   As time has passed, the difference in those covid related stats have become even more apparent.  Unfortunately they seem to have had little impact.   

 

It is the same today.  Some countries that have done well are implementing or re-implementing policies to ensure that the second or third wave is controlled as much as possible.  Other countries are essentially doing nothing as is evidenced by their daily contraction, hospitalization, and death statistics.

 

Unfortunately for the travel industry, the longer that countries fail to effectively act and give  covid a free run, the longer it will take to open up the industry...even a little.  

 

Our numbers are increasing.  One reason is apparently an increase in social gatherings both number and attendance.   One church group alone has accounted for 100 plus cases.  Same with some weddings, familiy gatherings, and with some bars/restaurants that have failed to follow the regulations.

Edited October 18, 2020 by iancal

[Doubt It]

Well it is not working in Ontario and Quebec with the highest numbers ever.

 

What is interesting is a historical review of mask usage, articles and research before this virus. There was not universal agreement on the usage of masks for viral viruses due to particle size. The N95 was the best recommended at the time.

 

If masks are so great.......I then question the increasing hysteria about the flu - why would the flu be a problem if most are wearing masks? Even in high flu situations, there was no recommendation for universal wearing of masks.

 

Accept nothing and question everything.

[HappyInVan]

25 minutes ago, Doubt It said:

Accept nothing and question everything.

 

Of course, That's why I always starts with the facts. In 7 months, covid has reported killed 9,746 Canadians (so far). On the other hand...

 

“A total of 613 ICU admissions and 224 deaths were reported this season.”

 

“The highest proportion of deaths was reported among adults ≥ 65 years of age (66%).”

 

“Among the 1,352 pediatric hospitalized cases, a total of 271 (20%) ICU admissions and 10 (0.7%) deaths were reported.”

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/diseases-conditions/fluwatch/2018-2019/annual-report.html

 

Yes, I would definitely wear masks, and strongly recommend them.

 

 

 

[iancal]

So much of this seems to be about me rather than us.  Some people feel that their right to do and act however they want overrides public good.

 

Wearing a mask may not protect me from covid.  It may help.  But it certainly may stop me from spreading the virus if I am unfortunate enough to contract it.  Same for social distancing, etc.  My perspective is that it is not just about me, it is about all of us.   When I see these mass gatherings with no social distancing and no face masks I cringe.  For me, it is not about the integrity or the selfishness of the organizers but about the sheer ignorance and uncaring for others of those who choose to  attend.  Bars, sporting events, faith groups, whatever.  I believe that some of these people are being 'used' by those who have no sense of public morality.

Edited October 18, 2020 by iancal

[kazu]

4 hours ago, iancal said:

So much of this seems to be about me rather than us.  Some people feel that their right to do and act however they want overrides public good.

 

Wearing a mask may not protect me from covid.  It may help.  But it certainly may stop me from spreading the virus if I am unfortunate enough to contract it.  Same for social distancing, etc.  My perspective is that it is not just about me, it is about all of us.   When I see these mass gatherings with no social distancing and no face masks I cringe.  For me, it is not about the integrity or the selfishness of the organizers but about the sheer ignorance and uncaring for others of those who choose to  attend.  Bars, sporting events, faith groups, whatever.  I believe that some of these people are being 'used' by those who have no sense of public morality.

 

I totally agree with this.  We need to think about others and not just ourselves.

 

 

Let’s not take scientists to task nor twist words.  I am very grateful that Canada is following the science and this is the message they have been giving us.  Enjoy 🙂

 

 

[VintageGeo]

8 minutes ago, kazu said:

this is the message they have been giving us.  Enjoy 🙂

'nough said! Thank you.

 

[nocl]

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

No bigger fan of Canada them me and your country as well as New Zealand have done a terrific job handling this darn virus.  As to Dr. Fauci (I met the man back when I worked with HIV/AIDS programs) lost me when he publicly supported the idea that wearing masks was dangerous.  He later admitted that he was not sorry about that mask fiasco since it was in our best interests to keep PPE available for healthcare workers.  So he essentially said that if its in the best interests of healthcare workers it is fine to mislead the public?  Dr. Fauci also said (back in January) that COVID was "not a threat" to the USA.  Yes, things do change.  But why should we believe him now and not then?  So fool me once and shame on you but ..........

 

By the way, I have read that Canadians are very supportive of the WHO.  Just recently Dr. David Nabarro, WHO's special COVID envoy urged governments to "stop using lockdowns" as the primary means to control COVID.  Go figure.  There have been so many mixed messages about COVID that it stretches the credibility of many of the top experts.  

 

Hank

I do believe the context of the no threat included "at this time"  and "that is subject to change". The no threat was a small part of the entire statement.