EU to Create Joint Vaccination Passport

[capriccio]

From a very recent article in the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/vaccine-passports-europe-travel/2021/03/17/65d645d4-8672-11eb-be4a-24b89f616f2c_story.html).  The European Union on Wednesday launched a closely watched effort to create a joint vaccination passport for its more than 440 million citizens and residents.

 

I don't know if it is behind a paywall but here are some of the highlights of the article:

 

• supporters hope it will be available by June to help rescue the summer season
• "passports" for vaccinated people will be digital or paper (not sure if it isn't determined yet or is a choice)
• modeled in some ways on the Israeli passes with QR codes allowing access to gyms and restaurants
• member states to determine conditions of use and if they will be mandatory
• The German and French stalling has frustrated officials in many southern European countries. Greece, Cyprus and other nations recently announced plans to set up bilateral agreements unless an E.U.-wide solution can be found.

[crazyank]

13 hours ago, capriccio said:

member states to determine conditions of use and if they will be mandatory

Hopefully they are mandatory

 

[Zach1213]

19 hours ago, capriccio said:

 

• The German and French stalling has frustrated officials in many southern European countries. 

 

Look, I know this is very serious, and I know why Greece, Cyprus, etc. are so eager...but man, 2021 is gonna be a weird one if Southern Europe/Greece/Cyprus is mad at Germany and France for being slow. Pot, meet kettle. 

[wowzz]

36 minutes ago, Zach1213 said:

 

Look, I know this is very serious, and I know why Greece, Cyprus, etc. are so eager...but man, 2021 is gonna be a weird one if Southern Europe/Greece/Cyprus is mad at Germany and France for being slow. Pot, meet kettle. 

The problem is that Germany and France have been unbelievably slow in rolling out the vaccine programme,  and those nations that want to speed up the process are being held back. The German and French governments cannot allow othe nations to proceed at a faster pace, as it shows up their own inadequacies. 

[Zach1213]

No no, I get it. I totally get it. It's just funny to me, someone intimately familiar with both Germany and Southern Europe, to see Southern Europe telling Germany they're too slow 🙂

 

I always make a joke, rooted in truth, about a company I regularly work with that has facilities in Spain, Germany, France, and UK. We often get them together in the same room, and tell them to be there at 9am. Germans are there at 8:45, Brits at 9, French at 9:20, and the Spaniards roll in about 9:30-9:45. And we occasionally get Greeks and Cypriots and assume they will be there for lunch 😉

Edited March 18, 2021 by Zach1213

[capriccio]

7 minutes ago, Zach1213 said:

No no, I get it. I totally get it. It's just funny to me, someone intimately familiar with both Germany and Southern Europe, to see Southern Europe telling Germany they're too slow 🙂

 

As someone who has lived in Germany, Belgium, Italy and Greece I agree that it seems like the EU world has turned upside down - at least on this subject.  Whether that is good or bad, I'll let them fight it out.

[ilikeanswers]

Ready by June is pretty optimistic. Vaccine production is still not high enough to roll out through Europe, even Russia is struggling to keep up with orders and then on top of that suspending Astra Zeneca there is no way they will be ready by June🙄.

[BruceMuzz]

The Japanese Government announced today that they will shortly introduce a smart phone app / vaccine passport. Since virtually everyone in Japan has a smartphone, this should work great.

[rkacruiser]

I have no problem with having to show a proof of vaccination against Covid in order to be able to travel.  It is the same type of requirement that one must have for travel for countries that require it due to Yellow Fever.

 

I do have a problem if this "proof" must be digitally shown on a smart phone.  I don't have a smart phone.  I am not alone in this category.  I do have a flip type cell phone and I do not want to invest into what a smart phone and its service provider is going to cost.  

 

What's wrong with using the "old fashioned" Yellow Folder that many of us have tucked into where our Passports are?  Have the CDC card included with this; maybe have our physician verify it somewhere in the Yellow Folder.  

