New CDC guidelines released 5/5/21

[Host Jazzbeau]

Can you really justify requirements like this in the CDC guidelines?

 

Frank Del Rio, CEO of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings (NCLH), expressed disappointment in the regulations, especially given NCLH's plan to operate ships with 100% of the crew and passengers vaccinated. 

"I am disappointed at first read. I'm going to give the CDC an opportunity to expand and clarify," he said on the company's earnings call May 6. "For example  even though everyone onboard would be vaccinated, in between bites of your meal and in between sips of your beverage, you have to put on your mask, take off your mask. So nobody should order soup because your mask might get sloppy. So that, to me, is just preposterous."

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/CDC-guidance-cruises-from-US?ct=cruise

[CroozFanatic]

The CDC could have some data points that they can't share. For example, they could have data from the US Navy.

[JeanieC,Aston]

5 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I've been as optimistic as anyone, but we now have enough 'scientific' data on the CDC to foresee that end date of October means nothing.  They have extended and extended, and seem determined to kill the cruise industry from US ports.

Being a Brit and having absolutely no idea about CDC reasoning.

Can someone explain why an organisation like CDC would want to kill the US cruise industry,,,,what’s the motive.

[Gracie115]

6 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I've been as optimistic as anyone, but we now have enough 'scientific' data on the CDC to foresee that end date of October means nothing.  They have extended and extended, and seem determined to kill the cruise industry from US ports.

 

Exactly, it's as if the CDC seems to think that the cruise industry has been in some sort of limbo since March 2020.  That they have learned nothing, that everything that happened then would happen again.  For heaven's sake when those tragic cruises occurred NO ONE knew what was happening in the world....look at what happened in NY/NJ/CT at the beginning of this pandemic....are we singling those states out for restrictive protocols because they didn't know what to do then either?  NO we're not...

 

But the "evil" cruise industry continues to pay because they didn't have the foresight to know how to handle a previously unknown virus.  Shame on them for not being prescient and having the solution before the rest of the world did.  🙄

[chengkp75]

Perhaps the requirements would not have been so "draconian" had the cruise lines, when the requirements were published a year ago, submitted their proposed action plans, say a year ago, so that dialog could have been started, say a year ago, and they could have been making the points that some of these requirements are overly onerous fiscally, and proposing alternatives that would meet both the CDC's mitigation requirement, and still be fiscally possible to obtain.  No, the cruise lines are not "evil", just typically lazy as most industry is when faced with regulation.  They wanted this to all blow over, and the longer it was seen that regulation and oversight would be required, the more "onerous" the requirements became, and the more they decided they had to dig in.

Edited May 9, 2021 by chengkp75

[nocl]

5 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Can you really justify requirements like this in the CDC guidelines?

 

Frank Del Rio, CEO of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings (NCLH), expressed disappointment in the regulations, especially given NCLH's plan to operate ships with 100% of the crew and passengers vaccinated. 

"I am disappointed at first read. I'm going to give the CDC an opportunity to expand and clarify," he said on the company's earnings call May 6. "For example  even though everyone onboard would be vaccinated, in between bites of your meal and in between sips of your beverage, you have to put on your mask, take off your mask. So nobody should order soup because your mask might get sloppy. So that, to me, is just preposterous."

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/CDC-guidance-cruises-from-US?ct=cruise

I would consider his statement about dining to be more hyperbole than reality based upon the language in the requirements.

 

The CDC uses the term extended in terms of mask use and dining. Which basically means that if one is actively eating or drinking a mask is not necessary. But that one can not abuse the fact that they might have a drink or food in front of them to avoid wearing a mask for extended periods. On a cruise this would mean that once some sits down they might need to wear a mask until their food arrives, and once they are finished put the mask back on, if they remain at the table taking. Maybe a worse put it on between courses while waiting, though I doubt even that. Certainly not between bites or while chewing.

 

 

[ipeeinthepool]

7 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I've been as optimistic as anyone, but we now have enough 'scientific' data on the CDC to foresee that end date of October means nothing.  They have extended and extended, and seem determined to kill the cruise industry from US ports.

This is certainly the worst case scenario and it appears more likely each day.

[Cruise a holic]

While we love cruising- we will wait- land vacations at resorts either in Mexico or the caribbean for us this year.  Next year we hope to cruise again.  Too much worry now.  Regardless of the CDC restrictions.  Not going to spend thousands of dollars to be a hostage on a cruise ship.

