US Fed travel Mask Order ..announced today

[ldubs]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:58 AM, pumpkin 11 said:

I guess so. I know a lot of people waiting to cruise until masks aren't required. Again, if masks work why don't they work? 

 

In my case it isn't because I think masks don't provide a level of protection.  It is because I would not enjoy a cruise if I had to mask up.  

 

Anyway, I wonder if the EO applies to postal workers.  I see a lot of those guys/gals walking into places with no masks.     

[evandbob]

After 9/11, our security forces said they could be right 99% of the time and yet one mistake on their part could result in another terror attack succeeding.

 

Same thing with trying to avoid COVID.  How many mask wearers touch the outside of their mask to adjust the fit or lower it to talk?  The virus can navigate from the mask covering to their fingers.  How many let it slip below their nostrils? 

 

How many crowd together while wearing masks thinking they are protected?  How many don't wash or replace their mask as needed?

 

Look, we all have COVID fatigue, it's hard on the body and mind to stay alert all the time and it's so easy to let our guard down.  But all it takes is to be wrong one time.........

[4774Papa]

58 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

The next issue is going to be what kind of mask, as Europe starts moving away from the cloth masks we have all been mostly using.  Lufthansa just announced they will be banning cloth masks, and several European countries are urging other alternatives.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cloth+masks&rlz=1CAWOMZ_enUS757US757&sxsrf=ALeKk02LJ-LuYmKyb4xNBH4rMFaHz01ovA:1611335786772&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiQpbzJhbDuAhUtJTQIHfrpDDgQ_AUoA3oECCIQBQ&biw=1200&bih=631

 

Checking Amazon, hepa filtered masks range from $7 to more than $60.   I suppose the airlines will provide the specifications for us.  Perhaps they will even provide the masks?

 

 

[BoozinCroozin]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:57 AM, hcat said:

Guess we'll be  cruising with our masks from US Ports..until lifted or revised????

Only while in US waters. Once in international waters, no US mandate can be maintained legally. However, cruises are probably not happening this year without mandatory vaccines for everyone onboard.

[Joebucks]

22 hours ago, clo said:

The bars around here sure do enforce it. Along with reservations, 25% capacity. And the enforcement would come down on the owner of the bar. So, you bet, they enforce it.

 

"Enforced masks at a bar" is still a loose definition. Most bars require it if you are standing. Even then, if you think every person who has stood at a bar has had a mask, I laugh at that. We also know when people are sitting, eating, drinking, etc, they are not masked. Sure you can say these measures "prevent the spread", but at the end of the day, think about how a virus acts. More political theater. 

 

On 1/21/2021 at 11:58 AM, pumpkin 11 said:

I guess so. I know a lot of people waiting to cruise until masks aren't required. Again, if masks work why don't they work? 

 

Honestly, I don't know anyone personally who has masks even in their top 5 list of reasons why they won't cruise. I know in my group of friends and cruising buddies, we would sail tomorrow and wouldn't think twice about it if that was the only thing to worry about.

 

Canceled cruises, quarantines, lack of amenities, lack of port freedom, mandated testing/vaccines, getting sick/needing icu care, etc make masking an insignificant worry. There are many of us still living life to the best of our ability without worrying how the mask ruins it for us.

[clo]

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

"Enforced masks at a bar" is still a loose definition. Most bars require it if you are standing. Even then, if you think every person who has stood at a bar has had a mask, I laugh at that. We also know when people are sitting, eating, drinking, etc, they are not masked. Sure you can say these measures "prevent the spread", but at the end of the day, think about how a virus acts. More political theater. 

 

Okay, let's see. Our bars don't allow people to stand. Once you leave the bar or table, it's sanitized. The signs are clear that you need to wear a mask when not "actively eating or drinking." If you walk in without a reservation and they've reached capacity you can't stay. I guess I'll add Ohio to the list of places I won't be visiting.