 

That Yellow Folder has worked well for decades.  It can continue to fulfill its purpose in the 21st Century,

[BruceMuzz]

20 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

I have no problem with having to show a proof of vaccination against Covid in order to be able to travel.  It is the same type of requirement that one must have for travel for countries that require it due to Yellow Fever.

 

I do have a problem if this "proof" must be digitally shown on a smart phone.  I don't have a smart phone.  I am not alone in this category.  I do have a flip type cell phone and I do not want to invest into what a smart phone and its service provider is going to cost.  

 

What's wrong with using the "old fashioned" Yellow Folder that many of us have tucked into where our Passports are?  Have the CDC card included with this; maybe have our physician verify it somewhere in the Yellow Folder.  

 

That Yellow Folder has worked well for decades.  It can continue to fulfill its purpose in the 21st Century,

I guess you will just have to skip Japan in future.

[rkacruiser]

8 minutes ago, BruceMuzz said:

I guess you will just have to skip Japan in future.

 

If so, so be it.  There is only one other city where I would like to visit:  Nagasaki.  I would like to visit their Museum dealing with WW II and the Atomic Bomb and compare it with what I experienced in Hiroshima.  

[sanger727]

29 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

I have no problem with having to show a proof of vaccination against Covid in order to be able to travel.  It is the same type of requirement that one must have for travel for countries that require it due to Yellow Fever.

 

I do have a problem if this "proof" must be digitally shown on a smart phone.  I don't have a smart phone.  I am not alone in this category.  I do have a flip type cell phone and I do not want to invest into what a smart phone and its service provider is going to cost.  

 

What's wrong with using the "old fashioned" Yellow Folder that many of us have tucked into where our Passports are?  Have the CDC card included with this; maybe have our physician verify it somewhere in the Yellow Folder.  

 

That Yellow Folder has worked well for decades.  It can continue to fulfill its purpose in the 21st Century,

 

I think alot of people are getting these vaccine at places other than their doctor's office. So my physician signing and verifying my vaccination means very little since they will just be going off my word that I had it. Yes, I have my CDC card but those seem stupidly easy to forge. Unlike the yellow fever vaccine that where most people will never go to a country where a yellow fever vaccine is required, and those that do usually know about it before they book their trip. This is someone that everyone will be expected to have for international travel and is so polarizing in a debate on whether or not to get the vaccine. I don't think a simple paper form and/or my doctor saying that I said I got it will or should be sufficient.

[rkacruiser]

23 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I don't think a simple paper form and/or my doctor saying that I said I got it will or should be sufficient.

 

Well said in your post.  Then, why should a digital app of some type be accepted?  

[sanger727]

24 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Well said in your post.  Then, why should a digital app of some type be accepted?  

 

This would only be of value if the system was worked out so that the digital app entry was actually verified by the location where you got the vaccine. But I suspect it will be much easier for say, the Cincinnati Health Department (where I was vaccinated) to send the list of everyone they vaccinated to the CDC digital vaccination passport who can verify the entries vs me (and everyone else who was vaccinated) taking a physical piece of paper to the health department and trying locate someone who can look up the record and is willing to take the time to sign it.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

I do have a flip type cell phone and I do not want to invest into what a smart phone and its service provider is going to cost.  

 

Invest? You make it sound like you are buying a house 😂. Do you not have budget smartphones in your country or service providers? My dad as a AU$40 smartphone on a AU$120 a year plan giving him 2GB a month internet which is enough for email, basic apps, Google and even YouTube. 

[capriccio]

A smartphone need not be the only means.  QR codes can be sent to a smart phone via text or emailed and printed.  Airlines do that for reservations and I just made an appointment for lab tests with LabCorp that instructed me to show the QR code on my phone or bring in a paper copy to check in.  Of course for cruisers from the US the question would be what government entity would be responsible for maintaining the database.

[BoozinCroozin]

7 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

I have no problem with having to show a proof of vaccination against Covid in order to be able to travel.  It is the same type of requirement that one must have for travel for countries that require it due to Yellow Fever.

 

I do have a problem if this "proof" must be digitally shown on a smart phone.  I don't have a smart phone.  I am not alone in this category.  I do have a flip type cell phone and I do not want to invest into what a smart phone and its service provider is going to cost.  

