Cruise without a vaccine

[ilikeanswers]

54 minutes ago, evandbob said:

As some cruise lines are teetering on survival, perhaps one of them can advertise a free cruise giveaway for anyone who doesn't care to use prevention or avoidance methods?  Let them all sail a ship one last time, no masks, no social distancing, no vax, nothing.

 

The line is going out of business anyway, so let the ship wander the middle of an ocean until everyone of the freedom loving hoax believers contracts the disease.  Then let it stay there as proof of what will happen to people if they refuse to use their brains - a modern day ghost ship.

 

So we don't harm any crew members, start with a minimal staffing, use every PPE available, have them 100% certifiably vaccinated, and remove them as the ship gets to its final target mid ocean.  Then operate it remotely, slow circles out of the shipping lanes, even let it drift in a doldrum.

 

I'm thinking it could sail at full passenger capacity with the absurd number of deniers we have in this country.  Oh yeah, I mean let's start with all those who proclaimed the virus will disappear after the election.

 

You know it would not surprise me if anti vaxers charted ships for their own private cruises to nowhere. It could become a whole new niche industry🙄. 

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

Now that we are so close to approved vaccines I've been wondering if cruise lines are simply going to wait out the pandemic. After all satisfying the CDC guidance will not be inexpensive or quick.

 

That is my belief. Maybe I am wrong, but waiting on the vaccine - and the commensurate reduction in logistics and financial risk to the lines - seem to reduce the need to speed back into operations than if a vaccine wasn't forthcoming.  

 

I believe many in the travel industry will try and follow the suggestion of QANTAS CEO, Alan Joyce and depend on the vaccine to initiate a return to more normal travel.  

[iancal]

I believe the writing is on the wall for proof of covid vaccinations.  At the very least for any international travel.

 

Has zero to do with what someone feels about it.   One or two airlines, cruise lines will start and it will become a competitive advantage that others cannot afford to ignore. At least for the next several years.  In the interim arguments for and against will be pointless.

 

I do not think that all the bleating, wringing of hands etc. will change this.  

 

Travelers will have two choices.  Have the vaccine and travel internationally at will.  Not have the vaccine and travel domestically.

Edited December 3, 2020 by iancal

[slidergirl]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:30 AM, ontheweb said:

There is one thing in your analysis I do not understand. You take anyone who has developed short term (for there is no long term yet) and make the assumption that the immunity will continue. At the same time you dismiss anyone who has lost immunity in the short term as "anecdotal". I see a contradiction there.

 

And if there is so much immunity as you claim, why are hospitals now being flooded with new cases and it seems almost every day a new high is reached in the death count?

I think I'm the only one who has written here about my experience with COVID, from start to antibody finish to continuing issues over 8 months.  And, my experience has been blown off by some as "anecdotal", especially when I talked about my antibodies going away after 2 months (confirmed with test).  Yes, it's one type of antibody, but it's the only type we can get easily now.  

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, evandbob said:

 

I'm thinking it could sail at full passenger capacity with the absurd number of deniers we have in this country.  Oh yeah, I mean let's start with all those who proclaimed the virus will disappear after the election.

i have wondered where the "it'll all be over after the election" folks went. Maybe they are waiting for the electoral college to make it official, even though some specifically referred to November 3rd.

[clo]

5 hours ago, evandbob said:

Oh yeah, I mean let's start with all those who proclaimed the virus will disappear after the election.

Do you make your living writing? This is super. Thanks.

[clo]

3 hours ago, iancal said:

Travelers will have two choices.  Have the vaccine and travel internationally at will.  Not have the vaccine and travel domestically.

I agree with you 100%.

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, iancal said:

I believe the writing is on the wall for proof of covid vaccinations.  At the very least for any international travel.

 

Has zero to do with what someone feels about it.   One or two airlines, cruise lines will start and it will become a competitive advantage that others cannot afford to ignore. At least for the next several years.  In the interim arguments for and against will be pointless.

 

I do not think that all the bleating, wringing of hands etc. will change this.  

 

Travelers will have two choices.  Have the vaccine and travel internationally at will.  Not have the vaccine and travel domestically.

 Precisely - while testing may still be indicated to make one cruise safe, the most important step in the larger picture is to stop contagion.  Testing shows how contagion is progressing, vaccine controls that contagion - isn’t that the real goal.