[Toofarfromthesea]

27 minutes ago, clo said:

Okay, let's see. Our bars don't allow people to stand. Once you leave the bar or table, it's sanitized. The signs are clear that you need to wear a mask when not "actively eating or drinking." If you walk in without a reservation and they've reached capacity you can't stay. I guess I'll add Ohio to the list of places I won't be visiting.

 

In December, contact tracing showed that less than 2% of covid infections stemmed from bars and over 70% stemmed from home transmission.  To quote Gov. Cuomo:

 

During a coronavirus press briefing on Friday, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said that private gatherings account for the vast majority of new statewide cases, while less than 2 percent are coming from bars and restaurants.

Cuomo referenced a statewide contact-tracing data set, which collected information on how new cases have spread from September to November. According to the data, 74 percent of new cases have come from private social gatherings.

"The troubling information in this is that 74 percent of new cases are coming from household gatherings and living room spread," Cuomo said. "In many ways, you can understand what happened. You close bars, you close restaurants, you close theaters, you close stadiums, you close mass gatherings. So where do people go? They go home."

Newsweek link

Edited January 23, 2021 by Toofarfromthesea

[Hlitner]

Unfortunately, the mask issue has taken on connotations that go beyond the basic idea of simply wearing a mask.   Forcing folks to wear masks has not worked out as well as public health officials envisioned.   Many of the mask materials are near worthless at stopping anything but bird poop.  And even if you have a decent mask (i.e. N95, KN95, surgical mask, etc) most folks do not fit them properly and wear them as designed (always covering both nose and mouth).  Here in Puerto Vallarta there are government mandated mask rules oft ignored.  Folks must always wear a mask while on public transportation and many people use our local buses.  Watch a bus go by and you will quickly realize that the majority of folks have their masks below their nose.  We have also routinely seen this in the USA.  While a supermarket might require everyone to wear a mask nobody is forcing folks to cover both their mouth and nose!  

 

So, while it sounds good to tell folks to wear masks, until folks are forced to wear decent masks properly it is a hollow order.   If masks are required on future cruises will there be any enforcement?  Ships cannot even enforce "no reserving of deck chairs" and they are certainly not going to enforce proper mask wearing.  Can anyone honestly think that a crew member is going to walk up to a passenger and tell them to "pull that mask over your nose!"

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

6 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

In December, contact tracing showed that less than 2% of covid infections stemmed from bars and over 70% stemmed from home transmission.  To quote Gov. Cuomo:

 

During a coronavirus press briefing on Friday, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said that private gatherings account for the vast majority of new statewide cases, while less than 2 percent are coming from bars and restaurants.

Cuomo referenced a statewide contact-tracing data set, which collected information on how new cases have spread from September to November. According to the data, 74 percent of new cases have come from private social gatherings.

"The troubling information in this is that 74 percent of new cases are coming from household gatherings and living room spread," Cuomo said. "In many ways, you can understand what happened. You close bars, you close restaurants, you close theaters, you close stadiums, you close mass gatherings. So where do people go? They go home."

Newsweek link

It is not just Governor Cuomo who issues ridiculous orders (such as forcing folks with COVID back into nursing homes).  Here in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico (our winter home) we have a current lockdown where the Governor has ordered the beaches closed at 3pm.  This means that folks who are social distancing on an expansive beach (with lots of healthy air flow) are forced back inside bars/restaurants and other buildings that are not nearly as safe as the beach.  And if one wants to relax outdoors in one of our local parks....they have also been closed (parks in NYC were also closed at one point of the pandemic).    So while all the real science supports getting folks outdoors the politicians keep forcing folks back inside!   Go figure.

 

Hank

[Aquahound]

Other than the cruise piece, this federal mandate is much ado about nothing.  Masks have been mandatory on planes, busses, trains, ferries, and federal inside buildings since last summer.  I know because I work in a federal building, have flown all through COVID, and I ride a ferry to work.  This mandate is just putting a Band-Aid on a wound that has already scabbed over.  Plus, with courthouse COVID restrictions and high thresholds for case acceptance, US attorneys aren't likely to take these case right now anyways.  

