Mandate the vaccine and establish a realistic start date

[OceanCruise]

11 minutes ago, legaljen1969 said:

Not that it is anyone's business whether I have other underlying health issues, but I do.   My PCM is just cautious and wants to see a little more of the long view of what is going to happen. 

As recently as the past couple of weeks, news has come out about the vaccines causing swollen lymph nodes and advising women not to have their mammograms any sooner than 6 weeks after a vaccine because the lymph node swelling is likely to cause doctors to encourage moving forward with a biopsy. Not that it is bad to encourage a woman to have a biopsy, but having already been down that road with the scare of breast cancer- I can only imagine how frightening that could be for women who might have to go through that stress unneccesarily.   

They have not said I cannot get the vaccine or should not get the vaccine- just that they would prefer I definitely wait my turn and not be in a hurry to get the first available appointment.  I have a close friend who also had breast cancer and has never had any problems with lymphedema in the year since her surgery.  She got the shot (in the opposite side arm because, obviously, you don't do shots or blood draws or blood pressures in the surgical arm) and she ended up having serious lymphedema.  

I just want to have a longer view of the possible effects.   I guess people are comfortable getting the vaccine- and if it makes them feel safer that is fine.  However, right now knowing it could make me sicker I am willing to wait. 

This research article in December 2020 Microbiology and Infectious Disease Journal also discusses how the mRNA vaccines might create a risk later on for neurodegenerative conditions such as Alzheimer's or ALS. 

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

 

Additionally, the reason no vaccine has ever been approved for other coronaviruses  (i.e. SARS, MERS, common cold) is that in the animal trials, many of the animals died when later exposed to the virus they were vaccinated for (this effect is called antibody dependent enhancement/pathogenic priming). The Covid-19 vaccines were rushed to market and skipped the animal trials. There is no long-term data to know if this same phenomena will occur in humans.

 

[dani negreanu]

38 minutes ago, legaljen1969 said:

As recently as the past couple of weeks, news has come out about the vaccines causing swollen lymph nodes

 

My friend has had exactly this side effect on the vaccinated arm. It took 4-5 days to pass.

 

She was told that this is one of the rare side effects, but to be sure to link it to the vaccine and not, God forbid, to breast cancer....

 

[Ocean Boy]

2 hours ago, legaljen1969 said:

i wasn't demanding 100%. Someone said that there was data out there that said it was 100% you would not have to go to the hospital after a vaccine.   I just said that was awfully high "certainty" and that it was overly confident.  

Maybe you need to learn how to read. 

 

Funny!😄

 

It was your "sue" remark that I was commenting on.😉

[cured]

3 hours ago, OceanCruise said:

This research article in December 2020 Microbiology and Infectious Disease Journal also discusses how the mRNA vaccines might create a risk later on for neurodegenerative conditions such as Alzheimer's or ALS. 

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

 

Additionally, the reason no vaccine has ever been approved for other coronaviruses  (i.e. SARS, MERS, common cold) is that in the animal trials, many of the animals died when later exposed to the virus they were vaccinated for (this effect is called antibody dependent enhancement/pathogenic priming). The Covid-19 vaccines were rushed to market and skipped the animal trials. There is no long-term data to know if this same phenomena will occur in humans.

 

J.Bart Classen, MD is a rabid, batpoop (pun intended) crazy right-wing conspiracy theorist and antivaxxer. He runs the website vaccines.net.  

 

This is the opening paragraph on his webpage:

We are concerned that the current outbreak of COVID-19 is actually a bioweapon attack and may be linked to the US anthrax attack of 2001, which originated from the US army base Fort Detrick. We are concerned that the current outbreak of COVID-19 is actually a bioweapon attack and may be linked to the US anthrax attack of 2001, which originated from the US army base Fort Detrick. 

 

Anyone who pushes crazy conspiracy theories like that has absolutely no credibility.  His paper that is linked has absolutely no studies of his own. He just picks and chooses some wording from other studies.  His claim to fame is his theory that vaccines cause diabetes which has been widely debunked by other noted experts.

Since this is coming from an anti-vaxxer with debunked theories (his covid vaccine paper relies heavily on his theory of vaccines>>diabetes,) I am not at all worried about receiving the vaccine. 

 

This is the letter he sent to Trump in 2017 to stop vaccinations.  Note that he references that vaccines cause autism.  They do not. Even the Autism society says that is junk science.  Again, the guy has absolutely NO credibility.

Dear President Trump,

You campaigned on the promise of stopping government vaccine policies that have led to the injuries of millions of Americans. As you know  vaccines cause chronic immune disorders such as autism, diabetes, asthma, allergies and multiple different autoimmune diseases. Because of vaccines these diseases are increasing at epidemic proportions. It has been estimated that 50% of adults in the USA have diabetes or prediabetes. We challenge you to stop being distracted by career politicians who are responsible for this tragedy and live up to your campaign promise. Further delays in stopping this tragedy will only leave your administration culpable for these deaths and injuries.

