I'm beginning to think the CDC may very well lose the lawsuit that Florida initiated

[ontheweb]

I have posted several times in response to those extolling the chances of the lawsuit being won by Florida (and Alaska added) that the courts give great weight to regulatory agencies and expecting the CDC to lose especially during a pandemic was fanciful. But, now I note that they just lost a lawsuit by landlords opposing the not being able to force tenants to leave for non payment of rent. The CDC claimed this would cause homelessness, and that would lead to the spread of Covid. The courts did  not see the connection with Covid, and ruled in favor of the landlords. Now looking at some of the requirements that seem to be in the new order such as putting your mask on between bites of food or sips of a beverage that are so opposite of the general direction of what is allowed after vaccinations, it does seem that they may very well become so arbitrary and capricious to have judges say you have gone too far. JMHO.

 

They may very well be suffering from what Hank has described as once power is achieved, governmental officials just do not want to let it go.

[Aplmac]

We learn as we go, regarding this wretched virus.

 

About a week ago, I saw (or read) something

that indicated that the likelihood of contracting Covid-19/20/21

from exposed surfaces .. is a lot less than previously thought.

 

It seems more and more

that the inter-personal touch is necessary.

You and I must shake hands, breathe the same air, stuff like that.
So.. no more casual sex: no more huggy-kissy(ladies are already suffering).

Bummerrrrr!

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I have posted several times in response to those extolling the chances of the lawsuit being won by Florida (and Alaska added) that the courts give great weight to regulatory agencies and expecting the CDC to lose especially during a pandemic was fanciful. But, now I note that they just lost a lawsuit by landlords opposing the not being able to force tenants to leave for non payment of rent. The CDC claimed this would cause homelessness, and that would lead to the spread of Covid. The courts did  not see the connection with Covid, and ruled in favor of the landlords. Now looking at some of the requirements that seem to be in the new order such as putting your mask on between bites of food or sips of a beverage that are so opposite of the general direction of what is allowed after vaccinations, it does seem that they may very well become so arbitrary and capricious to have judges say you have gone too far. JMHO.

 

They may very well be suffering from what Hank has described as once power is achieved, governmental officials just do not want to let it go.

 

Personally, I see a much bigger risk (and proven connection) between people dining indoors and COVID-19 transmission than I do with the problematic order to hold off on evictions. I wouldn't necessarily think the CDC position will be mooted -- in normal times, among logical thinkers. But these days, who knows??

 

By the way, there is nowhere in the CDC guidance for simulated and restricted voyages where they specifically say masks must be put on between every bite or sip. By the wording used, I rather think they had in mind that -- knowing how MDR service runs course by course, they are suggesting that when there are waits in between courses, masks should be worn again. Which, if you are willing to accept some degree of mask-wearing onboard is going to be required initially in ANY event, doesn't seem like a bridge too far. 

 

What the wording ACTUALLY says is this:  

 

"While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order."  (emphasis mine.)

 

(Or perhaps it is a knowing wink to those who have heroically tried to get around the CDC order about mask wearing on planes by making a single pack of peanuts last for an entire flight....)

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by cruisemom42

[slidergirl]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I have posted several times in response to those extolling the chances of the lawsuit being won by Florida (and Alaska added) that the courts give great weight to regulatory agencies and expecting the CDC to lose especially during a pandemic was fanciful. But, now I note that they just lost a lawsuit by landlords opposing the not being able to force tenants to leave for non payment of rent. The CDC claimed this would cause homelessness, and that would lead to the spread of Covid. The courts did  not see the connection with Covid, and ruled in favor of the landlords. Now looking at some of the requirements that seem to be in the new order such as putting your mask on between bites of food or sips of a beverage that are so opposite of the general direction of what is allowed after vaccinations, it does seem that they may very well become so arbitrary and capricious to have judges say you have gone too far. JMHO.

 

They may very well be suffering from what Hank has described as once power is achieved, governmental officials just do not want to let it go.