 

Have had the vaccine and we wear masks- It helps my hayfever also as an added benefit! 

[4774Papa]

6 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Can you really justify requirements like this in the CDC guidelines?

 

Frank Del Rio, CEO of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings (NCLH), expressed disappointment in the regulations, especially given NCLH's plan to operate ships with 100% of the crew and passengers vaccinated. 

"I am disappointed at first read. I'm going to give the CDC an opportunity to expand and clarify," he said on the company's earnings call May 6. "For example  even though everyone onboard would be vaccinated, in between bites of your meal and in between sips of your beverage, you have to put on your mask, take off your mask. So nobody should order soup because your mask might get sloppy. So that, to me, is just preposterous."

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/CDC-guidance-cruises-from-US?ct=cruise

We wear masks when going into places like pharmacies, grocery stores, hardware stores or Home Depot. Also, we wear masks when entering or leaving restaurants.   HOWEVER, once in the restaurant and seated, we take of the mask and enjoy our drinks and food and the company of friends.  When we flew to Texas recently, that was how people operated at PF Changs restaurant in the Atlanta Airport.  ALSO, in these restaurants there are likely people that have NOT been vaccinated.

 

Expecting people to put on and take off the mask  probably scores of times during dining is ridiculous.  If on a cruise with all or almost all vaccinated people when every restaurant that we have dine in over a year has operated like I described in my first paragraph.    I remember one idiot last year that was a political leader somewhere said you should have masks with straws so you could drink through your mask (Geeze)

 

 

[CroozFanatic]

Maybe the cruise lines didn't report everything they were asked to at the beginning of the pandemic. Maybe a few captains/executives looked the other way. Maybe the CDC is leery of letting them police themselves going forward.

 

Maybe there is just one high ranking guy in the CDC that hates the cruise industry for environmental reasons and he IS trying to destroy the cruise industry. He thinks he has a higher purpose, therefore, any measure is justified.

[ECCruise]

7 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Can you really justify requirements like this in the CDC guidelines?

 

Frank Del Rio, CEO of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings (NCLH), expressed disappointment in the regulations, especially given NCLH's plan to operate ships with 100% of the crew and passengers vaccinated. 

"I am disappointed at first read. I'm going to give the CDC an opportunity to expand and clarify,"

Lots of piling on Del Rio's assumptions here.

From "at first read" to poster after poster citing "between bites and sips" as the de facto CDC proclamation. 

 

But it is crucial that the CDC does exactly what FDR asks:  expand and clarify.  If they say, "yes, we do mean between bites and sips," I am with the "that is nuts" contingent.  If, however, they say they are simply looking to prevent people sitting for hours in the same place pretending they are eating or drinking, then this has all been a tempest in a teapot. 

[NMTraveller]

8 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Can you really justify requirements like this in the CDC guidelines?

 

Frank Del Rio, CEO of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings (NCLH), expressed disappointment in the regulations, especially given NCLH's plan to operate ships with 100% of the crew and passengers vaccinated. 

"I am disappointed at first read. I'm going to give the CDC an opportunity to expand and clarify," he said on the company's earnings call May 6. "For example  even though everyone onboard would be vaccinated, in between bites of your meal and in between sips of your beverage, you have to put on your mask, take off your mask. So nobody should order soup because your mask might get sloppy. So that, to me, is just preposterous."

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/CDC-guidance-cruises-from-US?ct=cruise

No I don't think that you can justify the CDC guidelines.

 

If 100% of the people are vaccinated on the ships, improved air filtration, etc., the ship is safer than being at work or on a USA land vacation or at an airport.

 

The ships are 10x cleaner than any of the above.

Edited May 9, 2021 by NMTraveller

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, ECCruise said:

Lots of piling on Del Rio's assumptions here.

From "at first read" to poster after poster citing "between bites and sips" as the de facto CDC proclamation. 

 

But it is crucial that the CDC does exactly what FDR asks:  expand and clarify.  If they say, "yes, we do mean between bites and sips," I am with the "that is nuts" contingent.  If, however, they say they are simply looking to prevent people sitting for hours in the same place pretending they are eating or drinking, then this has all been a tempest in a teapot. 

Restaurants in my state have a 90 minute time limit for dining, mask comes off and stays off while at the table.  Cruise restaurant can do the same.