 

What's wrong with using the "old fashioned" Yellow Folder that many of us have tucked into where our Passports are?  Have the CDC card included with this; maybe have our physician verify it somewhere in the Yellow Folder.  

 

That Yellow Folder has worked well for decades.  It can continue to fulfill its purpose in the 21st Century,

From a US perspective and I cannot speak from an other nations, the "paper" proof is so simple to create. There have been counterfeits available before the vaccine was even available. It is standard card stock that can be printed at any store. There is no real way to track authenticity. It is like I said for the US, they should have created a Covid vaccine database to track. Any agency that needs verification can access (those agencies have to be approved), enter the person's name and address, and all that is provided is a Yes or No that they were vaccinated Covid with no other information. If cruise lines were doing this, they would have access. Part of online registering requires agreement to allow the cruise line to access that information. If you decline, your booking is canceled. 

 

I understand the no smartphone aspect. There are more than one way to do things correctly. A vast majority that will travel have smartphones. Those that don't would need another method for proving vaccination. But, the index cards with random written information would not be a valid method in my opinion. They should have had unique QR codes on them that load the information to a database that can be scanned and recorded information.

[John Bull]

Just a layman's thoughts..................

 

Folk need a passport to go abroad, passports have chips and increasingly have finger-print and iris recognition so verification at immigration is by machine for those whose passports are suitable. 

I have a paper ESTA (a visa or an ESTA visa waiver is required to enter the USA) - but I've never been asked to show it at US immigration because it's electronically linked to my passport.

Could Covid vaccination not be electronically added to data on the passport chip? It would make verification seamless and forgery-proof. 

I appreciate that passports expire, as does the efficacy of a vaccination - but that can be overcome. If indeed they need to be overcome, because hopefully in the not-too-dim-and-distant future vaccination will mean that  herd-immunity will kick in and make vaccination a matter of belt-and-braces rather than necessity.

 

JB 🙂

[Zach1213]

12 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

I think alot of people are getting these vaccine at places other than their doctor's office.

 

I am literally the only person I know who happened to get an appointment at my actual doctor's office. It's a bigger network with about 15 offices in the area, but I was able to get an appointment at my exact location from the same nurse I always see. 

[Zach1213]

1 hour ago, John Bull said:

Just a layman's thoughts..................

 

Folk need a passport to go abroad, passports have chips and increasingly have finger-print and iris recognition so verification at immigration is by machine for those whose passports are suitable. 

I have a paper ESTA (a visa or an ESTA visa waiver is required to enter the USA) - but I've never been asked to show it at US immigration because it's electronically linked to my passport.

Could Covid vaccination not be electronically added to data on the passport chip? It would make verification seamless and forgery-proof. 

I appreciate that passports expire, as does the efficacy of a vaccination - but that can be overcome. If indeed they need to be overcome, because hopefully in the not-too-dim-and-distant future vaccination will mean that  herd-immunity will kick in and make vaccination a matter of belt-and-braces rather than necessity.

 

JB 🙂

 

I think it could be tough. Here's a couple things to remember:

 

• ESTA is not attached to your actual chip, but to the system, and when US immigration runs your passport, the system recognizes your chip and pulls up your ESTA. This is different than your chip itself independently knows it has an ESTA attached to it. 
• ESTA's and other visas are government issued. Covid vaccines often are not, depending on the country (or, if they are, it may not be the national government). So it may take a lot of work and extra steps to get evidence of a Covid vaccine from a doctor/clinic/local government to the national government to add it to a passport system. And that doesn't even include how difficult it may be in less developed countries in the world, which would make it even harder for many of them (who already usually have to deal with a cumbersome visa to visit other places) to get what they need to travel. I'm not being critical, but you're definitely viewing this part of the issue with first-world glasses on 🙂

 

If there's a way to add it to a digital system, great. However, I agree with previous posts about yellow fever - I've had one for most of my life and the piece of paper does work great, and I think the paper Covid card could work great too in the event that someone doesn't have a smartphone. I don't think the passport itself is the digital system to use for this, though. 