I did not find anywhere in the new orders which require masking between bites of food or sips of a beverage. All I could find was this bit in the "Operations Manual for Simulated and Restricted Voyages Under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order" :

 

 

Mask Use

At this time, all persons, including port personnel, crew, and passengers (including those that are fully vaccinated) are advised that CDC’s Mask Order remains in effect and requires the wearing of masks on conveyances entering, traveling within or leaving the United States, and in U.S. transportation hubs (see Maritime-specific Frequently Asked Questions).

• While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order.
• Masks do not have to be worn while inside one’s own cabin

 

I don't see the "between bites."  I think it means you take it off for the entire meal or when you're sitting at the bar/table for a long time.  Nothing different from what it is now, at least where I live.  

 

I there is someplace else that shows the mandate, I'd appreciate the link. 

 

[slidergirl]

6 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Personally, I see a much bigger risk (and proven connection) between people dining indoors and COVID-19 transmission than I do with the problematic order to hold off on evictions. I wouldn't necessarily think the CDC position will be mooted -- in normal times, among logical thinkers. But these days, who knows??

 

By the way, there is nowhere in the CDC guidance for simulated and restricted voyages where they specifically say masks must be put on between every bite or sip. By the wording used, I rather think they had in mind that -- knowing how MDR service runs course by course, they are suggesting that when there are waits in between courses, masks should be worn again. Which, if you are willing to accept some degree of mask-wearing onboard is going to be required initially in ANY event, doesn't seem like a bridge too far. 

 

What the wording ACTUALLY says is this:  

 

"While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order."  (emphasis mine.)

 

(Or perhaps it is a knowing wink to those who have heroically tried to get around the CDC order about mask wearing on planes by making a single pack of peanuts last for an entire flight....)

 

 

 

Cynthia - you and I were looking at the same thing at the same time!!!  You hit "submit" before I did!!

[CruiserBruce]

@slidergirland @cruisemom42, you just hit on a major problem right now. People throw out hyperbole as fact, and others just run with it. Facts and science get thrown in the trash. So people get away with totally false claims simply because they make the hyperbole seem an affront to everyone's sensibilities...even when totally false.

[TNcruising02]

Removing your mask and then putting it back on several times during an extended meal service is ridiculous.  As it is now, people can go into a restaurant and enjoy a long meal without that requirement.  People can sit out by the pool at a hotel without a mask.  Even the people with NLC, who agreed to 100% vaccinated cruises, were very upset to find out about the ridiculous requirements for cruise lines. This isn't just a few people on CC.

Reasonable requirements would be using those same rules for land based restaurants, hotels, and pools.  However, that's not the case even if the cruise lines agree to 100% vaccinated cruises.  

Constantly touching a mask throughout dinner is disgusting and counter productive.

Edited May 9, 2021 by TNcruising02

[slidergirl]

36 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Removing your mask and then putting it back on several times during an extended meal service is ridiculous.  As it is now, people can go into a restaurant and enjoy a long meal without that requirement.  People can sit out by the pool at a hotel without a mask.  Even the people with NLC, who agreed to 100% vaccinated cruises, were very upset to find out about the ridiculous requirements for cruise lines. This isn't just a few people on CC.

Reasonable requirements would be using those same rules for land based restaurants, hotels, and pools.  However, that's not the case even if the cruise lines agree to 100% vaccinated cruises.  

Constantly touching a mask throughout dinner is disgusting and counter productive.

I don't know about all y'all in Tennessee, but where I live, this is exactly what we do with our masks when we go out to dinner.  Maybe that's why we've been successful in keeping ourselves and our tourist guests fairly healthy...

Surely you' ve learned how to put your mask on and off by using the bands and not the mask itself...

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

(Or perhaps it is a knowing wink to those who have heroically tried to get around the CDC order about mask wearing on planes by making a single pack of peanuts last for an entire flight....)

 

Thanks for the idea!  Relating that to a cruise situation, I can visualize myself sitting at the Ocean Bar with my beverage of choice and a container of peanuts eating one peanut at a time for quite a period of time.  😀

 

1 hour ago, TNcruising02 said:

Removing your mask and then putting it back on several times during an extended meal service is ridiculous.