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 

 

So, while it sounds good to tell folks to wear masks, until folks are forced to wear decent masks properly it is a hollow order.   If masks are required on future cruises will there be any enforcement?  Ships cannot even enforce "no reserving of deck chairs" and they are certainly not going to enforce proper mask wearing.  Can anyone honestly think that a crew member is going to walk up to a passenger and tell them to "pull that mask over your nose!"

 

 

No, make that a resounding NO to whether crew members will tell passengers to cover their noses.

 

We have had mandatory mask wearing in stores here since almost the beginning of this crisis. Our summer visitors, who are mostly of a certain religious sect, would go into stores without their noses covered, and by the time they left, they would barely have their chins covered.

[donaldsc]

It also depends upon the type of mask that you wear.  This is the abstract from 2 papers that compares the efficacy of different types of masks.  If you just want to skim the abstracts, I have highlighted the important parts of the abstracts --

 

"Mandates for mask use in public during the recent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, worsened by global shortage of commercial supplies, have led to widespread use of homemade masks and mask alternatives. It is assumed that wearing such masks reduces the likelihood for an infected person to spread the disease, but many of these mask designs have not been tested in practice. We have demonstrated a simple optical measurement method to evaluate the efficacy of masks to reduce the transmission of respiratory droplets during regular speech. In proof-of-principle studies, we compared a variety of commonly available mask types and observed that some mask types approach the performance of standard surgical masks, while some mask alternatives, such as neck gaiters or bandanas, offer very little protection. Our measurement setup is inexpensive and can be built and operated by nonexperts, allowing for rapid evaluation of mask performance during speech, sneezing, or coughing."

 

This is a link to the full paper - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7467698/ - which is sort of long and a bit technical.  

 

Here is an abstract from another paper

 

"Various types of face masks available to the general public are worn for protection against inhalation of dust, pollutants, allergens, and pathogenic organisms. Recent news stories have illustrated the widespread use of face masks for protection against Swine flu (H1N1), Severe Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (SARS), Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI) virus outbreaks in Asia, and dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center. However, the level of protection provided by face masks is unknown. The objective of this study was to determine how efficiently face masks prevent respiratory exposure to potentially harmful aerosols. Three types of commonly available face masks were tested: a surgical mask, a pre-shaped dust mask, and a bandana. An N95 respirator was tested as the positive control. Masks were fit onto a Styrofoam™ mannequin head modified with a 5/8-inch diameter sample probe that was placed inside a 147.5 liter test plenum; a 5/8-inch diameter reference probe was positioned next to the mannequin head. Saline aerosols were generated in the test plenum using an IV HEART™ (Westmed, Inc., Tucson, AZ) nebulizer. Each face mask was challenged for 30 minutes. Filter samples were collected simultaneously from the mannequin and reference sample probes and used to calculate aerosol concentrations. The mannequin sample probe and the reference sample probe volumetric flow rates were 8.75 L/min and 1.72 L/min, respectively. The mean challenge aerosol concentration, determined from the reference sample probe, was 0.045 ± 0.008 mg/L with a mass median aerodynamic particle size of 1.6 μm. Face mask protective efficiency was calculated as the ratio of mannequin sample probe concentration to reference sample probe concentration. The protective efficiencies were 33.3%, 11.3%, and 6.1% for the surgical, bandana, and dust masks, respectively. The N95 mask protective efficiency was 89.6%. In conclusion, the surgical mask protected the best of the three face masks tested. However, it is important to note that all three masks offer very little protection when compared to the N95, and wearing these face masks may produce a false sense of protection.

 

The bottom line is that the type of masks that most people seem to wear are nearly useless.  

 

DON

Edited January 23, 2021 by donaldsc

[Toofarfromthesea]

58 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

No, make that a resounding NO to whether crew members will tell passengers to cover their noses.

 

We have had mandatory mask wearing in stores here since almost the beginning of this crisis. Our summer visitors, who are mostly of a certain religious sect, would go into stores without their noses covered, and by the time they left, they would barely have their chins covered.