The disastrous government vaccine policies can be stopped by the executive branch without the need of congressional action. The following are several simple solutions that your administration can implement immediately.

1. Stop the CDC from recommending immunization until adequate clinical trials are performed. Vaccines such as the hepatitis B vaccine were approved with less that 2 weeks of safety data. Newer vaccines are routinely approved by the FDA with less than 1 year of safety data and these trials are often too small and poorly controlled to detect rises in autism and diabetes. The CDC should be honest with the public about the complete lack of any data that vaccines improve health. 

2. Stop the FDA from approving new vaccines until proper clinical trials are performed. An adequate trial needs to include approximately 500,000 patients and follow each patient for at least 7 years. Half the patients should receive the vaccine of interest and half should receive a placebo control in its place. Current FDA sanctioned safety trials include comparison between groups receiving different vaccines. This trial design is like comparing arsenic to cyanide and concluding both are safe because the mortality is the same in both groups. The FDA should begin mandating that vaccines already approved based on flawed trial designs be removed from the market unless proper clinical trials are started immediately.

3. Have the US Attorney General investigate the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.  This program has been a total failure and millions who developed diabetes, autism, and other vaccine induced diseases have not been compensated. The program appears to be part of your so called  "Swamp". In one case a lawyer for a plaintiff was caught embezzling money from the vaccine fund by submitting a bogus expense report to the court. The lawyer was not disbarred and still practices before the vaccine court.

It is essential you live up to your campaign promises immediately and correct the dangerous government vaccine policies.

Sincerely,

J. Bart Classen, MD

Edited February 27, 2021 by cured

[firefly333]

Our news interviewed a 12 year old in a moderna trial. So refreshing. She was into theater and wanted her life back. Children want school back., she felt like she was helping the world get back to normal. Cheers to her. Turns out children volunteer much more readily than adults. They had a additional 1000 kids who volunteered over the needed amount. Go kids.

 

After all the whining and moaning from adults, I found it so nice to hear someone who wanted to do whatever it took to get life back to some sense of normal.

[webecruzin2]

On 1/28/2021 at 5:06 PM, karena1 said:

I laugh that everyone thinks this vaccine is the end all to be all.  Just like the flu shot!!!.  There are so many variations of this virus, just b/c you get it, does not mean you  will be protected, anymore than you are protected with the flu shot.  I will get the vaccine (even though I am totally against it) ONLY because I want to cruise again.  We have been traveling all over since June and neither one of us have had any issues at all.  In fact - until we go in March, when the stupid CDC has mandated we get a test to come back to the states, we have not even had a COVID test.  This will be the first for us.  But willing to put up with the CDC BS so we can continue to travel.  Just like we will put up with the requirement to get the Vaccine even though I don't think it will do anything more than a flu shot (which I have never had).  Unfortunately, we live in a stupid world right now, and the CDC wants to control everything.  So whether I like it or not, I will do what they mandate. We refuse to sit at home in a bubble and die.  We want to live, so will do what we have to so we can continue to travel.  I know I will get blasted because we don't live in fear, but I simply don't care anymore. I am totally over all this BS.  Get the country open and let people live again. My mother almost died last weekend of a stroke.  Thankfully, she will be fine.  But life is short - LIVE IT!

 

 

 

Ditto!👍

[broberts]

4 hours ago, OceanCruise said:

.... The Covid-19 vaccines were rushed to market and skipped the animal trials. There is no long-term data to know if this same phenomena will occur in humans.

 

 

Pants on fire false.

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9792931264&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjCk-aG9IjvAhVGA6wKHWlCD04QFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2TNCXQsmnnET5mNXNo1WXM

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.drugdiscoverytrends.com/pfizer-touts-non-human-preclinical-trial-results-for-covid-19-vaccine-candidate/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjCk-aG9IjvAhVGA6wKHWlCD04QFjACegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3NGdJBrE-K6eWXVNwjBd7R

[koolZip]

As soon as I see the words "live in fear" in someone's comment, I know that I can, with complete confidence, ignore everything else they have to say.

[d9704011]

18 minutes ago, koolZip said:

As soon as I see the words "live in fear" in someone's comment, I know that I can, with complete confidence, ignore everything else they have to say.

Agreed.... Also, ‘basement’.

[cured]

6 hours ago, OceanCruise said:

The vaccine is not FDA approved (only has emergency use authorization) and, as such, is considered an experimental treatment. Experimental treatments require consent of the individual and cannot be mandated or coerced according to Federal law and the Nuremberg Code. 