 

I agree.  I chose to call such a "requirement" idiotic.  

[Aquahound]

I'm fairly center-of-the-road regarding the mask debate, but I do have to say that the notion of replacing your mask between bites while sitting at a dining table is one of the most idiotic suggestions I've seen throughout this entire COVID ordeal.  Nothing about it makes any sense.  Just my humble opinion.  

 

 

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

So people get away with totally false claims simply because they make the hyperbole seem an affront to everyone's sensibilities...even when totally false.

 

Unfortunately, that's been the trend with pretty much everything in the past year.  

Edited May 9, 2021 by Aquahound

[evandbob]

What might be even worse than the thought of having to wear masks inside on a ship post vaccination is perhaps having to listen to some cruisers arguing about it, pro or con.  Airline attendants say their biggest headache is passenger intransigence on this issue, and if the diners at a table are vocally resisting MDR staff's directions about mask usage, their vocalizations will surely affect other diners' meals.

 

Carrying the argument to absurd lengths such as unmask, take a bite, mask up, unmask, take a bite, mask up only shows how ignorant some will be about this issue.  Of course, this absurdity is not in the guidelines, just in the minds of the reductio ad absurdum crowd.

[CruiserBruce]

38 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

I'm fairly center-of-the-road regarding the mask debate, but I do have to say that the notion of replacing your mask between bites while sitting at a dining table is one of the most idiotic suggestions I've seen throughout this entire COVID ordeal.  Nothing about it makes any sense.  Just my humble opinion.  

 

 

But the rules don't suggest that. Sounds like you fell for the hyperbole. 

[CruiserBruce]

42 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Thanks for the idea!  Relating that to a cruise situation, I can visualize myself sitting at the Ocean Bar with my beverage of choice and a container of peanuts eating one peanut at a time for quite a period of time.  😀

 

 

I agree.  I chose to call such a "requirement" idiotic.  

Are we not reading the thread? There IS NO requirement to put mask on between bites!

[ontheweb]

OK, how about the pool requirement? You can swim without a mask as long as no one is within 6 feet. Please tell me how you are going to do this? If someone comes within 6 feet of you, where are you keeping the mask you are about to put on? Does a wet mask even do anything? And in case you think I am making this one up, Cruises: CDC issues latest guidelines on face masks, social distancing (usatoday.com)

[CruiserBruce]

20 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

OK, how about the pool requirement? You can swim without a mask as long as no one is within 6 feet. Please tell me how you are going to do this? If someone comes within 6 feet of you, where are you keeping the mask you are about to put on? Does a wet mask even do anything? And in case you think I am making this one up, Cruises: CDC issues latest guidelines on face masks, social distancing (usatoday.com)

That is capacity control in the pool.

[slidergirl]

51 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

OK, how about the pool requirement? You can swim without a mask as long as no one is within 6 feet. Please tell me how you are going to do this? If someone comes within 6 feet of you, where are you keeping the mask you are about to put on? Does a wet mask even do anything? And in case you think I am making this one up, Cruises: CDC issues latest guidelines on face masks, social distancing (usatoday.com)

Sigh.  

 

From the same CDC document that Cruisemom42 and I used to find the mask at dining:

• Ensure bathers wear masks while congregating outside of recreational water facilities (RWFs) and while seated on the pool deck area. Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family.

 

 

[Roz]

2 hours ago, slidergirl said:

I don't know about all y'all in Tennessee, but where I live, this is exactly what we do with our masks when we go out to dinner.  Maybe that's why we've been successful in keeping ourselves and our tourist guests fairly healthy...

Surely you' ve learned how to put your mask on and off by using the bands and not the mask itself...

 

That is not the protocol in TN.  

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

OK, how about the pool requirement? You can swim without a mask as long as no one is within 6 feet. Please tell me how you are going to do this? If someone comes within 6 feet of you, where are you keeping the mask you are about to put on? Does a wet mask even do anything? And in case you think I am making this one up, Cruises: CDC issues latest guidelines on face masks, social distancing (usatoday.com)

 

Please read the REAL requirements. I cannot believe how the news is getting away with reporting these half snippets of information that are designed to inflame public sentiment.