 

Just because you don't name the group doesn't mean you aren't engaged in religious bigotry.  Particularly when it is completely gratuitous and really has nothing to do with your point.  You could have left out the bolded portion and it wouldn't have changed your point one bit.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Toofarfromthesea
clarity

[ontheweb]

9 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Just because you don't name the group doesn't mean you aren't engaged in religious bigotry.  Particularly when it is completely gratuitous and really has nothing to do with your point.  You could have left out the bolded portion and it wouldn't have changed your point one bit.

And it is the same group that brought about Governor Cuomo and the state legislature (being upheld by the highest court in the state) doing away with the religious exemption for the measles shot after they caused an outbreak of measles.

 

A young child who is our son's Godson in all but formal name should have been able to use the allowed medical exemption as he has a compromised immune system. However, his parents decided that not getting the shot was even more dangerous when measles were spreading.

 

If you have a problem with the TRUTH, that is your problem, not mine.

[cl.klink]

3 hours ago, donaldsc said:

It also depends upon the type of mask that you wear.  This is the abstract from 2 papers that compares the efficacy of different types of masks.  If you just want to skim the abstracts, I have highlighted the important parts of the abstracts --

 

"Mandates for mask use in public during the recent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, worsened by global shortage of commercial supplies, have led to widespread use of homemade masks and mask alternatives. It is assumed that wearing such masks reduces the likelihood for an infected person to spread the disease, but many of these mask designs have not been tested in practice. We have demonstrated a simple optical measurement method to evaluate the efficacy of masks to reduce the transmission of respiratory droplets during regular speech. In proof-of-principle studies, we compared a variety of commonly available mask types and observed that some mask types approach the performance of standard surgical masks, while some mask alternatives, such as neck gaiters or bandanas, offer very little protection. Our measurement setup is inexpensive and can be built and operated by nonexperts, allowing for rapid evaluation of mask performance during speech, sneezing, or coughing."

 

This is a link to the full paper - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7467698/ - which is sort of long and a bit technical.  

 

Here is an abstract from another paper

 

"Various types of face masks available to the general public are worn for protection against inhalation of dust, pollutants, allergens, and pathogenic organisms. Recent news stories have illustrated the widespread use of face masks for protection against Swine flu (H1N1), Severe Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (SARS), Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI) virus outbreaks in Asia, and dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center. However, the level of protection provided by face masks is unknown. The objective of this study was to determine how efficiently face masks prevent respiratory exposure to potentially harmful aerosols. Three types of commonly available face masks were tested: a surgical mask, a pre-shaped dust mask, and a bandana. An N95 respirator was tested as the positive control. Masks were fit onto a Styrofoam™ mannequin head modified with a 5/8-inch diameter sample probe that was placed inside a 147.5 liter test plenum; a 5/8-inch diameter reference probe was positioned next to the mannequin head. Saline aerosols were generated in the test plenum using an IV HEART™ (Westmed, Inc., Tucson, AZ) nebulizer. Each face mask was challenged for 30 minutes. Filter samples were collected simultaneously from the mannequin and reference sample probes and used to calculate aerosol concentrations. The mannequin sample probe and the reference sample probe volumetric flow rates were 8.75 L/min and 1.72 L/min, respectively. The mean challenge aerosol concentration, determined from the reference sample probe, was 0.045 ± 0.008 mg/L with a mass median aerodynamic particle size of 1.6 μm. Face mask protective efficiency was calculated as the ratio of mannequin sample probe concentration to reference sample probe concentration. The protective efficiencies were 33.3%, 11.3%, and 6.1% for the surgical, bandana, and dust masks, respectively. The N95 mask protective efficiency was 89.6%. In conclusion, the surgical mask protected the best of the three face masks tested. However, it is important to note that all three masks offer very little protection when compared to the N95, and wearing these face masks may produce a false sense of protection.

 

The bottom line is that the type of masks that most people seem to wear are nearly useless.  

 

DON

 

Thanks for gathering this information.