[clo]

4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 Testing shows how contagion is progressing, vaccine controls that contagion -

I was just watching the news and one of the reputable guys - Redfield, Fauci, ???? said that they don't yet have the data whether the vaccine will control contagion.

[cbr663]

13 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 Precisely - while testing may still be indicated to make one cruise safe, the most important step in the larger picture is to stop contagion.  Testing shows how contagion is progressing, vaccine controls that contagion - isn’t that the real goal.

 

My understanding is that the vaccines currently being rolled out are functional vaccines and that they reduce the severity of the viral impact.  The vaccines have not been tested to determine whether they prevent the spreading of the virus.

[navybankerteacher]

23 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

 

My understanding is that the vaccines currently being rolled out are functional vaccines and that they reduce the severity of the viral impact.  The vaccines have not been tested to determine whether they prevent the spreading of the virus.

True - but viruses need hosts to reproduce and continue spreading.  Even if the vaccines do not completely eradicate the virus in vaccinated people, the fact that they sufficiently limit them to minimize (if not completely prevent) symptoms, they will clearly limit the viruses’ capacity to spread — which will reduce transmission.

 

While testing is obviously important in letting us know what is happening - vaccination to limit the spread is essential unless we want “natural” immunity to be achieved by allowing everyone to be infected - and eithe die or recover with “earned” immunity.

 

So, yes - the vaccines will ultimately “...prevent the spreading of the virus.”

[evandbob]

Maybe cruise lines can have dedicated sailings for those who have been vaxxed or can provide proof of antibodies?

[cbr663]

6 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

True - but viruses need hosts to reproduce and continue spreading.  Even if the vaccines do not completely eradicate the virus in vaccinated people, the fact that they sufficiently limit them to minimize (if not completely prevent) symptoms, they will clearly limit the viruses’ capacity to spread — which will reduce transmission.

 

While testing is obviously important in letting us know what is happening - vaccination to limit the spread is essential unless we want “natural” immunity to be achieved by allowing everyone to be infected - and eithe die or recover with “earned” immunity.

 

So, yes - the vaccines will ultimately “...prevent the spreading of the virus.”

 

Reducing symptoms of the virus is not the same as reducing the viral load of the virus and it doesn't necessarily mean that it reduces transmission.  It isn't the severity of the symptoms that affect transmission of the virus, only that transmission seems to occur more easily in symptomatic individuals.  Limiting symptoms is not synoynmonous with limiting transmission.  If it were, asymptomatic people with COVID wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

 

 

 

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

Unfortunately you have simply ignored the salient point the previous poster highlighted and instead just re-stated in your own words the same unproven and potentially completely false assertions that other pro-vax people have done.

 

Let's iterate again.  The vaccines are there to protect the vaccinee from serious symptoms and hopefully to prevent them from dying.  That's it.  That's their primary purpose and I hope for the sake of all the vulnerable that they work in this respect.

 

Your assertions that the vaccine will "limit the viruses’ capacity to spread" and that this "will reduce transmission" is a baseless assumption at this stage.  The fact remains until proven otherwise that vaccinated people can and will still become Covid-positive and can and will therefore still be capable of spreading the virus to others.  

 

While ever that remains the case, vaccination is only of benefit to the person vaccinated.  personal protection to ensure that when they DO get the virus, they get no serious issues.

 

Your statement about herd immunity is also incorrect.  That route does NOT mean that EVERYONE becomes infected.  It means that the vulnerable should be shielded and in lockdown whilst the non-vulnerable are free to live normally and gain natural immunity.  Like it or not many many millions have already gone that route.   They now have good levels of immunity as a result and my belief is that many millions of them will rightly see no need whatsoever to get vaccinated.

 

The vaccines are not going to stop the spread of the virus.  Spreading will continue and should be allowed to do so amongst those whose chances of getting serious symptoms is miniscule.   The vulnerable can get vaccinated to maximise their chances against Covid as best they can though that still does not mean they are 100% protected.   They are going to have to take their chances one way or another.

 

 

You are right vaccines do not stop the spread of diseases that is why small pox is such a massive problem 😂

 

Herd Immunity

 

Vaccines Protect Your Community

Edited December 5, 2020 by ilikeanswers

[ontheweb]

6 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

You are right vaccines do not stop the spread of diseases that is why small pox is such a massive problem 😂

 

Herd Immunity

 

Vaccines Protect Your Community

And let us not forget polio. Luckily the anti-vaxxers were not around in the 1950s.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

And let us not forget polio. Luckily the anti-vaxxers were not around in the 1950s.

