For those who are booked, are you happy with the “mandatory” shore excursions?

[Ombud]

On my (now canceled) August Alaska cruise my 2 top picks were always only available through Princess.  No way that small ziplining company was going against their guaranteed payment

 

On my Spanish Passage TA I found 2 4×4 excursions that were only up to 7 including driver. So I was very satisfied with that. I found other small group excursions that also limited participants. So if ALL the excursions also limit #s, I'm very happy. Hate HATE being 1 of 25+

[Steelers36]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I generally take a mask with me when going outdoors and put it on when necessary. But, I do try to cross the street a lot to avoid being near other people.

Don't get hit by a vehicle with all those crossings. 😉

 

 

[spookyfudge]

Yes and they need to require mandatory vaccine on all passengers!

[ontheweb]

55 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

Don't get hit by a vehicle with all those crossings. 😉

 

 

I try to be very careful.😊 Also, often I just go out onto the shoulder.

[richsea]

22 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

How close are you to a stranger?  For how long?  I never wear a mask outdoors walking along a street.  Some do by personal observation, but not most.  I'll leave at that, but we could go into the pluses and minuses of mask effectiveness.  It is repeatedly stated that masks are for when you are not socially distanced.  I just don't see the issue for outdoor environments.

Guess you don’t have to walk in a major city. I could get away without it in my town, but not in NYC, or even some of the larger towns on Long Island. 
Saw an interesting fact in today’s paper, COVID daily death rate un the US, is now larger than 9/11 deaths. Though uncomfortable, I think it’s prudent to err on the side of caution.

Edited December 11, 2020 by richsea

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 12/9/2020 at 3:30 AM, Oulton Jim said:

Surely there is also a logistical challenge of huge proportion. Let's imagine a cruise ship of some 2000+ passengers berthing at a port and that the majority are on board anticipating a ship-organised list of excursions [assuming that current protocol continues]. Coaches may well be restricted to 20 per coach -so if you do the maths it becomes a logistical nightmare.....

 

On 12/9/2020 at 10:33 AM, sprinkles said:

Thank You Jim, for being the ONLY person to understand my post.  

 

Do not agree with the idea of a "logistical challenge."  Ships contract with local companies for tours.  They er designed to make local touring safe and ahem the stamp of approval from the cruise line.  The cruise line assumes some of the liability for any accidents or problems occurring on the tour.  With the new format - requiring anyone leaving the ship top be on a tour - passengers get a certified company following all the new rules; cruise line, CDC and local country, to insure compliance.  Tour buses will likely be half full to encourage social distancing.  Fewer passengers likely will opt to not leave on tours.  This is a no brainer if you think about it for more than one second.  Both the tour operator and the ship's crew on the tour will help to insure masks are worn and the tour does not go anywhere where there could be a high opportunity for contagion.  I wouldn't take non-sanctioned ship's tour in this era of COVID-19.  Will it cost more?  Most likely, just as the cruise itself will cost more and anything impacted by COVID-19 costs more. Not an issue for the vast majority of cruisers.

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 12/10/2020 at 11:33 AM, richsea said:

Inside or outside, if you’re in a group, you should wear a mask, should you not?

 

Wear the mask.  It protects you, your fellow passengers, and the locals you interact with.

[gmjc2]

28 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

 

Do not agree with the idea of a "logistical challenge."  Ships contract with local companies for tours.  They er designed to make local touring safe and ahem the stamp of approval from the cruise line.  The cruise line assumes some of the liability for any accidents or problems occurring on the tour.  With the new format - requiring anyone leaving the ship top be on a tour - passengers get a certified company following all the new rules; cruise line, CDC and local country, to insure compliance.  Tour buses will likely be half full to encourage social distancing.  Fewer passengers likely will opt to not leave on tours.  This is a no brainer if you think about it for more than one second.  Both the tour operator and the ship's crew on the tour will help to insure masks are worn and the tour does not go anywhere where there could be a high opportunity for contagion.  I wouldn't take non-sanctioned ship's tour in this era of COVID-19.  Will it cost more?  Most likely, just as the cruise itself will cost more and anything impacted by COVID-19 costs more. Not an issue for the vast majority of cruisers.