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/?utm_content=buffer5911c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter_o

The EEOC has already issued guidelines for Employers mandating vaccines. The issue has already been in front of the Supreme Court in 1905.

 

On December 16, 2020, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) issued guidance debunking prevailing wisdom and paving the way for employer-mandated vaccines. The EEOC dealt squarely with the issue of whether vaccines are “medical examinations” under the ADA and also addressed the intersection and applicability of various laws implicated by the availability of COVID-19 vaccinations, including the ADA, the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA) and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (and, specifically, religious accommodation thereunder).

Most notably, the EEOC posited that the administration of a COVID-19 vaccine to an employee by an employer, or by a third-party administrator on behalf of the employer, is not a “medical examination” under the ADA. The EEOC unequivocally expressed that “if a vaccine is administered to an employee by an employer for protection against contracting COVID-19, the employer is not seeking information about an individual’s impairments or current health status and, therefore, it is not a medical examination.” This position would seem to give private employer’s the green light to implement COVID-19 vaccine policies and require employees to be vaccinated as a condition to continued employment or, at the very least, as a condition to returning to the physical workplace.

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-guidance-covid-19-vaccinations-what-now-employers

Edited February 27, 2021 by cured

[broadwaybaby123]

Unfortunately, this may be the only way that the cruise lines will be able to sail again.  However, there will be loss of business on both sides: from those that can't (or won't) get the vaccine and those of us that do.  Those that don't get the vaccine may not be crazy about going on a ship until all restrictions are lifted.  However, there will be others who won't go on a cruise unless the vaccine is mandated.  It's a lose-lose for the cruise lines.

[broberts]

44 minutes ago, broadwaybaby123 said:

Unfortunately, this may be the only way that the cruise lines will be able to sail again.  However, there will be loss of business on both sides: from those that can't (or won't) get the vaccine and those of us that do.  Those that don't get the vaccine may not be crazy about going on a ship until all restrictions are lifted.  However, there will be others who won't go on a cruise unless the vaccine is mandated.  It's a lose-lose for the cruise lines.

 

I suspect it is less of a problem than one might think. While the no vaccine, no mask faction is very vocal I doubt the numbers are sufficient to make the cruise lines notice the loss.

[A&L_Ont]

9 hours ago, koolZip said:

As soon as I see the words "live in fear" in someone's comment, I know that I can, with complete confidence, ignore everything else they have to say.

 

9 hours ago, d9704011 said:

Agreed.... Also, ‘basement’.

And sheeple; add these three terms to a list of posts to avoid. 

[A&L_Ont]

15 hours ago, legaljen1969 said:

I just want to have a longer view of the possible effects.   I guess people are comfortable getting the vaccine- and if it makes them feel safer that is fine.  However, right now knowing it could make me sicker I am willing to wait. 

Thank-you for the explanation you clearly did not need to give. As time passes hopefully you will find out more to feel more comfortable with your decision. In the meantime continue to keep yourself safe. 

[time4u2go]

37 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

And sheeple; add these three terms to a list of posts to avoid. 

Also "the Fauci". 

[cured]

1 hour ago, time4u2go said:

Also "the Fauci". 

Can we also add Fow-Chi?

[Ocean Boy]

17 hours ago, legaljen1969 said:

Not that it is anyone's business whether I have other underlying health issues, but I do.   My PCM is just cautious and wants to see a little more of the long view of what is going to happen. 

As recently as the past couple of weeks, news has come out about the vaccines causing swollen lymph nodes and advising women not to have their mammograms any sooner than 6 weeks after a vaccine because the lymph node swelling is likely to cause doctors to encourage moving forward with a biopsy. Not that it is bad to encourage a woman to have a biopsy, but having already been down that road with the scare of breast cancer- I can only imagine how frightening that could be for women who might have to go through that stress unneccesarily.   

They have not said I cannot get the vaccine or should not get the vaccine- just that they would prefer I definitely wait my turn and not be in a hurry to get the first available appointment.  I have a close friend who also had breast cancer and has never had any problems with lymphedema in the year since her surgery.  She got the shot (in the opposite side arm because, obviously, you don't do shots or blood draws or blood pressures in the surgical arm) and she ended up having serious lymphedema.  

I just want to have a longer view of the possible effects.   I guess people are comfortable getting the vaccine- and if it makes them feel safer that is fine.  However, right now knowing it could make me sicker I am willing to wait. 

All of your concerns are completely legitimate. I also noted your previous mention of an oncologist and you are correct, it is no one's business. Personally, I wish we had longer term studies in the vaccine before making decisions on it and I think your PCP is wise and offering sound advice. As for me, I have had enough experience managing the virus to sway me toward the vaccine in general though I still have my concerns about it. However, every patient is different and needs to be assessed and managed as an individual. Cook book medicine doesn't, and never will, work.