 

Here is what is ACTUALLY in the CDC document:

 

"Ensure bathers wear masks while congregating outside of recreational water facilities (RWFs) and while seated on the pool deck area. Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family."

 

Some people in other threads have had a laugh about the CDC feeling there was a need to include the fact that masks do not need to be worn in the water because they do not work in the water...  Now I can see why they included the wording!  😂

[cruisemom42]

14 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Sigh.  

 

From the same CDC document that Cruisemom42 and I used to find the mask at dining:

• Ensure bathers wear masks while congregating outside of recreational water facilities (RWFs) and while seated on the pool deck area. Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family.

 

 

 

This is getting eerie!  Quit reading my mind!!  😉

[TNcruising02]

41 minutes ago, Roz said:

 

That is not the protocol in TN.  

Exactly.  I have never heard of putting a mask back on after being seated in between servings.  I've been to a lot of restaurants over this past year and managed to not get covid while having my mask off for the entire meal.  I guess some people just like to keep their mask on constantly.

Edited May 9, 2021 by TNcruising02

[ontheweb]

41 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Please read the REAL requirements. I cannot believe how the news is getting away with reporting these half snippets of information that are designed to inflame public sentiment.

 

Here is what is ACTUALLY in the CDC document:

 

"Ensure bathers wear masks while congregating outside of recreational water facilities (RWFs) and while seated on the pool deck area. Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family."

 

Some people in other threads have had a laugh about the CDC feeling there was a need to include the fact that masks do not need to be worn in the water because they do not work in the water...  Now I can see why they included the wording!  😂

DW is a lap swimmer, but she swims slowly. What is she supposed to do when someone who swims faster than her gets within 6 feet of her?

 

Are the lifeguards going to stop this from happening? Oh wait, there are no lifeguards. Maybe the CDC should just shut down all the pools for that reason alone.

[cruisemom42]

6 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

DW is a lap swimmer, but she swims slowly. What is she supposed to do when someone who swims faster than her gets within 6 feet of her?

 

Can't say I am familiar with many cruise ships with pools large enough (and with few enough people just standing in them) to swim laps...

 

If there is a lap pool on the ships you cruise, then I assume they would have swim lanes marked and swimmers passing each other could just face opposite directions for the one moment of passing?

Edited May 9, 2021 by cruisemom42

[mom says]

8 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

DW is a lap swimmer, but she swims slowly. What is she supposed to do when someone who swims faster than her gets within 6 feet of her?

 

Are the lifeguards going to stop this from happening? Oh wait, there are no lifeguards. Maybe the CDC should just shut down all the pools for that reason alone.

Has common sense become that uncommon?

- who swims laps in a ship pool? 4 strokes and its time to turn. If its that necessary, then swim early or late to minimize others in the pool

- if the pool is crowded, don't get in. 

- if someone else is doing laps, then you do yours on the other side of the pool. 

- if someone is swimming laps too close to you, and you were there first, ask them to distance themselves 

 

And finally, there may not be lifeguards, but there are pool attendants.  One would hope they will monitor and restrict both pool and hot tub capacity. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by mom says

[ontheweb]

10 minutes ago, mom says said:

Has common sense become that uncommon?

- who swims laps in a ship pool? 4 strokes and its time to turn. If its that necessary, then swim early or late to minimize others in the pool

- if the pool is crowded, don't get in. 

- if someone else is doing laps, then you do yours on the other side of the pool. 

- if someone is swimming laps too close to you, and you were there first, ask them to distance themselves 

 

And finally, there may not be lifeguards, but there are pool attendants.  One would hope they will monitor and restrict both pool and hot tub capacity. 

Who swims laps in a ship pool? I told you my DW does, obviously it has to be a lot of them.

 

NCL has proposed cruises in which everyone is vaccinated, passengers and crew. Why given all the CDC has said lately about the safety of those who are vaccinated, do all these nitpicking rules have to then be in place?