I think you may be minimizing this issue. If even only half of the passengers take a tour that means approx 1200 +  0n most ships. At 20 ( 50%) per bus that would be 60 buses all leaving and arriving in one or two waves. If more decided to tour it would be crazy!! Port time being only a few hours how would all be accommodated?

[nini]

27 minutes ago, gmjc2 said:

I think you may be minimizing this issue. If even only half of the passengers take a tour that means approx 1200 +  0n most ships. At 20 ( 50%) per bus that would be 60 buses all leaving and arriving in one or two waves. If more decided to tour it would be crazy!! Port time being only a few hours how would all be accommodated?

I  am not really sure that all can or will be accommodated. We prefer our private

excursions, due to it being more personal and much smaller groups.

[sprinkles]

2 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

I think you may be minimizing this issue. If even only half of the passengers take a tour that means approx 1200 +  0n most ships. At 20 ( 50%) per bus that would be 60 buses all leaving and arriving in one or two waves. If more decided to tour it would be crazy!! Port time being only a few hours how would all be accommodated?

I agree with you GMJ, the one thing I agree with ride-the-waves about is cruising is likely to become much more expensive.

 

When I started cruising 30 years ago, it was very expensive, but it was also very luxurious.  Most of us have watched the changes, as the ships became bigger, the basic cost was less, but the extra costs rose.  Yes you could still have luxury, but it had to be paid for.

 

Now they have these monster ships that they “might” not be allowed to fill anymore.  It might become an expensive “luxury” to disembark at a port.  Yikes.  Yes I’ll still go, I want to be back at sea.  It might not just be my only form of retirement travel anymore.

[Mike45LC]

I would be concerned about being required to stay with the shore excursion under threat of not being allowed to board the ship. 

 

I have been on tour excursions that have been too much exertion for us, and which we had to drop out from.  I have been on tours where a sudden bout of irritable bowel forced us to abandon the tour and isolate in a rest room.  I have been on a tour where my wife insisted on making a purchase from a street vendor and we lost the tour group during that purchase.  The consequences from these deviations were not onerous.  We weren't banned from the ship!

 

But these and similar situations will arise.  We need to think about them.

 

Me, I will wait until the vaccine has made these "Ship Excursion Only" rules superfluous.

 

[Potstech]

Was there a virus worldwide killing people at the time all the other situations occurred. Always remember that the Captain of a ship has authority over all trying to board the vessel. If the Captain says no permission to board you are put of luck.

[dog]

2 hours ago, Mike45LC said:

quote:”

I have been on tour excursions that have been too much exertion for us, and which we had to drop out ....”

 

Me, I will wait until the vaccine has made these "Ship Excursion Only" rules superfluous.”

 

I understand  your concerns. 
 

At his point Princess Cruises has not announced “ship only” or  “Mandatory Excursions” as OP references in the title of this thread. 
 

I will wait it out, as I expect many more changes & , rules to be announced over 2021 for travel. 
 

[gmjc2]

16 hours ago, Mike45LC said:

I would be concerned about being required to stay with the shore excursion under threat of not being allowed to board the ship. 

 

I have been on tour excursions that have been too much exertion for us, and which we had to drop out from.  I have been on tours where a sudden bout of irritable bowel forced us to abandon the tour and isolate in a rest room.  I have been on a tour where my wife insisted on making a purchase from a street vendor and we lost the tour group during that purchase.  The consequences from these deviations were not onerous.  We weren't banned from the ship!

 

But these and similar situations will arise.  We need to think about them.

 

Me, I will wait until the vaccine has made these "Ship Excursion Only" rules superfluous.