The refusal of some to accept - or even try to understand - the nature of contagion, the way vaccines convey immunity, and the benefits of limiting contagion by viruses by immunizing potential hosts (who are necessary to the continued existence of those viruses)  is simply PATHETIC.  No, these people do not see a different reality --- they could not comprehend ANY reality which does not conform to their imbedded ignorance.

 

Please -- stop feeding this clown -- do him a kindness:  ignore him.

[clo]

4 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

  ignore him.

A very pleasant time 🙂

[ilikeanswers]

9 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

The refusal of some to accept - or even try to understand - the nature of contagion, the way vaccines convey immunity, and the benefits of limiting contagion by viruses by immunizing potential hosts (who are necessary to the continued existence of those viruses)  is simply PATHETIC.  No, these people do not see a different reality --- they could not comprehend ANY reality which does not conform to their imbedded ignorance.

 

Please -- stop feeding this clown -- do him a kindness:  ignore him.

 

As another poster said responding is not about changing the poster's mind it is to make sure that anyone who comes across their posts is able to see another point of view. Though your comment does remind me  years ago I watched a reality show were they sent people who were natural holistic reject all modern medicine types to a rudimentary hospital in west Africa. After six months boy were they singing a different tune😆. Modern medicine didn't seem so bad after all😜.

[ontheweb]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:44 PM, slidergirl said:

I think I'm the only one who has written here about my experience with COVID, from start to antibody finish to continuing issues over 8 months.  And, my experience has been blown off by some as "anecdotal", especially when I talked about my antibodies going away after 2 months (confirmed with test).  Yes, it's one type of antibody, but it's the only type we can get easily now.  

I ran across this article today and thought you might find it interesting. (But of course those who "know" that everyone who has had the disease now has long term immunity and no consequences will dismiss it.)

 

Covid 'Long-Haulers' Need Medical Attention, Experts Urge (msn.com)

[slidergirl]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I ran across this article today and thought you might find it interesting. (But of course those who "know" that everyone who has had the disease now has long term immunity and no consequences will dismiss it.)

 

Covid 'Long-Haulers' Need Medical Attention, Experts Urge (msn.com)

Ontheweb - thank you so much for posting this.  It is indeed a frustrating stuggle to get acknowledgement and treatment for our lingering issues.  The group I belong to has had Zoom sessions with Dr. Fauci and others regarding our struggles.  Good to see we are finally getting some work done.

 

The "brain fog" is nasty - I'll go to do something, and I'll forget what I wanted to do.  I'll try to grab something that is not there.  I'll forget where I'm driving to.  I have notes posted around the house with things I need to remember.  Sucks, but at least I'm not dead. 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, slidergirl said:

Ontheweb - thank you so much for posting this.  It is indeed a frustrating stuggle to get acknowledgement and treatment for our lingering issues.  The group I belong to has had Zoom sessions with Dr. Fauci and others regarding our struggles.  Good to see we are finally getting some work done.

 

The "brain fog" is nasty - I'll go to do something, and I'll forget what I wanted to do.  I'll try to grab something that is not there.  I'll forget where I'm driving to.  I have notes posted around the house with things I need to remember.  Sucks, but at least I'm not dead. 

You're welcome. Hang in there. It must be so frustrating when you read the posters in here who just know that if you do not die from the virus the only long term effect is immunity.

[KnowTheScore]

2 hours ago, slidergirl said:

The "brain fog" is nasty - I'll go to do something, and I'll forget what I wanted to do.  I'll try to grab something that is not there.  I'll forget where I'm driving to.  I have notes posted around the house with things I need to remember.  Sucks, but at least I'm not dead. 

 

That sounds frustrating indeed.    Do you think it's wise to keep on driving with such problems?

[cbr663]

36 minutes ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

You are correct cbr as far as I know.

 

Ignoring the plethora of juvenile jibes and disparagements from the few here, those who are interested in making informed decisions will I'm sure note the various unknowns that still exist regarding the vaccines.