[Ken the cruiser]

For me I could care less what NCLH is saying as it has no bearing on what Celebrity is actually doing with regards to submitting the Phase 2A port/health agreements to the CDC to get the Edge ready for their potential Phase 4 "restricted sailing" cruises out of Ft Lauderdale by mid July. I realize this article is referencing comments by NCL, but hopefully Celebrity is quietly "walking the walk" to get it done.

 

Cruise lines scramble to complete CDC Phase 2A port/health agreements (seatrade-cruise.com)

 

I did notice this past week the Edge did make it back to PortMiami to get their crew onboard vaccinated, along with some other Celebrity ships, and is now hanging out with the others nearby to pop back in when it's time for their second shots.

 

CELEBRITY EDGE Current Location (cruisemapper.com)

 

I also noticed all of the Edge's Inside and Oceanview cabins have been recently marked as Sold Out, hopefully in preparation for 50% capacity Phase 4 restricted cruises. But it would definitely be nice to hear that their Phase 2A agreements have been submitted for approval to the CDC and they're opting for the 95%/98% option to bypass the test cruises. That's what I'm waiting for anyway ...    

 

 

[deckchair traveler]

On 5/7/2021 at 1:45 PM, Dwight1 said:

Just read the guidelines. Absolutely awful. Masks even outside, no prolonged drinking or eating , no tours on your own. My next cruise is 2/22/2022. Payment due 11/23. I will forfeit my non refundable deposit and cancel if not changed by then. I will go on Windstar out of St Martin and screw the CDC, cruises out of the US are doomed with these guys. Foreign ports are the answer,

I suspect that's the point (dooming cruises), as cruising doesn't fit with the new administration's climate hysteria. So they just regulate it to death.

[markeb]

9 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Can you really justify requirements like this in the CDC guidelines?

 

Frank Del Rio, CEO of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings (NCLH), expressed disappointment in the regulations, especially given NCLH's plan to operate ships with 100% of the crew and passengers vaccinated. 

"I am disappointed at first read. I'm going to give the CDC an opportunity to expand and clarify," he said on the company's earnings call May 6. "For example  even though everyone onboard would be vaccinated, in between bites of your meal and in between sips of your beverage, you have to put on your mask, take off your mask. So nobody should order soup because your mask might get sloppy. So that, to me, is just preposterous."

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/CDC-guidance-cruises-from-US?ct=cruise

 

And you have read the primary source from the CDC?

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html

 

Instead of a news release?

 

The language in the operations manual is certainly open to interpretation but doesn't say anything at all like what Del Rio is stating and you're quoting. And since none of the cruise lines have applied to cruise under the CSO, no one knows what's really going to be required. But I'm pretty confident it won't be the ridiculous exaggeration in Del Rio's statement. Maybe if he'd shut up and let his people who work with federal agencies on the VSP handle this, he'd actually be able to get a ship sailing from a US port.

[K.T.B.]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Perhaps the requirements would not have been so "draconian" had the cruise lines, when the requirements were published a year ago, submitted their proposed action plans, say a year ago, so that dialog could have been started, say a year ago, and they could have been making the points that some of these requirements are overly onerous fiscally, and proposing alternatives that would meet both the CDC's mitigation requirement, and still be fiscally possible to obtain.  No, the cruise lines are not "evil", just typically lazy as most industry is when faced with regulation.  They wanted this to all blow over, and the longer it was seen that regulation and oversight would be required, the more "onerous" the requirements became, and the more they decided they had to dig in.

 

They submitted plans back in September.  Carnival Corp, RCG, and NCLH all submitted them as it put forth via CLIA.  This was all pre-vaccine.  Here's what they submitted:

 

• Testing. 100% testing of passengers and crew prior to embarkation.
• Mask-Wearing. Mandatory wearing of masks by all passengers and crew onboard and during excursions whenever physical distancing cannot be maintained.
• Distancing. Physical distancing in terminals, on board ships, on private islands and during shore excursions.
• Ventilation. Air management and ventilation strategies to increase fresh air onboard and, where feasible, using enhanced filters and other technologies to mitigate the risk of infection.
• Medical Capability: Risk-based response plans tailored for each ship to manage medical needs, dedicated cabin capacity allocated for isolation and other operational measures, and advance arrangements with private providers for shoreside quarantine, medical facilities, and transportation.
• Shore Excursions: Only permitting shore excursions according to the cruise operators’ prescribed protocols, with strict adherence required of all passengers and denial of re-boarding for any passengers that do not comply.