 

Understand your pain so to speak! I have Colitis and constantly worry about finding a restroom in a hurry. The thought of small tour buses terrifies me. I have to use only the large coaches with a bathroom. My husband is disabled and cannot walk fast or far so he would have to use a wheelchair/scooter or be left behind. Very problematic if shore excursions are mandatory

[Hlitner]

We would not book a cruise (with any line) to places of interest where there was a mandatory cruise excursion requirement to get off at the ports.  Bottom line for us is after more then 40 years of extensive cruising (on 6 continents) we seldom to ever take any cruise line excursion.  DW and I normally go off on our own using rental cars, trains, buses, and our feet.  The idea that we would be "safer" when part of a large group is ridiculous.  Fortunately for us, we are very comfortable independent travelers so we simply substitute other options instead of cruising.  Just returned from 9 days in Florida (Key West and Ft Myers Beach) where we simply flew to FLL, picked up a nice rental car, and went our merry way.  When Europe again opens to tourism we would just take a flight to somewhere in Europe, rent/lease a car and be on our way.  While we often take cruises in Europe that will be off our table until we are again able to do our own thing in ports.  It is the same in Asia where we generally do our own thing (or book small private tours) in most places.

 

The one exception for us is the Caribbean.  We have no problem booking MSC's Yacht Club for a Caribbean cruise even if they still have mandatory shore excursions.  That is because we would not even bother to get off the ship in those ports :).  Been there, done that for over 4 decades and we sure do not want to take an excursion on any Caribbean island.

 

Hank

[nini]

Unfortunately, it is not up to Princess, but the CDC and possibly the WHO

who will makes thee mandates. That is how threads like this are started.

 

Hank/ Hlitner is so very right on. As much as we LOVE  being on a cruise ship,

we would make alternate arrangements to enjoy countries of choice. And Hank

has also contributed many thoughts for some great itineraries for which I am grateful!

[donaldsc]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:14 AM, richsea said:

Guess you don’t have to walk in a major city. I could get away without it in my town, but not in NYC, or even some of the larger towns on Long Island. 
Saw an interesting fact in today’s paper, COVID daily death rate un the US, is now larger than 9/11 deaths. Though uncomfortable, I think it’s prudent to err on the side of caution.

 

Look at these numbers -

 

"United States has now recorded more COVID-19 deaths than the total number of Americans killed in combat during World War II, the bloodiest war in human history.  

According to the Department of Veterans Affairs, the US saw 291,557 battle deaths during WWII. As of Thursday evening, there have been 291,754 COVID-19 deaths in the US, based on data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. 

The coronavirus pandemic had killed more Americans than the Vietnam War by late April.

And by around mid-May, the US COVID-1The 9 death toll had already surpassed the combined number of Americans killed in battle in every major US war since 1945 – nearly 87,000. The number of Americans killed by COVID-19 is now equivalent to almost half of the total death toll in the Civil War — approximately 620,000 — which was the bloodiest war in American history.:"  

BTW - this does not count the people who died of other illnesses who could not get the proper hospital care because the hospitals were crowded w Covid patients.  This is probably at least a couple of hundred hundred thousand people.

DON

Edited December 12, 2020 by donaldsc

[caribill]

14 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 The idea that we would be "safer" when part of a large group is ridiculous. 

 

For many people, the ship's excursions would be safer as they are designed to prevent interaction between participants and people in the local population whose Covid-19 status is unknown.

 

Likewise, the local population is protected from interaction with tourists who, as far as the local population know, might have the virus.

 

And if I lived in a foreign cruise port, I would want to stay as far away as possible from tourists from the country with the most Covid-19 cases in the world with the highest number of Covid-19 related fatalities in the world.

 

The mandatory ship excursions I have read about for non-Princess cruise lines do not have large groups. If buses are used, they are at 50% or less capacity.

[Oulton Jim]

To my wife and I a cruise means this -

   you go to bed and next day wake up in a new country to explore.....