[Ocean Boy]

18 hours ago, legaljen1969 said:

I would say they had it right.  There will always be another hurdle to returning to normal.  There is no sooner, only later.  Later and later and later.   We are never returning to "normal."  A "new normal" perhaps, but definitely a more restrictive and less humane one.  

At this point in time I am tempted to agree with you. The goals and the goal posts are contrantly being changed and moved further away. It all started with not overwhelming the medical system to then needing a vaccine. Once the vaccine arrived one still can't go back to normal because we don't know enough yet about the vaccine. And with all of this the politicans still can't grasp the reasons for resistance to vaccination. Who knows what rhe next goal is that will be set or how far down the field they will kick the ball.

 

Someday we will be back to normal. Hopefully it will be my sooner rather than your later.

 

 

[smokeybandit]

There definitely will be a new normal. But there will be some good changes, like the increase in acceptability of telemedicine. A lot of the new sanitation efforts will become common place (even though in hindsight it really doesn't help with covid) but will help for other surface borne diseases. Flexibility in the workplace to work from home will benefit a lot of people and their employers. 

People will have different definitions of what their new normal is. There will be a significant part of the population that will continue to wear masks in public for months if not years to come. People's personal space comfort zone will be expanded for many. 

[mek]

8 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

At this point in time I am tempted to agree with you. The goals and the goal posts are contrantly being changed and moved further away. It all started with not overwhelming the medical system to then needing a vaccine. Once the vaccine arrived one still can't go back to normal because we don't know enough yet about the vaccine. And with all of this the politicans still can't grasp the reasons for resistance to vaccination. Who knows what rhe next goal is that will be set or how far down the field they will kick the ball.

 

Someday we will be back to normal. Hopefully it will be my sooner rather than your later.

 

 

I too wonder what "normal" will be.  What happens next year when people come down with the flu?  Do they immediately run off to get a Covid test every time they get sick? Have we been programed to now avoid all illness? It really could become ridiculous.

[not-enough-cruising]

18 hours ago, OceanCruise said:

The vaccine is not FDA approved (only has emergency use authorization) and, as such, is considered an experimental treatment. Experimental treatments require consent of the individual and cannot be mandated or coerced according to Federal law and the Nuremberg Code. 

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/?utm_content=buffer5911c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter_o

NOT experimental- the FDA has a completely

different classification system and process for experimental VS EUA. 

Where have you seen anyone being vaccinated without consent? (that is illegal even for fully approved medications) 

 

Who has been coerced?

[cured]

43 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

There definitely will be a new normal. But there will be some good changes, like the increase in acceptability of telemedicine. A lot of the new sanitation efforts will become common place (even though in hindsight it really doesn't help with covid) but will help for other surface borne diseases. Flexibility in the workplace to work from home will benefit a lot of people and their employers. 

People will have different definitions of what their new normal is. There will be a significant part of the population that will continue to wear masks in public for months if not years to come. People's personal space comfort zone will be expanded for many. 

I am definitely thinking mask wearing will become a part of life. Not all the time, but similar to Asian nations where it is second nature to wear a mask when one has a cold or other illness and out in public.

 

I agree with everything else, telemedicine and working from home has been great for many.  We are both working from home and all the excess in the gas line item in the budget that never gets used is being moved to the cruising budget. Hopefully it will get used someday soon. 🙂

[Ellaleah]

14 hours ago, broadwaybaby123 said:

Unfortunately, this may be the only way that the cruise lines will be able to sail again.  However, there will be loss of business on both sides: from those that can't (or won't) get the vaccine and those of us that do.  Those that don't get the vaccine may not be crazy about going on a ship until all restrictions are lifted.  However, there will be others who won't go on a cruise unless the vaccine is mandated.  It's a lose-lose for the cruise lines.

I believe that requiring vaccination will be much less of a hurdle if all cruise lines require it.  It will be accepted if one wants to cruise and has no choice.

[BirdTravels]

As COVID moves from being a pandemic to an endemic, mask use and distancing will be encouraged. Some of my initial PPE was from the days of the H1N1 virus (moving from being N95 dust and pollen masks for yard work to lifesaving masks during the high spread periods of COVID). 
 

The vaccines, especially the new J&J vaccine only prevent you from becoming seriously (fatally) ill when you catch COVID. If the virus is still around, it will spread and make people mildly ill. And the goal will still be to prevent it from being around. 

[BSocial]

2 hours ago, cured said:

I am definitely thinking mask wearing will become a part of life...

 

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/greg-abbott-mask-order-end/285-a690a6b3-a7ea-4c95-99ba-0b3c3171c6df

Texas Mask mandate hasn’t ended yet, but under discussion and consideration, according to above link. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by BSocial
Fixed link