 

That's not being lazy.  Lazy is the response from the CDC taking 7 months.  In the 7 month wait for the CDC to come back to them with....SOMETHING.... people have been getting vaccinated.  It seems the CDC has ignored this and taken the plan above and re-submitted back to the cruise lines, but with "steroids".

 

I admit, 99.9999% of the time the cruise lines just want things to go away and won't be proactive, but not this time.  A place was submitted. Cruises have been happening under the above plan in Europe and the Mediterranean where only 50 people out over 400,000+ passengers have gotten Covid.  Again, all pre-vaccine.

 

The cruise lines are ready.  They have plans in place.  The CDC doesn't.  Based on their current rules and recommendations to the cruises lines, they're still in August of 2020.  Plus they completely contradict recommendations that they themselves issued less than 2 weeks ago!

 

Jazzbeau hit the nail on the head:  They have extended and extended, and seem determined to kill the cruise industry from US ports.

 

The lines, the crew members, all the employees, and the potential passengers all have a right to be pissed at the CDC.  These rules are draconian and onerous, but, most of all, they're completely and 100% out of touch with the current situation with people being vaccinated.

 

I have always respected your opinion, but in this one case you missed the mark on who culprit was in being lazy.

[paulh84]

Does everyone needs a Xanax? The rage is out of control. 
 

Can anyone point to an agreement that a cruise line is committed to and has approached the CDC formally to introduce 100% vaccinated cruises? And no, Del Rio’s dramatics are not it. Perhaps he’s still crying about restaffing his ships during the height of the pandemic and having to repatriate a second time. 

Until there is firm agreement on 100% vaccination (not 95 or 97 or 99%) these guidelines aren’t going anywhere. Remember, Robert Redfield, of the prior administration, wanted the NSO (not the CSO) to run through at least February 2021.  
 

As of right now, these guidelines apply to cruises that will run approximately 90 days. That is it. 90 days. If the CSO expires or is relaxed, what date does November 1 coincide with? Roughly the typical restart of the Caribbean season from the US. The timeline so far is pretty clear. According to Fain, CDC engaged in further discussion when roughly 50% of the US population had started vaccinations which was also day 99 of the new administration. They gave a path to restart (restricted, key word) cruises by mid summer. Now cruise lines need to get to it.
 

The guidelines in place are really no different than anywhere else in the world. If you look at the Singapore cruises  that so many people want to use as the shining example, guess what, you have to mask up by the pool. The guidelines are nearly identical. 

[Ride-The-Waves]

20 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

They submitted plans back in September.  Carnival Corp, RCG, and NCLH all submitted them as it put forth via CLIA.  This was all pre-vaccine.  Here's what they submitted:

 

• Testing. 100% testing of passengers and crew prior to embarkation.
• Mask-Wearing. Mandatory wearing of masks by all passengers and crew onboard and during excursions whenever physical distancing cannot be maintained.
• Distancing. Physical distancing in terminals, on board ships, on private islands and during shore excursions.
• Ventilation. Air management and ventilation strategies to increase fresh air onboard and, where feasible, using enhanced filters and other technologies to mitigate the risk of infection.
• Medical Capability: Risk-based response plans tailored for each ship to manage medical needs, dedicated cabin capacity allocated for isolation and other operational measures, and advance arrangements with private providers for shoreside quarantine, medical facilities, and transportation.
• Shore Excursions: Only permitting shore excursions according to the cruise operators’ prescribed protocols, with strict adherence required of all passengers and denial of re-boarding for any passengers that do not comply.

 

That's not being lazy.  Lazy is the response from the CDC taking 7 months.  In the 7 month wait for the CDC to come back to them with....SOMETHING.... people have been getting vaccinated.  It seems the CDC has ignored this and taken the plan above and re-submitted back to the cruise lines, but with "steroids".

 

I admit, 99.9999% of the time the cruise lines just want things to go away and won't be proactive, but not this time.  A place was submitted. Cruises have been happening under the above plan in Europe and the Mediterranean where only 50 people out over 400,000+ passengers have gotten Covid.  Again, all pre-vaccine.

 

The cruise lines are ready.  They have plans in place.  The CDC doesn't.  Based on their current rules and recommendations to the cruises lines, they're still in August of 2020.  Plus they completely contradict recommendations that they themselves issued less than 2 weeks ago!

 

Jazzbeau hit the nail on the head:  They have extended and extended, and seem determined to kill the cruise industry from US ports.