 

- we don't know how long vaccine-derived immunity lasts yet

- we don't know if a vaccinated person can still test Covid-positive or not

- we don't know if a vaccinated person can still carry and spread Covid to others

- we haven't yet seen the list of ingredients in the various vaccines to be able to assess them

- we don't know what the long term impacts or side effects of the vaccines are yet

 

It's also worth noting that as early as March there were 12 separate strains of SARS-COV-2 and scientists have since confirmed at least 30 strains.  Not much of this is being publicised in the media imo.

 

We already know that there are over 200 strains of Influenza and that Flu vaccines cover at most 3 or 4 strains which is why they are invariably poor in effectiveness.  It's difficult to predict which of the 200 strains will be the circulating ones months in advance of winter flu season.

 

If there are at least 30 unique strains of Covid now in existence then which strain or strains does each of the vaccines cover?   Do the people flocking to get their shots know or care?  I guess not and for the vulnerable I have much sympathy in that.   But really the manufacturers should be properly informing the public of the score on this one because if the vaccines only cover up to 3 strains out of the 30+ out there then that would presumably give some people more reason to be cautious about going back to "normal" life.

 

There's still so much information that needs to be known and proven to be able to make any kind of informed decision.

 

 

 

Thanks for this and I agree with your final comment - there is indeed still much information that needs to be known and proven.

 

That's not to say that I am critical of the vaccines.  A vaccine that lessens the symptoms is a great step forward in the fight against this virus.  The current vaccines though don't appear ( I use these words as they have never been tested for this) to block transmission of the virus.  And, as this is a cruising forum, then we need to accept that even post vaccines there will be COVID outbreaks on cruise ships.  The question remains, "How will cruise companies respond to these outbreaks?"  We simply don't know yet.

 

There is one thing I feel certain though - vaccinated or not, cruisers should not expect that they are returning to anything resembling "normal" cruising anytime soon.  

[2wheelin]

On 12/5/2020 at 1:30 PM, KnowTheScore said:

 

You are correct cbr as far as I know.

 

Ignoring the plethora of juvenile jibes and disparagements from the few here, those who are interested in making informed decisions will I'm sure note the various unknowns that still exist regarding the vaccines.

 

- we don't know how long vaccine-derived immunity lasts yet

- we don't know if a vaccinated person can still test Covid-positive or not

- we don't know if a vaccinated person can still carry and spread Covid to others

- we haven't yet seen the list of ingredients in the various vaccines to be able to assess them

- we don't know what the long term impacts or side effects of the vaccines are yet

 

It's also worth noting that as early as March there were 12 separate strains of SARS-COV-2 and scientists have since confirmed at least 30 strains.  Not much of this is being publicised in the media imo.

 

We already know that there are over 200 strains of Influenza and that Flu vaccines cover at most 3 or 4 strains which is why they are invariably poor in effectiveness.  It's difficult to predict which of the 200 strains will be the circulating ones months in advance of winter flu season.

 

If there are at least 30 unique strains of Covid now in existence then which strain or strains does each of the vaccines cover?   Do the people flocking to get their shots know or care?  I guess not and for the vulnerable I have much sympathy in that.   But really the manufacturers should be properly informing the public of the score on this one because if the vaccines only cover up to 3 strains out of the 30+ out there then that would presumably give some people more reason to be cautious about going back to "normal" life.

 

There's still so much information that needs to be known and proven to be able to make any kind of informed decision.

 

 

You may be correct in that we may be on the 200th influenza strain. That does not mean they are all active or that they are all possible in any given year. It is true though that it if highly (not conclusively) predictable each year which strains are most likely to be problematic and develop appropriate vaccines. Since vaccines are targeting 3-5 strains, it is pretty darn impressive that they are over 50% effective if there is a yearly possibility of all of the 200.

I am skeptical of your statement (it may be true but I am too tired right now to check) there are over 30 unique strains of Covid which would all have to have developed in the last year. In any case the vaccines are targeted to the element which remains unchanged with mutations.

[jtwind]

Just wait until the first person gets diagnosed as having the virus a few days after being vaccinated.  We all know it's going to happen.  Within a short matter of time, someone is going to get exposed shortly before getting vaccinated, get sick in a few days, and blame it on the vaccine.  For some, all logic and science will go down the drain, and folks will find some screwball news network that they can tune in to for confirmation of their wacky ideas.  And up will go the percentage of anti-vaxers.