 

- Joel

[ldubs]

On 1/23/2021 at 2:23 PM, ontheweb said:

And it is the same group that brought about Governor Cuomo and the state legislature (being upheld by the highest court in the state) doing away with the religious exemption for the measles shot after they caused an outbreak of measles.

 

A young child who is our son's Godson in all but formal name should have been able to use the allowed medical exemption as he has a compromised immune system. However, his parents decided that not getting the shot was even more dangerous when measles were spreading.

 

If you have a problem with the TRUTH, that is your problem, not mine.

 

PC trumps everything.  

Edited January 29, 2021 by ldubs

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:58 AM, pumpkin 11 said:

I guess so. I know a lot of people waiting to cruise until masks aren't required. Again, if masks work why don't they work? 

You know why...  Because there are those who don't wear, masks even in places where they are required by state or city directive, permitting the transmission of the COVID-19 virus.  Last Sunday in a Publix grocery store - we shop Sunday AM for the reduced number of patrons - a 30ish couple, she 7-plus month pregnant and he spouting anti-mask propaganda, were both maskless at the checkout counter.  That is why we are still fighting this pandemic, and why people are dying.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Ride-The-Waves

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 1/23/2021 at 4:12 PM, ontheweb said:

No, make that a resounding NO to whether crew members will tell passengers to cover their noses.

 

We have had mandatory mask wearing in stores here since almost the beginning of this crisis. Our summer visitors, who are mostly of a certain religious sect, would go into stores without their noses covered, and by the time they left, they would barely have their chins covered.

They will be reported to the captain/master and he/she will put them ashore at the first available opportunity.  Anyone who thinks that a cruise line will flaunt CDC requirements and an EO and still believe they would be permitted to moor in a US port is woofing up the wrong tree.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Ride-The-Waves

[Ride-The-Waves]

I still don't get the reticence for wearing something which protects both the wearer and those around the wearer.  Makes no sense.  

[clo]

13 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

On 1/21/2021 at 8:58 AM, pumpkin 11 said:

 

You know why...  Because there are those who don't wear, masks even in places where they are required by state or city directive, permitting the transmission of the COVID-19 virus.

I wish there were some emojis here. Cause I'd do something like arghhhhhhh.  We were in Costco the other day and had a couple heading toward us. His mask was around his neck and hers was a scarf under her nose to begin and then completely down. I didn't say a word but just pointed to my mask. He raced up to me and did 'fake' coughs right in my face.

[clo]

3 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

They will be reported to the captain/master and he/she will put them ashore at the first available opportunity.  Anyone who thinks that a cruise line will flaunt CDC requirements and an EO and still believe they would be permitted to moor in a US port is woofing up the wrong tree.

I WANT that to be the case. But will the passenger-jerk denies it will the powers that be bow to him.

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 1/22/2021 at 12:52 PM, ldubs said:

 

In my case it isn't because I think masks don't provide a level of protection.  It is because I would not enjoy a cruise if I had to mask up.  

 

Anyway, I wonder if the EO applies to postal workers.  I see a lot of those guys/gals walking into places with no masks.     

It will.  My post office several weeks ago all the employees wearing masks.  Customers as well, except for one old geezer who knew better.  What the EO does is make it a crime to not wear the mask and thus enforceable.  

[Ride-The-Waves]

2 minutes ago, clo said:

I WANT that to be the case. But will the passenger-jerk denies it will the powers that be bow to him.

Don't forget that cruise ships are not registered in the US and once on board you come under the jurisdiction of the state of registry.  To include places like Malta, Panama, etc.  

[clo]

3 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Don't forget that cruise ships are not registered in the US and once on board you come under the jurisdiction of the state of registry.  To include places like Malta, Panama, etc.  

I apologize. I wasn't clear. Would the captain off-load a passenger if he denies it happened?

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Don't forget that cruise ships are not registered in the US and once on board you come under the jurisdiction of the state of registry.  To include places like Malta, Panama, etc.  

 

Well, sorta.  If you really mean in the literal sense "once on board," you are still subject to the law of the country you're in until you leave said waters.