 

The lines, the crew members, all the employees, and the potential passengers all have a right to be pissed at the CDC.  These rules are draconian and onerous, but, most of all, they're completely and 100% out of touch with the current situation with people being vaccinated.

 

I have always respected your opinion, but in this one case you missed the mark on who culprit was in being lazy.

You have the actual submitted documents to back up your diatribe?

 

As chengkp75 stated, the cruise lines have purposely delayed responding to any requirement to return to cruising as they don't want the oversight while operating in and out of US ports.  All the CDC is doing is trying to keep America and Americans safe.

 

Additionally, HOST Jazzbeau is a representative of the cruise industry as a "host" on CC and comments should be considered in that light.

 

Cruise lines must adhere to CDC requirements and guidelines before they can return to US ports, just as they must adhere to EU requirements when cruising from or into EU ports.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Ride-The-Waves

[K.T.B.]

4 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

You have the actual submitted documents to back up your diatribe?

 

As chengkp75 stated, the cruise lines have purposely delayed responding to any requirement to return to cruising as they don't want the oversight while operating in and out of US ports.  All the CDC is doing is trying to keep America and Americans safe.

 

Additionally, HOST Jazzbeau is a representative of the cruise industry as a "host" on CC and comments should be considered in that light.

 

Cruise lines must adhere to CDC requirements and guidelines before they can return to US ports, just as they must adhere to EU requirements when cruising from or into EU ports.

 

I copied and pasted what was submitted in September.  i certainly did not type all that from memory.  So that's word for word what the cruise lines submitted to the CDC.  For which they received radio silence.

[ECCruise]

1 hour ago, LGW59 said:

Restaurants in my state have a 90 minute time limit for dining, mask comes off and stays off while at the table.  Cruise restaurant can do the same.

That would work.  

 

But it is up to the CDC to clarify.  Since the mandates were just announced 3 days or so ago, hoping they realize that they need to get in front of this quickly.  I realize that cruise rules are only a small part of their overall responsibility and carry and overweighted influence here for obvious reasons, but it is definitely an issue.

 

Their credibility has been damaged with many prior to this, and this isn't helping.

[markeb]

15 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

I copied and pasted what was submitted in September.  i certainly did not type all that from memory.  So that's word for word what the cruise lines submitted to the CDC.  For which they received radio silence.

 

Which wasn't a plan, and much of the content is actually in the various guidance and requirements from the CDC.

 

The requirement is a plan: who, what, when, where, etc. 

[LGW59]

30 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

Does everyone needs a Xanax? The rage is out of control. 
 

Can anyone point to an agreement that a cruise line is committed to and has approached the CDC formally to introduce 100% vaccinated cruises? And no, Del Rio’s dramatics are not it. Perhaps he’s still crying about restaffing his ships during the height of the pandemic and having to repatriate a second time. 

Until there is firm agreement on 100% vaccination (not 95 or 97 or 99%) these guidelines aren’t going anywhere. Remember, Robert Redfield, of the prior administration, wanted the NSO (not the CSO) to run through at least February 2021.  
 

As of right now, these guidelines apply to cruises that will run approximately 90 days. That is it. 90 days. If the CSO expires or is relaxed, what date does November 1 coincide with? Roughly the typical restart of the Caribbean season from the US. The timeline so far is pretty clear. According to Fain, CDC engaged in further discussion when roughly 50% of the US population had started vaccinations which was also day 99 of the new administration. They gave a path to restart (restricted, key word) cruises by mid summer. Now cruise lines need to get to it.
 

The guidelines in place are really no different than anywhere else in the world. If you look at the Singapore cruises  that so many people want to use as the shining example, guess what, you have to mask up by the pool. The guidelines are nearly identical. 

Does everyone needs a Xanax? The rage is out of control.  If you are giving them away, I'll take two please.

[kirtihk]

11 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I've been as optimistic as anyone, but we now have enough 'scientific' data on the CDC to foresee that end date of October means nothing.  They have extended and extended, and seem determined to kill the cruise industry from US ports.

And also come October a new flu season will start; so... I am tired of typing about the same outcome of this purposely created craziness.

[CroozFanatic]

The CDC are bureaucrats and Walenksy seems very ambitious. Remember Susan Rice was considered for Vice President. She knows anything could happen. If you think Walensky doesn't wake up thinking she might be President, you're naive.

 

Inaction won't be remembered, error will not be forgiven.