[John Bull]

18 minutes ago, Zach1213 said:

 

I think it could be tough. Here's a couple things to remember:

 

• ESTA is not attached to your actual chip, but to the system, and when US immigration runs your passport, the system recognizes your chip and pulls up your ESTA. This is different than your chip itself independently knows it has an ESTA attached to it. 
• ESTA's and other visas are government issued. Covid vaccines often are not, depending on the country (or, if they are, it may not be the national government). So it may take a lot of work and extra steps to get evidence of a Covid vaccine from a doctor/clinic/local government to the national government to add it to a passport system. And that doesn't even include how difficult it may be in less developed countries in the world, which would make it even harder for many of them (who already usually have to deal with a cumbersome visa to visit other places) to get what they need to travel. I'm not being critical, but you're definitely viewing this part of the issue with first-world glasses on 🙂

 

If there's a way to add it to a digital system, great. However, I agree with previous posts about yellow fever - I've had one for most of my life and the piece of paper does work great, and I think the paper Covid card could work great too in the event that someone doesn't have a smartphone. I don't think the passport itself is the digital system to use for this, though. 

 

I'll happily concede on the ESTA being in the passport system rather than the passport itself - but I don't understand why you think that makes any odds.

 

In the UK, its the government's National Health Service that takes care of vaccinations. That includes controlling and registering vaccinations at privately-run chemists (drugstores). I'm pretty sure its the same throughout Europe, and I'd be very surprised if the US govt doesn't know who's had or not had the vaccination -surely the vaccination places in the US don't just send the govt a note of how many ???

And in countries where the vast vast majority of vaccinations are carried out at comparatively few centres - numbers ranging upwards from a few thousand vaccinations - technology surely makes a central database of names pretty easy.

Plus the elimination of mass forgery. I just checked my YF card. No security features whatsoever, and just a simple rubber-stamp - hellfire I even hand-wrote my own personal details. And a much much bigger market for forged Covid vaccination cards rather than YF cards.

ESTA certs are also easy to forge - but because they're electronically linked to passports that'd be a waste of time.

 

So you've not convinced me.😉

And I agree with others that smart-phones aren't sufficiently inclusive.

But still open to other thoughts.

 

JB 🙂

 

[TheOldBear]

38 minutes ago, John Bull said:

 

I'll happily concede on the ESTA being in the passport system rather than the passport itself - but I don't understand why you think that makes any odds.

 

In the UK, its the government's National Health Service that takes care of vaccinations. That includes controlling and registering vaccinations at privately-run chemists (drugstores). I'm pretty sure its the same throughout Europe, and I'd be very surprised if the US govt doesn't know who's had or not had the vaccination -surely the vaccination places in the US don't just send the govt a note of how many ???

And in countries where the vast vast majority of vaccinations are carried out at comparatively few centres - numbers ranging upwards from a few thousand vaccinations - technology surely makes a central database of names pretty easy.

Plus the elimination of mass forgery. I just checked my YF card. No security features whatsoever, and just a simple rubber-stamp - hellfire I even hand-wrote my own personal details. And a much much bigger market for forged Covid vaccination cards rather than YF cards.

ESTA certs are also easy to forge - but because they're electronically linked to passports that'd be a waste of time.

 

So you've not convinced me.😉

And I agree with others that smart-phones aren't sufficiently inclusive.

But still open to other thoughts.

 

JB 🙂

 

 

I checked the paperwork I received after my first shot. It had info on the vaccine [Phizer] and some generic covid information. There was a link to a CDC page mentioning vaccine tracking. That page had links to state-by-state vaccine tracking.

The New York State page was for tracking vaccinations required for school attendance - nothing about covid vaccinations. Apparently this is handled by the same team responsible for the original NYS vaccine scheduling site - and likely Cunard's most recent web site makeover as well 😉

 

[rkacruiser]

19 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Invest? You make it sound like you are buying a house 😂. Do you not have budget smartphones in your country or service providers? My dad as a AU$40 smartphone on a AU$120 a year plan giving him 2GB a month internet which is enough for email, basic apps, Google and even YouTube. 