   'explore' meaning exactly that - to discover new places for oneself.....

   being tied to a predetermined 'tour' just hopping on and off a coach is not exploring.....

 We tend to visit museums/parks/sites of interest and cathedrals/churches...rarely to we find ourselves in hordes of tourists so our risk of 'cross-infection' is kept to a minimum level. 

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, Oulton Jim said:

To my wife and I a cruise means this -

   you go to bed and next day wake up in a new country to explore.....

   'explore' meaning exactly that - to discover new places for oneself.....

   being tied to a predetermined 'tour' just hopping on and off a coach is not exploring.....

 We tend to visit museums/parks/sites of interest and cathedrals/churches...rarely to we find ourselves in hordes of tourists so our risk of 'cross-infection' is kept to a minimum level. 

Very well said. Being married to an art teacher, I also get to see a lot of museums and cathedrals while ashore. One of our most unique experience while ashore was in Santorini. We got lost and stumbled upon a museum in a cave. We took the tour with the guide. There was one other couple so the guide did the tour in English and Greek. Afterwards we showed him our map from the ship and asked where we were on the map. He laughed and said we were off the map. He unsuccessfully tried to get us a cab, and when that did not work showed us a shortcut back.

 

Why even go to a new country or port if you are only going to see the scenery from the bus? And how many half full or less buses are they going to need if that is the only alternative to getting off the ship?

 

 

[Hlitner]

6 hours ago, caribill said:

 

For many people, the ship's excursions would be safer as they are designed to prevent interaction between participants and people in the local population whose Covid-19 status is unknown.

 

Likewise, the local population is protected from interaction with tourists who, as far as the local population know, might have the virus.

 

And if I lived in a foreign cruise port, I would want to stay as far away as possible from tourists from the country with the most Covid-19 cases in the world with the highest number of Covid-19 related fatalities in the world.

 

The mandatory ship excursions I have read about for non-Princess cruise lines do not have large groups. If buses are used, they are at 50% or less capacity.

Yes, in theory those excursions make sense.  But consider when DW and I go off on our own we are a group of only 2 persons, we have control over where we go, how we social distance, etc.  On a cruise ship excursion at 50% you have a group of 25-30 and go wherever the group goes.  Now take a look at the guidelines used throughout the world and show me where it is OK to be in a group of 30.  That would get you arrested in many jurisdictions.   I have no issue with those kind of cruise line excursions but personally want no part of it!    I should add that we have taken two trips (South Carolina in July and Florida last week) as a group of 2 and managed to follow all the social distancing rules, mask rules, etc.  And so far, knock on wood, we have stayed healthy.  Would we get on any ship using the CDC guidelines?  As much as we love to cruise (far more then 1200 days on cruises) and feel at home on any ship...there is no way we would gamble on a cruise until there is widespread use of vaccines and vaccinations are mandated for everyone on a ship.  Otherwise I think it is just too risky to be on a vessel.  How do I know this?  Just take a look at what has happened with the restart of cruising in Europe.  They followed very tough rules, had lots of testing, mandated shore excursions, etc.  And they had over 165 COVID cases (spread over nearly every cruise line that was operating) and the COVID numbers are likely much higher but has been kept very quiet by the cruise lines (and the cooperating Italian government).   What is interesting is that Hurtigruten, with relatively small vessels and very tough mitigation measures very quickly learned that it does not work.  They quickly shut down Hurtigruten but other lines went on with their operations (using similar or lesser measures that failed with Hurtigruten) and every line eventually had some COVID cases.  In several cases the number of cases was pretty bad such as on one particular German River cruise where about 2/3 of the passengers got COVID.  

 

The basis for restarting cruises without mandatory vaccination programs is that you can use testing to weed out COVID cases.  But the truth is that no existing test will detect COVID for the first few days after exposure which is actually the time of highest risk for cruise passengers since they would have traveled (with higher risk) to the ship.  Even if testing only missed 1/10 of 1% (the false negatives are actually a lot higher) it would almost guarantee that every cruise would have at least 1 COVID case slipping through their pre-cruise testing screens.   Just consider that any testing would miss 100% of the cases where somebody was exposed to COVID between home and port.

 

Even all this might be OK if they could simply quarantine the COVID cases onboard and let the cruise go on as normal for everyone else.  But it does not work that way.  Even a single COVID case means the cruise must end (or at least not go to any other port) and somebody has to pay to deal with all those other souls on the ship and figure out how to get them home without using any public transit (including airlines).  

 

Hank

 

 

[caribill]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Yes, in theory those excursions make sense.  But consider when DW and I go off on our own we are a group of only 2 persons, we have control over where we go, how we social distance, etc. 

 

Yes, but unless you walk everywhere when off on your own, you will be in close contact with others who might be contagious, whether it be in a cab with its driver or in a bus or train.

 

I also am not in favor of using these limited ship excursions, but I understand the rationale behind them.

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 12/13/2020 at 9:43 AM, Hlitner said:

Yes, in theory those excursions make sense.  But consider when DW and I go off on our own we are a group of only 2 persons, we have control over where we go, how we social distance, etc.  On a cruise ship excursion at 50% you have a group of 25-30 and go wherever the group goes.  Now take a look at the guidelines used throughout the world and show me where it is OK to be in a group of 30.  That would get you arrested in many jurisdictions.   I have no issue with those kind of cruise line excursions but personally want no part of it!    I should add that we have taken two trips (South Carolina in July and Florida last week) as a group of 2 and managed to follow all the social distancing rules, mask rules, etc.  And so far, knock on wood, we have stayed healthy.  Would we get on any ship using the CDC guidelines?  As much as we love to cruise (far more then 1200 days on cruises) and feel at home on any ship...there is no way we would gamble on a cruise until there is widespread use of vaccines and vaccinations are mandated for everyone on a ship.  Otherwise I think it is just too risky to be on a vessel.  How do I know this?  Just take a look at what has happened with the restart of cruising in Europe.  They followed very tough rules, had lots of testing, mandated shore excursions, etc.  And they had over 165 COVID cases (spread over nearly every cruise line that was operating) and the COVID numbers are likely much higher but has been kept very quiet by the cruise lines (and the cooperating Italian government).   What is interesting is that Hurtigruten, with relatively small vessels and very tough mitigation measures very quickly learned that it does not work.  They quickly shut down Hurtigruten but other lines went on with their operations (using similar or lesser measures that failed with Hurtigruten) and every line eventually had some COVID cases.  In several cases the number of cases was pretty bad such as on one particular German River cruise where about 2/3 of the passengers got COVID.  

 

The basis for restarting cruises without mandatory vaccination programs is that you can use testing to weed out COVID cases.  But the truth is that no existing test will detect COVID for the first few days after exposure which is actually the time of highest risk for cruise passengers since they would have traveled (with higher risk) to the ship.  Even if testing only missed 1/10 of 1% (the false negatives are actually a lot higher) it would almost guarantee that every cruise would have at least 1 COVID case slipping through their pre-cruise testing screens.   Just consider that any testing would miss 100% of the cases where somebody was exposed to COVID between home and port.

 

Even all this might be OK if they could simply quarantine the COVID cases onboard and let the cruise go on as normal for everyone else.  But it does not work that way.  Even a single COVID case means the cruise must end (or at least not go to any other port) and somebody has to pay to deal with all those other souls on the ship and figure out how to get them home without using any public transit (including airlines).  

 

Hank

 

 

 

You make some good points - except for your "small group" scenario.  COVID-19 transmission is a two-way street.  For cruising and port visits, the local government is interested in protecting their citizens in addition to making sure day tourists are COVID-free (as much as possible) and don't infect locals.  Current thinking is that groups of 20 or less are manageable both from a ship's perspective and local governments'.  The local tour guide and the ship's representative on the tour can guide activities and contacts and report back any incidents inconsistent with both cruise lines and local guidelines.  