 

😄  Didn't want to make my comment seem quite like that.  But, yes, it did rather read that way.  That was my "cheap" side "speaking".  Yes, I have a low cost flip phone and a plan that provides me with 250 minutes a month for less than $18 a month.  I really don't want to spend more--and have no reason to spend--more than that amount of money on cellular communication.  I use the phone only for phone calls--primarily long distance; I will not give up my landline service simply because I want and feel that I need another service in case one goes out.  Which it has.  

 

I have done zero research on smart phones and the plans involved with them.  But, my impression based on the ads that I have seen is that the phone itself is expensive and the plans are confusing and can be expensive.  Android--Bluetooth--etc.--these terms are a foreign language to me.  My 2020 Buick knows more about "this stuff" than I do.  And, it is not a language that I choose to learn.  However, I am coming to realize--reluctantly--that it is a language that I may need to learn if I am going to travel again.  

[ldubs]

24 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

😄  Didn't want to make my comment seem quite like that.  But, yes, it did rather read that way.  That was my "cheap" side "speaking".  Yes, I have a low cost flip phone and a plan that provides me with 250 minutes a month for less than $18 a month.  I really don't want to spend more--and have no reason to spend--more than that amount of money on cellular communication.  I use the phone only for phone calls--primarily long distance; I will not give up my landline service simply because I want and feel that I need another service in case one goes out.  Which it has.  

 

I have done zero research on smart phones and the plans involved with them.  But, my impression based on the ads that I have seen is that the phone itself is expensive and the plans are confusing and can be expensive.  Android--Bluetooth--etc.--these terms are a foreign language to me.  My 2020 Buick knows more about "this stuff" than I do.  And, it is not a language that I choose to learn.  However, I am coming to realize--reluctantly--that it is a language that I may need to learn if I am going to travel again.  

 

I do have an iPhone, but still feel your pain.  May newer vehicle, which is not all that new, has a screen in the center of the dashboard with all kinds of options.  Some of the words are completely foreign to me.  Now, I've learned a lot more including voice commands which are incredibly extensive and useful. Yesterday, we were returning home from a Veterinary specialist in a town about 50 miles away.   I pushed a button and said "find Chipotle".   The screen listed several locations ranked by distance.   A talking car in my lifetime!  Haha  

 

I have to admit the more I learn about Smart Phone technology, the better off I am.   

[sanger727]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

😄  Didn't want to make my comment seem quite like that.  But, yes, it did rather read that way.  That was my "cheap" side "speaking".  Yes, I have a low cost flip phone and a plan that provides me with 250 minutes a month for less than $18 a month.  I really don't want to spend more--and have no reason to spend--more than that amount of money on cellular communication.  I use the phone only for phone calls--primarily long distance; I will not give up my landline service simply because I want and feel that I need another service in case one goes out.  Which it has.  

 

I have done zero research on smart phones and the plans involved with them.  But, my impression based on the ads that I have seen is that the phone itself is expensive and the plans are confusing and can be expensive.  Android--Bluetooth--etc.--these terms are a foreign language to me.  My 2020 Buick knows more about "this stuff" than I do.  And, it is not a language that I choose to learn.  However, I am coming to realize--reluctantly--that it is a language that I may need to learn if I am going to travel again.  

If you were interested in a smartphone I think you could get a similar prices plan to the one you have now. T-mobile offers a plan for 15 a month with 2 gig of data, talk, and text. 2gigs would be plenty for you.

 

you would have to outlay $100-$200 for the phone most likely. If you have no interest I can see why you wouldn’t want one. My mom refuses to get a smart phone. But they really do become helpful when you have one. Can get directions around traffic jams, can check what time the rain is going to start and you should leave the park early,  even as simple as being out and about and deciding you want to see a movie but don’t know what time it starts. 
 

ive never met someone that got a smartphone and went back to a flip phone because they didn’t like it. I’ve only met people with flip phones unwilling to try a smart phone. And as we move into the digital age they become more and more essential. But that’s just my 2 cents.