 

This is not just about you.  This is about everyone involved.  Mask wearing is not just to protect the wearer, but to protect everyone.

[Hlitner]

41 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

You make some good points - except for your "small group" scenario.  COVID-19 transmission is a two-way street.  For cruising and port visits, the local government is interested in protecting their citizens in addition to making sure day tourists are COVID-free (as much as possible) and don't infect locals.  Current thinking is that groups of 20 or less are manageable both from a ship's perspective and local governments'.  The local tour guide and the ship's representative on the tour can guide activities and contacts and report back any incidents inconsistent with both cruise lines and local guidelines.  

 

This is not just about you.  This is about everyone involved.  Mask wearing is not just to protect the wearer, but to protect everyone.

DW and I do wear masks (when social distancing is not possible) and we actually wear either N95 or KN95 masks since most other materials are not nearly as effective.   In fact one of the big "cons" was when the CDC decided to push any mask....even simple single layer bandanas (now banned by the airlines).  They apparently did this to help preserve the supply of good masks for healthcare workers but it was still a big lie that any mask is OK.  

 

As to "current thinking" about excursions we should keep in mind that cruise ship excursions are generally overpriced and a nice profit center for the cruise lines (which take a cut).  But we have been very independent world travelers for over 50 years and will leave excursions to those who love to be led by the nose on their travels.   It is not our style.  So far we have taken two post COVID trips and have been very careful (in ways that a group of 20+ cannot be careful) or perhaps we are just lucky.  We are soon off to Mexico (where we live in the winter) and will again work hard at avoiding group situations (which will really crimp our social life).   I would agree that if cruise lines adopt a mandatory vaccination requirement (where every soul aboard has to be vaccinated a few weeks prior to the cruise) then those excursions would be a safe option.  But simply cramming 20-30 cruise ship souls together on a tour, when some of those folks could actually be spreading COVID, is not my idea of safety.  Testing is not good enough to keep COVID off ships (Europe proved that) so in my little mind putting folks into groups for tours, when one or more of those folks might have COVID, is not a wise decision.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

Just now, Hlitner said:

DW and I do wear masks (when social distancing is not possible) and we actually wear either N95 or KN95 masks since most other materials are not nearly as effective.   In fact one of the big "cons" was when the CDC decided to push any mask....even simple single layer bandanas (now banned by the airlines).  They apparently did this to help preserve the supply of good masks for healthcare workers but it was still a big lie that any mask is OK.  

 

As to "current thinking" about excursions we should keep in mind that cruise ship excursions are generally overpriced and a nice profit center for the cruise lines (which take a cut).  But we have been very independent world travelers for over 50 years and will leave excursions to those who love to be led by the nose on their travels.   It is not our style.  So far we have taken two post COVID trips and have been very careful (in ways that a group of 20+ cannot be careful) or perhaps we are just lucky.  We are soon off to Mexico (where we live in the winter) and will again work hard at avoiding group situations (which will really crimp our social life).   I would agree that if cruise lines adopt a mandatory vaccination requirement (where every soul aboard has to be vaccinated a few weeks prior to the cruise) then those excursions would be a safe option.  But simply cramming 20-30 cruise ship souls together on a tour, when some of those folks could actually be spreading COVID, is not my idea of safety.  Testing is not good enough to keep COVID off ships (Europe proved that) so in my little mind putting folks into groups for tours, when one or more of those folks might have COVID, is not a wise decision.  I might add that the bus drivers and local tour guides, although they may have been tested, would also be a high risk until they are vaccinated.  I keep pointing out that testing does nothing to detect COVID for the first few days (up to about a week) after exposure.   The world has been sold a bill of goods about testing which, which although great to provide needed statistics, are not even close to a guarantee whether a person has COVID.

 

Hank